What Are People Doing for UKARA Nowadays?

[gunbod007]

Funny this, seems a while back there was a thread on just cos where everyone poo pood it as bollocks, seems to have worked here so what gives? 

Yeah it is accepted by quite a few sites at the moment

Zero one

Wolf Armouries

Airsoftworld 

Action hobbies - I think

 

[Adolf Hamster]

the reason it expires is simply that people quit the hobby.

all things considered £25 a year is a drop in the ocean compared to the level of spending this hobby sucks up and to my mind it is worth it for the benefits of adding legitimacy to our hobby.

the issue is that for airsoft specifically, is there any other alternative? this cosplay malarkey as has been mentioned is pretty shakey and afaik (read: citation needed) the re-enacement memberships are supposed to be limited to stuff that's relevant to that particular group (ie if you're a ww2 re-enactor it doesn't cover post 1945 kit). i can see why some shops are folding to it though, for them it's a case of survival.

arguably the current situation should merit some extensions to current ukara memberships because not everyone had the chance to renew last summer/autumn during the 2 days we were allowed out to play.

 

[gunbod007]

the reason it expires is simply that people quit the hobby.

all things considered £25 a year is a drop in the ocean compared to the level of spending this hobby sucks up and to my mind it is worth it for the benefits of adding legitimacy to our hobby.

the issue is that for airsoft specifically, is there any other alternative? this cosplay malarkey as has been mentioned is pretty shakey and afaik (read: citation needed) the re-enacement memberships are supposed to be limited to stuff that's relevant to that particular group (ie if you're a ww2 re-enactor it doesn't cover post 1945 kit). i can see why some shops are folding to it though, for them it's a case of survival.

arguably the current situation should merit some extensions to current ukara memberships because not everyone had the chance to renew last summer/autumn during the 2 days we were allowed out to play.

I agree that UKARA should consider the situation when considering renewals, It's a shame there is seemingly no guidance on new applications or amendments to the entry criteria.

I think it will put off a lot of people from entering the sport/hobby, but then covid did that anyway.

 

[Lozart]

At least JustCos gives you PL insurance for your £25.

Yep exactly, now I know I am a legit cosplayer

FTFY

 

[AlphaBear]

I am not knocking FS at all, just surprised such a seemingly easy thing to do would be accepted by them, knowing how rigorously they investigate other defences.

I must admit even I was a tad surprised when I logged on the other day but hey ho. Sales are needed. I’m sure the proper due diligence will be done. 
.

.

Anyway,  UKARA is there for a reason. It’s our way of self regulation to a degree. Otherwise we will end up like Australia and running around with Gel Blasters. It just takes one person to act like an idiot and bring our hobby into disrepute. 

 

[L3wisD]

So all you had to do is upload a picture of a photo ID, upload a picture of you in a costume, and pay your £20 ?

Yep exactly

But... Did you get any email from an actual insurance underwriter?

If for example a police officer asks to see your defence to check it's validity, without confirmation from insurance underwriters, it's the equivalent to saying you paid £20 for some bloke at the site to vouch for you.

 

[gunbod007]

But... Did you get any email from an actual insurance underwriter?

If for example a police officer asks to see your defence to check it's validity, without confirmation from insurance underwriters, it's the equivalent to saying you paid £20 for some bloke at the site to vouch for you.

No email, but in your profile there's the "Certificate of insurance" and policy from Zurich.

As far as I was aware by the writings of the VCRA there's nothing wrong with owning a RIF and you don't need a valid defence to own one. It is the sale and importing of them. 

Again could be wrong but I think the liability is also on the seller. So even if I didn't have insurance docs I think a police officer searching my home wouldn't have any grounds to ask for my defence.

Could totalllllly be wrong about this but that has always been my reading of the law.

 

[SSPKali]

No email, but in your profile there's the "Certificate of insurance" and policy from Zurich.

As far as I was aware by the writings of the VCRA there's nothing wrong with owning a RIF and you don't need a valid defence to own one. It is the sale and importing of them. 

Again could be wrong but I think the liability is also on the seller. So even if I didn't have insurance docs I think a police officer searching my home wouldn't have any grounds to ask for my defence.

Could totalllllly be wrong about this but that has always been my reading of the law.

That is my understanding too, it is a way of retailers covering their a**. A players "defence" if ever asked by the police would likely be site booking emails / pictures from game days. 

 

[gunbod007]

I can actually add some weight to this.

I had police ask if they could speak to me. Because someone I used to associate with, who had seen the RIFs in my home had informed them that I had some kind of firearm. Two non armed police officers came to my door, no warrant, and politely explained and asked if they could see said firearm. Upon discovering it was a RIF they chuckled, had no further questions, didn't ask for a defence and simply left.

 

[Speedbird_666]

Anyway,  UKARA is there for a reason. It’s our way of self regulation to a degree. Otherwise we will end up like Australia and running around with Gel Blasters. It just takes one person to act like an idiot and bring our hobby into disrepute. 

UKARA is there to support the retailers. And only the retailers.

I think the situation is somewhat different in the UK compared to Australia. We are allowed to own devices that can fire projectiles at relatively safe speeds (say, compared to airguns), it's the realistic shape and colour that causes the issue. If RIFs are banned, then Airsoft could continue with Nerf shaped/coloured guns as a hobby. Many would hate it and sack it off, but the basic gameplay concept could continue.

 

[gunbod007]

UKARA is there to support the retailers. And only the retailers.

I think the situation is somewhat different in the UK compared to Australia. We are allowed to own devices that can fire projectiles at relatively safe speeds (say, compared to airguns), it's the realistic shape and colour that causes the issue. If RIFs are banned, then Airsoft could continue with Nerf shaped/coloured guns as a hobby. Many would hate it and sack it off, but the basic gameplay concept could continue.

100% The law is actually written in a way that benefits players a lot I think. It is the retailer who just has to make some effort to prove it was sold to someone with a valid excuse/defence from the VCRA. 

It could have been way harsher and said to simple own a RIF you must be registered or licensed.

Back to the OP for a sec, I think your best forms of "Valid defence" that you can get easily right now with lockdown is probably going to be

1: Just Cos 

2: Sportmans association.

I think sportsman's is more wild accepted but don't quote me on that and it is more expensive.

I have Just Cos. Have only been declined by one retailer who doesn't even accept sales through their website and Facebook only...

 

[AlphaBear]

UKARA is there to support the retailers. And only the retailers.

I think the situation is somewhat different in the UK compared to Australia. We are allowed to own devices that can fire projectiles at relatively safe speeds (say, compared to airguns), it's the realistic shape and colour that causes the issue. If RIFs are banned, then Airsoft could continue with Nerf shaped/coloured guns as a hobby. Many would hate it and sack it off, but the basic gameplay concept could continue.

Hey speedy, let's hope it never comes to that! Nerfs!!! 

Upon reflection you're probably right about UKARA being a retailer benefit scheme in one sense of the word... but as a hobby we do self regulate which is inadvertently enforced by the sites we play at and then indirectly by the sensible actions we take as players... But going back to the topic of what to do for UKARA these days, if one is a regular player at a site I can't see why the site won't renew you... we are in exceptional times after all.... For new players I acknowledge it's a different kettle of fish. No one likes a two tone lets face it. But it's a necessity and the framework is there for a reason, whether you agree or not. Ideally the news guys have to get their three games in when airsoft starts up again just like we all had to do....  That is only fair and that's how it should be..... but you know what human nature doesn't work that way does it? 

100% The law is actually written in a way that benefits players a lot I think. It is the retailer who just has to make some effort to prove it was sold to someone with a valid excuse/defence from the VCRA. 

It could have been way harsher and said to simple own a RIF you must be registered or licensed.

Back to the OP for a sec, I think your best forms of "Valid defence" that you can get easily right now with lockdown is probably going to be

1: Just Cos 

2: Sportmans association.

I think sportsman's is more wild accepted but don't quote me on that and it is more expensive.

I have Just Cos. Have only been declined by one retailer who doesn't even accept sales through their website and Facebook only...

You have a Spider man costume don't you? Own up! Go on..... #busted ?

 

[Dogsbody100]

I was tempted by this just cos thing but on reflection I’m going to hold off and do the UKARA thing when it’s all back to normal(ish) again. 
 

Can’t use the gun at all so what’s the rush?

That and I just don’t want any way for trouble to find me when it comes to guns of any kind.

 

[Speedbird_666]

No one likes a two tone lets face it. But it's a necessity and the framework is there for a reason, whether you agree or not. Ideally the news guys have to get their three games in when airsoft starts up again just like we all had to do....  That is only fair and that's how it should be..... but you know what human nature doesn't work that way does it?

I agree with you.

But playing devils advocate - I can see why retailers are suddenly opening up their 'Acceptable Defenses', even if said defenses are wafer thin compared to UKARA and the 3 game rule.

We are currently in a time where it will be (for the next few months at least) impossible for new, or *some* existing players to gain or renew their UKARA-based defense. Retailers probably realise that with less 'new blood' UKARA-registered players and fewer existing renewed players, that their big ticket sales will take a slump at some point, soon - if not already**

In combination with supply/shipping issues from Asia, Brexit and Covid-19, they are probably thinking 'let's widen the nets as far as we can get away with' to capture as many sales as possible, even from those with a questionable 'defense'.

It's not for me to judge the ethics and legality of what they are doing, but being 'fair' to existing UKARA-registered players is most likely the least of their priorities ATM.

** I should think that sales boomed during Lockdowns last year, but look at the special offer sales that some of the retailers had to do after Xmas - some of the RIF prices must of been waaay under trade price.

 

[AlphaBear]

I agree with you.

But playing devils advocate - I can see why retailers are suddenly opening up their 'Acceptable Defenses', even if said defenses are wafer thin compared to UKARA and the 3 game rule.

We are currently in a time where it will be (for the next few months at least) impossible for new, or *some* existing players to gain or renew their UKARA-based defense. Retailers probably realise that with less 'new blood' UKARA-registered players and fewer existing renewed players, that their big ticket sales will take a slump at some point, soon - if not already**

In combination with supply/shipping issues from Asia, Brexit and Covid-19, they are probably thinking 'let's widen the nets as far as we can get away with' to capture as many sales as possible, even from those with a questionable 'defense'.

It's not for me to judge the ethics and legality of what they are doing, but being 'fair' to existing UKARA-registered players is most likely the least of their priorities ATM.

** I should think that sales boomed during Lockdowns last year, but look at the special offer sales that some of the retailers had to do after Xmas - some of the RIF prices must of been waaay under trade price.

Words of wisdom and logic there matey. 
 

Tell you one thing that wasn’t reduced. TM recoils. Not a sausage. In fact it seems prices crept up a wee bit unless it was a 416c but they just look pants (opens flood gates). ?

 

[Speedbird_666]

Tell you one thing that wasn’t reduced. TM recoils. Not a sausage.

Well, you wouldn't want the Riffraff being able to join the hallowed TM Master Race now, would you? ?

 

[gunbod007]

I was tempted by this just cos thing but on reflection I’m going to hold off and do the UKARA thing when it’s all back to normal(ish) again. 
 

Can’t use the gun at all so what’s the rush?

That and I just don’t want any way for trouble to find me when it comes to guns of any kind.

I have used it and the liability is all on the seller. You aren't at risk

 

[Tommikka]

It is likely that retailers have widened the 'defences' they will accept to work around the problems under Covid.

There could be a get out clause for retailers if they accept Cosplay insurance - they could establish that they reasonably checked the buyer has insurance via membership, and reasonably assumed their are a valid cosplayer.

If a person buys Cosplay insurance just for the easy purchase of documentation then a retailer that got caught out could push back the blame to the buyer for fraud.

For Cosplay, a 'professional/celebrity' can qualify under VCRA with the theatrical defence, and arguably an organised CosPlay society could.

Its a stretch to claim the reenactment defence for a  Cosplay society:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-violent-crime-reduction-act-2006-commencement-no-3-order-2007-firearms-measures

The regulations also specify the persons who can claim the defence for historical re-enactment. This is restricted to those organising or taking part in re-enactment activities for which third party liability insurance is held.

Its laughable that the two ComiCons (Glasgow Comicon & Capital Comicon) that JustCos promote ban RIFs in their CosPlay rules

https://showmastersevents.com/index.php/cosplay-guidelines

(Assuming that their dead link for Glasgow Comicon is Showmasters Glasgow Comicon rather than a now defunct different Comicon)


Not Allowed

• Firearms
  
• Realistic Replica Firearms
  

Allowed

• Non realistic weapons
  
• Replica firearms with a red/orange tip
  The tip must be clear and visible from a distance
  

https://www.capitalscificon.co.uk/cosplay-contest.html

1. No functional weaponry can be used as a prop. (This includes and not limited to BB guns/paintball guns/knives/katanas/nerf guns/daggers etc)2. All prop guns must have the barrel covered with bright tape or a plastic cap.

(Arguably they both allow for a RIF and adding the tip as the American orange tip is voided under the VCRAs >50% requirement)

You would need to disable an airsoft RIF and add a tip or tape to qualify.

A Cosplay society might not organise its own group insurance and require members to use JustCos, but then only individuals would be insured and not as a group/society.  (Unless JustCos insurance covers that, but the information isn't available without first signing up and potentially discovering the insurance is unsuitbable for your needs.)

The only thing JustCos show on the website claiming they insure for is if you scare someone:

https://www.just-cos.co.uk

Just-Cos is a membership based insurance policy. We approached them with a view to covering CosPlayers with Public Liability insurance in their right as a re-enactor to wear and carry costume articles that may prove alarming or ‘scary’ to third parties who may not understand our purpose. This policy particularly covers the right to carry imitation weaponry that could otherwise be mistaken as real or mistakenly reported as an offensive weapon.

Good luck with getting an insurance underwriter to pay out because you were a dick on the way to Comicon and scared the general public - and the prosecution for having it in public view.

Whereas genuine reenactment insurance covers the reality of personal and public liability:

https://www.sportscoverdirect.com/insurance/re-enactment-insurance/

The attraction to re-enactment is the ability to recreate historical scenes, battles and the living environment of our ancestors. Many re-enactments take place as close to the original battlefield or site to increase the authenticity. Due to the realistic nature of the combats, many are open to the public to watch and increases the appeal in taking part. Although most of the combat used is not realistic in the sense of causing damage or using practices which are aimed in hurting your opponent, the risk of an injury or accident occurring is still present. Taking out personal insurance before getting involved in re-enactment is recommended to ensure you are protected.

 

[Armo1000]

People pay for UKARA yearly?! Lol what? 

I never payed for UKARA and my local site updates it whenever i ask. 

 

[Speedbird_666]

People pay for UKARA yearly?! Lol what? 

I never payed for UKARA and my local site updates it whenever i ask. 

Technically, you don't pay for UKARA. You pay your site's membership fee. But some sites add an 'Admin' charge for updating the database for you.

I pay £13 for yearly membership to GZ and that's it. Membership also drops the price by £5 per game day, so you recoup the money after three visits.