Wet Gun problem!

[Snakeeyes75]

Hey all, I went to my second skirmish yesterday in Worthing and it was pretty abysmal weather! about a third of the guys buggered off at lunchtime leaving about 40 or so players. I stayed on as I wanted to get my money's worth! about an hour from the end my G&G T4 started dry firing every 8-12 rounds, When I got hoome I striped the gun down to the gearbox and dried everything, there was only a couple of drops of water on the top of the box but it all seemed dry, the motor was nice and clean/dry as was the hop unit, basically it was about 95% wet on the inside. Before I verture into the gearbox (or pay someone to do so) Is there anything that could be a simple solution? I've cleaned all my mags thoroughly and it seems to do the same on all meaning it must be the gun itself. ANy help welcome!

Please,Please,Please,Please,Please don't just say "Well you shouldn't have got it wet!".

 

[jcheeseright]

chuck it in the airing cupboard for a couple of days and try again, no need to open it up for a bit of moisture.

 

[Samurai]

If the water doesn't short circuit the battery, then it should be fine. The dry fire might be caused by some other problem.

 

[Chock]

It's my guess that ironically, the dry firing was probably wet firing, in the sense that the presence of the water was likely causing a blockage or feed jam, whereupon the shot where no BB came out would be blasting the water out of the feed mechanism, clearing the jam and causing it to work once more, until the water built up again. So long as wet electrics didn't short anything out, it will probably be none the worse for wear after having been dried out thoroughly. If all else fails, apply as a freelancer for the CIA or KGB and tell them you are interested in 'wet work'. h34r:

 

[Snakeeyes75]

Thanks for the response guys, yeah i'll be leaving it near (But not right against) a radiator, i've put a packet of silica gel into the magwell too just for good measure.

I took off the barrel and hop again just to see if there was something really obvious, only thing I spotted was that one of the O clips that hold the green hop wheels on had popped off (I found it in the case though luckily). For a while it was still doing it but then it seems to have calmed down. Like you all say though, it's more than likely some water in the barrel, I remember at one point firing nothing but water!

 

[Ian_Gere]

At less than 12V, although there can technically be a short circuit, the resistance of the water is so high that the current takes 'the path of least resistance' ie down the wires, so it doesn't make much difference - just a slight loss of power. Not the case with a hardwired MOSFET though - in that case the command voltage need not be particularly high so a wet short across the trigger could cause the gun to fire on its own.

As James said above, there's no need to disassemble a gun for a bit of water, but you should thoroughly clean the barrel once it has dried because the evaporation may well leave a solid residue.

 

[Snakeeyes75]

Afrais to say that the problem seems to be continuing! I put over 1000 BB's through the gun without issue then it started dry firing again! After getting Basil Faulty batsh*t crazy with it I tool the barrel off to see if there was anything obviously wrong, NOTHING. Put it back together and it worked fine for a while anf then it started again! I'm stumped!! Could there be a missing gear tooth?? I was considering converting it to a DMR next year, atleast the Gearbox would be pulled apart!

 

[Lozart]

Obvious question but have you cleaned the barrel out?

 

[Ian_Gere]

Hmmmm... you are sure that the BB's are feeding from your mag/s properly? Does it do the same with different mags? It does sound as if the BB's are not getting into the hop chamber, assuming by 'dry firing' you mean firing with an empty hop chamber, rather than just that no BB comes out. If it fires but no BB comes out and it sounds dull (a deeper thud than when you fire a BB usually, and much deeper than the sharper crack of firing with no BB), then it means the BB is getting jammed in the hop unit - check your settings, try turning it the opposite way because you may inadvertantly have it full on. If you get no joy by messing with hop settings, you'll have to disassemble the barrel and hop unit, take the rubber off and inspect it - it may be damaged.

It's unlikely to be the gearbox, unless your piston head has failed so badly that you're not getting enough compression to actually fire a BB past the hop. But that is possible.

It isn't the gears.

 

[chris555]

its dry firing the damp conditions have caused a short best thing to do is gut the wiring and clean the contacts with 99.9% alcohol then re wire that should solve the problem (how i would solve it on a car or bike)

 

[Snakeeyes75]

Hmm, Well the Mags I'm using are MAG brand mags, they've been faultless for the first 6000 BB's. When I say "Dry firing" I mean it's sounding like firing the gun with no BB in the chamber. Then sometimes 2 Bb's roll out so maybe they're getting jammed? Yes, the barrel has been been cleaned out so It's not that. One thing I noticed is that the nozzle doesn't always end it's cycle in the "Open" position, is that an issue?

 

[Ian_Gere]

its dry firing the damp conditions have caused a short best thing to do is gut the wiring and clean the contacts with 99.9% alcohol then re wire that should solve the problem (how i would solve it on a car or bike)

Mate, i rarely feel the need to do this, but in the interests of readers who may be just getting into airsoft, WTF are you talking about? How in the name of physics can the electrical circuit cause BB's to misfeed or affect the compression? In fact, HTF can the circuit be the problem when it does fire?

It does nobody any good to answer queries when you haven't got a clue what you're on about.

 

[Ian_Gere]

No, the nozzle position at the end of firing isn't an issue - it's common in guns without MOSFETs for the gearbox cycle to stop part way through when firing full auto.

It sounds like a feed issue and unfortunately it has just happened at the same time as it got damp, rather than being caused by it. When the gun fired after the problem first occurred, how was the power? As normal / reduced a bit / reduced a lot?

What battery are you using? If you are using a high voltage, and/or a high speed motor, then the gearbox cycle can be so fast that it does not allow BB's to pop up out of the mag before the nozzle is back against the hop rubber - there is an easy fix for this.

You should also check that when the mags are inserted the feed from the mag fits properly into the hop chamber feed tube, so that the little latch which holds the BB's back is fully pressed out of the way. When you fit a mag and pull it out, do a few BB's roll out of the hop chamber?

 

[Snakeeyes75]

No, the nozzle position at the end of firing isn't an issue - it's common in guns without MOSFETs for the gearbox cycle to stop part way through when firing full auto.

It sounds like a feed issue and unfortunately it has just happened at the same time as it got damp, rather than being caused by it. When the gun fired after the problem first occurred, how was the power? As normal / reduced a bit / reduced a lot?

What battery are you using? If you are using a high voltage, and/or a high speed motor, then the gearbox cycle can be so fast that it does not allow BB's to pop up out of the mag before the nozzle is back against the hop rubber - there is an easy fix for this.

You should also check that when the mags are inserted the feed from the mag fits properly into the hop chamber feed tube, so that the little latch which holds the BB's back is fully pressed out of the way. When you fit a mag and pull it out, do a few BB's roll out of the hop chamber?

Ok, so firstly the gun is a Gen 3 with a MOSFET, I understand where you're coming from so I tried using the original Hi-cap that came with the gun, same issue. Power wise there was no change (When I first got the gun I tried using the G&G mags and they were awful, mainly due to a poor fit and the power would be all over the place.) Since using the MAG brand mag I've had zero issues till now.

I'm using a 9.6v NiMh

Yes, when I clip a mag in then take it out about 3/4 BB's fall out. Although there's a bit of wiggle on the Mag.

 

[Ian_Gere]

OK, G&G Gen 3's are designed to work with 7.4V LiPo's so it could well be that the gb is cycling too fast for the BB's to pop up. The way around this is called a delayer chip, delayer clip, or tappet plate delayer - it's a little thing that clips onto the sector gear so that when the cam peg rotates to pull the tappet plate back, the plate is held back for a few milliseconds longer.

There are broadly 2 main types: a brass circle, or a plastic jigsaw piece type shape - IMO the plastic ones are better because you can fit them either way around, which means that the delay happens predominantly before the current set up or after the current set up, which gives you a tuning option - they are also easier to shape if it does not quite fit onto your sector gear (although fuck me if SHS haven't upped the ante and made a steel one).

If you're unsure about opening your gearbox, and over t'internet i'm far from certain that my diagnosis is correct, you could try ye olde gremlin defeating strategy of just disassembling the offending parts, cleaning them, greasing where necessary, and reassembling them - this often corrects problems without people really knowing what the issue was. But then again, if your gun is under warranty, you could send it back and have them look at it.

Another approach would be to try it with a lower voltage battery and see if that improves BB feed. It may be that the gun getting wet did do something, but it may have just been that running the gun in has increased the cycle speed. I dunno, but from this info, this is my best guess.

 

[Snakeeyes75]

OK, G&G Gen 3's are designed to work with 7.4V LiPo's so it could well be that the gb is cycling too fast for the BB's to pop up. The way around this is called a delayer chip, delayer clip, or tappet plate delayer - it's a little thing that clips onto the sector gear so that when the cam peg rotates to pull the tappet plate back, the plate is held back for a few milliseconds longer.

There are broadly 2 main types: a brass circle, or a plastic jigsaw piece type shape - IMO the plastic ones are better because you can fit them either way around, which means that the delay happens predominantly before the current set up or after the current set up, which gives you a tuning option - they are also easier to shape if it does not quite fit onto your sector gear (although f*ck me if SHS haven't upped the ante and made a steel one).

If you're unsure about opening your gearbox, and over t'internet i'm far from certain that my diagnosis is correct, you could try ye olde gremlin defeating strategy of just disassembling the offending parts, cleaning them, greasing where necessary, and reassembling them - this often corrects problems without people really knowing what the issue was. But then again, if your gun is under warranty, you could send it back and have them look at it.

Another approach would be to try it with a lower voltage battery and see if that improves BB feed. It may be that the gun getting wet did do something, but it may have just been that running the gun in has increased the cycle speed. I dunno, but from this info, this is my best guess.

Firstly, thanks for your thoughtful reply. I do have a spare 8.4v battery so I'll give that a go. I have to admit though I'm a little confused by the 7.4 Lipo, being a possible cure. I thought that Lipo's have a much better "Burst" rate than a standard battery hence the lower voltage. Would this not increase the problem? Unfortunately I've pulled the gun apart enough to void any warranty so I'll probably be taking it to my local dealer (Combat South) if I can't sort the issue out. I was thinking about converting it into a DMR so Whilst they have the gearbox open they might as well upgrade the spring!

Where do I get a Delay plate? I'm still new to this so sourcing stuff is like a big void for me

 

[Sitting Duck]

Delay plate goes on sector gear and keeps tappet plate back a little longer to help

ensure a bb is loaded - the tappet plate/nozzle returns well before the piston fires

but even on semi sometimes the gears can overrun when it stops and by then the tappet

plate is starting to pull back - but this can look like it hasn't returned properly

when in fact it is now starting its next cycle - nozzle is pulling back

I'm no expert but a complete noob - if you haven't opened box and still has seal on it then try

to return it - you paid good money and that toptech box and gun that cost a few bob should

have not gone faulty so quickly and should of been ok once dried out

if the shop gives you any crap - well if it didn't screw up so quickly then I wouldn't have tried to clean it

don't mention anything about damp or rain - it shouldn't have caused this much hassle once dried out

but don't let the retailer fob you off as you got it wet - so don't mention that crap

you paid good money and it should have lasted a bit longer and all that - try the return or speak to them

I am still learning but even I only mess with cheapo guns coz usually so far i end up making them worse - lol

don't put up with it or pay out to quickly coz it should be lasting better even with a bit of rain

(don't mention rain ffs - it just jammed n all that, seemed to clear itself but then dry fired now n then)

 

[Snakeeyes75]

Delay plate goes on sector gear and keeps tappet plate back a little longer to help

ensure a bb is loaded - the tappet plate/nozzle returns well before the piston fires

but even on semi sometimes the gears can overrun when it stops and by then the tappet

plate is starting to pull back - but this can look like it hasn't returned properly

when in fact it is now starting its next cycle - nozzle is pulling back

I'm no expert but a complete noob - if you haven't opened box and still has seal on it then try

to return it - you paid good money and that toptech box and gun that cost a few bob should

have not gone faulty so quickly and should of been ok once dried out

if the shop gives you any crap - well if it didn't screw up so quickly then I wouldn't have tried to clean it

don't mention anything about damp or rain - it shouldn't have caused this much hassle once dried out

but don't let the retailer fob you off as you got it wet - so don't mention that crap

you paid good money and it should have lasted a bit longer and all that - try the return or speak to them

I am still learning but even I only mess with cheapo guns coz usually so far i end up making them worse - lol

don't put up with it or pay out to quickly coz it should be lasting better even with a bit of rain

(don't mention rain ffs - it just jammed n all that, seemed to clear itself but then dry fired now n then)

Mate I know where you're coming from but even trading standards have told me that if you" Remove screws to take the item apart" that's warranty void! I had a couple of issues with my TM PX4 (deformed hop adjuster plate) and had to get "Schooled up" on were I stood! Many companies will write the item off if you've removes a slide, taken an inner barrel out etc..

 

[Sitting Duck]

I dunno where you brought it from but if local then it is worth a try

yes it might seem a little dodgy perhaps and if it was £100 gun then ok

I can write if off - the warranty I mean if I rounded screws etc off

but these can be replaced with new screws.....

fact of the matter is if it didn't play up then most people wouldn't be messing with it

second skirmish and it goes pear shape - not a cheap gun - what is that a £300 gun

yeah right ffs....

at very least if you opened it to ahem clean it you may say....

then if that place has ANY customer service they should fix the problem very cheaply

if they don't then enlighten us a little and we will avoid them like ebola/plague

You only find out just how good any retailer is - not just airsoft but anything we buy

is when things go wrong or not according to plan - and yes aeg's are prone to going tits up

coz they get hammered and in effect they are like little hammer drills going 10 to dozen

BUT this was no JBBG pile of pooh either

besides what have you got to lose at least by ringing them first

A decent place would of imho treat a customer - a decent customer who spent £300 on aeg

a little bit better than a JBBG £60 gun - well they better or that customer ain't gonna spend

any more in their shop - it may be a real simple fix but us noobs gotta know our limits

and you not ripped the guts out of it just yet

 

[Ian_Gere]

Where do I get a Delay plate? I'm still new to this so sourcing stuff is like a big void for me

Follow the links i provided - that's what they were for.

There's a lot of mythology around LiPo's... and also some outright bollocks.

The main thing to note is that the Voltage determines the motor speed, but in the first few milliseconds a motor can draw a very high current (Ampage) to start spinning from stationary and batteries have limit to how much current they can supply, but also how quickly they can ramp up from 0 to their maximum output. LiPo batteries can deliver both a higher maximum current than NiMh and also ramp up to their maximum faster. This means that even a half decent 7.4V LiPo will generally produce a better trigger response than even a good 8.4V NiMh and, over a short burst, the average cycle speed (ie the measureable RPM) will tend to be faster also.

But a good 9.6V NiMh, such as a Vapex, will produce a faster complete cycle than a 15 or 20C airsoft 7.4V LiPo, even though the LiPo may make the motor spin faster in the initial few milliseconds. But that will also depend on the resistance of the circuit, so if there is a fuse in the gun and/or the wiring is the standard 20 gauge (and if you didn't have a power handling MOSFET and the trigger switch was pitted through heavy use*), you don't actually get much benefit from the ability of the LiPo to deliver high current quickly.

*I take it the MOSFET is wired in with 3 wires on one side and 2 on the other?

Once you get the poxy thing sorted out, you can also decrease the resistance by soldering the motor connections and replacing the small Tamiya connectors with Deans - this will benefit the trigger response whether you use NiMh or LiPo batteries, just more so for the latter.