Competitive But Not Speedsoft

[Seth_Erebor]

I've been thinking about holding a 5v5 competition and how to make it feel more Rainbow Six/SWAT and not so much Call of Duty/Speedsoft.

This is what I'm thinking...

Clothing: typical combat top/pants (optional knee/elbow pads), Balaclava w/built-in Mesh (No helmets, working on having NODs). Gloves.

Eye Pro: No mesh (Am I correct to enforce that due to the nature of CQB?).

Ear Pro: Anything that actually protects your hearing (due to the use of BFGs).

Webbing: Belt only (there is a reason).

Loadout: Primary w/Sling + anything that fits on to the belt. 

Rules:

Gun hits, Belt Hits, Eye/Ear Pro hits do not count.

Hand/Boot hits are at the player's discretion (pending inclusion into the system below).

Empirical Impact Detection, meaning if you get hit in the face, upper or lower body, we'll know and so will you.

I'll have this by the end of the year, if not before.

Belt only reason: Any plate carrier or chest rig would mess with the system.

Belt loadout recommendations:

• Primary Mags
  
• Sidearm (Optional)
  
• Sidearm Mags
  
• Dump Pouch
  
• BFGs
  
• Chemlights
  

Game-wise, pretty typical, capture this, escort that, defend here, attack there, place bomb, CTF and even just survive for x amount of time.

I can see about 4 teams competing over 12 rounds in a double round-robin tournament, ranked by wins.  

The winning team on the day gets a mini-keg or something. If this makes people start cheating then it will only be available after the hit detection system is in use

 

[Druid799]

First off your exclusions are rather dumb , in the real world if your gun get hit by a bullet it will stop functioning so you’d need to swap to your secondary to continue playing  .

Secondly if you were to be hit on the Belt , Eye/Ear Pro/Hand/Boot again in the real world with a real bullet then YOU’D stop functioning ! ?‍

If your using BB guns that look like real guns then the hits should replicate the consequences of a real hit should they not ?   

 

[Adolf Hamster]

i think the problem that causes competition to move to speedsoft is because the equipment works, for that environment.

it's a bit like 3-gun in america, the equipment they use there is very similar to speedsoft kit because the objectives are the same- high speed, low drag, shoot as many things as you can as fast as you can but you're not actually being shot at so no need for protection, and you can always go pick your mags up off the game floor/range when your done so no need to retain those.

depending on the scenario this doesn't work as well for military kit because military kit also has to bear in mind that actually having that mag protected and available after a 40 mile hike or 300 yards crawling through the dirt under fire is more important than being able to access said mag 0.4ms quicker

i wouldn't go too ham on what players are specifically wearing, unless you need it for your system, but for example if you encourage a mag retention policy/penalty (lets say if you finish a round with a dropped mag on the floor that's it you cannot use it for all future rounds) it'll encourage players to consider using more secure pouches and have a dump pouch, but still leave them the option of speed reloading if the situation requires.

not sure on the arm/belt/ear/eye hits, i can sort of see that causing confusion, if you're using a hit detector then only hit detector registered hits should count, otherwise what's the point of the detector in the first place? i'm with druid on the gun hits, although i've never played anywhere that enforced secondaries (because not everyone has one), it does get kind of ridiculous not taking gun hits when you realise how good an mg42's drum is at protecting your face from bb's, even if the tin would melt under an actual rifle round.

otherwise i suspect a lot of it is going to be layout/game design, where teams can/cant attack from, where defenders are allowed to set up and how long they get to do it, wether or not there are doors to hide approaches etc.

 

[Aengus]

So the only way you’ll prevent it from becoming speedsoft is by making competitors dress up like soldiers? Oh boy ?

 

[Tommikka]

The game formats can be run in a competitive style.

I have an empirical impact detection system in place today, and there is already a UK competitive game format using those mission types and that empirical impact detection system.

Each BB has the empirical detection system embedded and therefore there is not need to place detectors on the players nor limit the system to specific body parts / exclude equipment.

However at 6mm the empirical detection system is too weak to be fired and has to be reinforced, which makes it fail to detect impact on the player.  The optimum calibre is 17mm

I have a name for these, and I call them 'gelatine paintballs'

 

[Seth_Erebor]

First off your exclusions are rather dumb , in the real world if your gun get hit by a bullet it will stop functioning so you’d need to swap to your secondary to continue playing  .

Secondly if you were to be hit on the Belt , Eye/Ear Pro/Hand/Boot again in the real world with a real bullet then YOU’D stop functioning ! ?‍

If your using BB guns that look like real guns then the hits should replicate the consequences of a real hit should they not ?   

Yeah, just down to the impact system. 

As Adolf Hamster said: if you're using a hit detector then only hit detector registered hits should count, otherwise what's the point of the detector in the first place.

Although, he does agree with you so I'm probably quoting out of context.

i think the problem that causes competition to move to speedsoft is because the equipment works, for that environment.

it's a bit like 3-gun in america, the equipment they use there is very similar to speedsoft kit because the objectives are the same- high speed, low drag, shoot as many things as you can as fast as you can but you're not actually being shot at so no need for protection, and you can always go pick your mags up off the game floor/range when your done so no need to retain those.

depending on the scenario this doesn't work as well for military kit because military kit also has to bear in mind that actually having that mag protected and available after a 40 mile hike or 300 yards crawling through the dirt under fire is more important than being able to access said mag 0.4ms quicker

i wouldn't go too ham on what players are specifically wearing, unless you need it for your system, but for example if you encourage a mag retention policy/penalty (lets say if you finish a round with a dropped mag on the floor that's it you cannot use it for all future rounds) it'll encourage players to consider using more secure pouches and have a dump pouch, but still leave them the option of speed reloading if the situation requires.

not sure on the arm/belt/ear/eye hits, i can sort of see that causing confusion, if you're using a hit detector then only hit detector registered hits should count, otherwise what's the point of the detector in the first place? i'm with druid on the gun hits, although i've never played anywhere that enforced secondaries (because not everyone has one), it does get kind of ridiculous not taking gun hits when you realise how good an mg42's drum is at protecting your face from bb's, even if the tin would melt under an actual rifle round.

otherwise i suspect a lot of it is going to be layout/game design, where teams can/cant attack from, where defenders are allowed to set up and how long they get to do it, wether or not there are doors to hide approaches etc.

Yeah, the clothing is for the system. Otherwise, they can do what they want.

I will edit in secondary as optional.

Well, gun hits aren't a kill anyway, only a switch to secondary so it would have to be up to the player's honesty.

So the only way you’ll prevent it from becoming speedsoft is by making competitors dress up like soldiers? Oh boy ?

That's just it, different clothes on the same beast? Or are there fundamental differences?

The game formats can be run in a competitive style.

I have an empirical impact detection system in place today, and there is already a UK competitive game format using those mission types and that empirical impact detection system.

Each BB has the empirical detection system embedded and therefore there is not need to place detectors on the players nor limit the system to specific body parts / exclude equipment.

However at 6mm the empirical detection system is too weak to be fired and has to be reinforced, which makes it fail to detect impact on the player.  The optimum calibre is 17mm

I have a name for these, and I call them 'gelatine paintballs'

No comment. ?

 

[AK47frizzle]

Imo, those rules are just too obscure and too hard to enforce properly. I get what you are trying to do and don't stop trying stuff. But, I don't think will work that well because:

Speedsoft is the literally definition of airsoft played at the highest level. It completely disregards realism and only goes for effective setups.

Having a competition and then dialing it back with realism just doesn't work as it just feels pretentious and slow. It should be just straight hit anywhere to die; airsoft just doesn't naturally adhere to realism. Hit detection in obscure areas is just too hard to enforce in high adrenaline and high speed scenarios, and we don't have hit detection technology that works like in video games. If you get killed in a video game, you just drop dead and have no more input. In airsoft, both players could easily keep shooting each other and no one will know who shot first. Introducing more hit detection rules like that will only make it worse. It also makes it very easy to cheat: " I sH0t u iN Da FaCe", "nO, u Sh0T mE In Da EaRrrr!" etc etc... Also, impact systems will frustrate players as they will just cover up as much as possible and yolo charge.

Keep the rules simple.

Competition means you have to be fast and efficient. Playing video games at the highest level is all about being fast, aggressive, and shoving your dick into your opponent's face as much as possible. 

 

[Seth_Erebor]

Imo, those rules are just too obscure and too hard to enforce properly. I get what you are trying to do and don't stop trying stuff. But, I don't think will work that well because:

Speedsoft is the literally definition of airsoft played at the highest level. It completely disregards realism and only goes for effective setups.

Having a competition and then dialing it back with realism just doesn't work as it just feels pretentious and slow. It should be just straight hit anywhere to die; airsoft just doesn't naturally adhere to realism.

It can be 1-hit kill, it can even be 2-3 hits, or percentages based on body parts.

Hit detection in obscure areas is just too hard to enforce in high adrenaline and high speed scenarios, and we don't have hit detection technology that works like in video games. If you get killed in a video game, you just drop dead and have no more input. In airsoft, both players could easily keep shooting

It's your entire upper body+arms, face and legs.

each other and no one will know who shot first. Introducing more hit detection rules like that will only make it worse. It also makes it very easy to cheat: " I sH0t u iN Da FaCe", "nO, u Sh0T mE In Da EaRrrr!" etc etc... Also, impact systems will frustrate players as they will just cover up as much as possible and yolo charge.

There will be LED indicators on your Wrists, Shoulders, Belt Buckle and Ankles. And it reports back to the control software. Trades will still happen, that is fine.

Keep the rules simple.

Competition means you have to be fast and efficient. Playing video games at the highest level is all about being fast, aggressive, and shoving your dick into your opponent's face as much as possible. 

Whoa...

 

[Adolf Hamster]

shoving your dick into your opponent's face as much as possible. 

ummm, you sure you're playing the same video games the rest of the world is playing  :huh:

edit:

And a vibrator

But you'll feel your wrists, shoulders, belt and legs vibrating for sure.

ok, now i'm out......  :blink: :blink:

 

[Seth_Erebor]

And a vibrator motor in the LED indicators, maybe sound, maybe not.

But you'll feel your wrists, shoulders, belt and legs vibrating for sure.

 

[ImTriggerHappy]

You were doing so well after finding a site then you post this........... oh well ?

 

[AK47frizzle]

ummm, you sure you're playing the same video games the rest of the world is playing  :huh:

You know I don't mean it literally.

What I mean is that it's essentially about telling your opponent that you are better than them by making plays that demean and demoralise your opponent over and over. A large part of competition is the mental games. That's why esports is the hardest type of competition currently because the vast majority don't have the mental fortitude or skill to last.

Also for seth, trades are not ok. Definitely not. If players are constantly trading, they are going to get angry very quickly. 

 

[Seth_Erebor]

You were doing so well after finding a site then you post this........... oh well ?

It could be a Sunday thing, I feel that the nature of the site does not play into speedsoft as there are too many angles.

I always seem to see speedsoft played in a small room, 3 sightlines and waist-high cover. It's all over in seconds (that's what she said!).

I remember playing Ghost Recon, way back, you couldn't sprint around the place. How do I capture that style?

 

[Adolf Hamster]

You know I don't mean it literally.

What I mean is that it's essentially about telling your opponent that you are better than them by making plays that demean and demoralise your opponent over and over. A large part of competition is the mental games. That's why esports is the hardest type of competition currently because the vast majority don't have the mental fortitude or skill to last.

yeah i know what you mean, but couldn't resist taking it out of context

can't say i'm a fan of the competitive gaming culture, some of the stuff they get up to in tournaments shouting every insult they can think of at their opponent might be a valid tactic, but without going too british it's just not cricket.

I remember playing Ghost Recon, way back, you couldn't sprint around the place. How do I capture that style?

make everyone wear something really heavy?

 

[Seth_Erebor]

Also for seth, trades are not ok. Definitely not. If players are constantly trading, they are going to get angry very quickly. 

When BBs are in mid-flight, that's fine, right?

What is intolerable is being shot by a BB from a trigger pull after that player is definitively dead.

I will look into digital trigger blocks/locks, maybe a tiny RF device that sits between the battery and it's connector.

 

[ImTriggerHappy]

It could be a Sunday thing, I feel that the nature of the site does not play into speedsoft as there are too many angles.

I always seem to see speedsoft played in a small room, 3 sightlines and waist-high cover. It's all over in seconds (that's what she said!).

I remember playing Ghost Recon, way back, you couldn't sprint around the place. How do I capture that style?

Speedsoft can be played anywhere. The mall was all angles and corridors and I played that at a dead run every weekend.

What your proposing won't work and any attention it gets will disappear really quick as it is all a gimmick. You are trying to reinvent the wheel and making it octagonal.

You are really lacking the knowledge to understand your audience. Looking at the pics that small site has potential just needs someone who understands cqb and it's players to unlock it.

 

[Seth_Erebor]

Speedsoft can be played anywhere. The mall was all angles and corridors and I played that at a dead run every weekend.

What your proposing won't work and any attention it gets will disappear really quick as it is all a gimmick. You are trying to reinvent the wheel and making it octagonal.

You are really lacking the knowledge to understand your audience. Looking at the pics that small site has potential just needs someone who understands cqb and it's players to unlock it.

It's just small team CQB with objectives. Pretty basic I think.

Everything else is just a bonus.

It probably won't work straight away, but as long as feedback is actually taken on board we'll get there.

 

[Tommikka]

...... I feel that the nature of the site does not play into speedsoft as there are too many angles.

I always seem to see speedsoft played in a small room, 3 sightlines and waist-high cover. It's all over in seconds (that's what she said!).

......

That would actually bring the skills of speedsoft to the fore.  Instead of domination purely due to finger/trigger speed and/or running around like a demented idiot it would bring the need to understand the angles, time moves to the optimum moment etc

Is a speedsoft player just a bling player and is a ‘tactical’ player just someone dressed up in combats?   Some of them are, others are players with abilities and skills

 

[Callum Hornsby]

Hmm okay, so you want tactics and realism in small 5v5 games. The first issue is that it’s 5v5, minimal players results in intense, fast and over in two seconds kinda engagements regardless of playing tactical or not.

As for game modes you cannot have both teams on the offensive, one team needs to be the clear defenders (or objective holders eg. Flag holders or hostage takers) and the other the attackers (this could be swapped so each team gets a turn). This promotes slower gameplay and teamwork allowing attack and defence plans can be conversed over and executed.

Maps would have to follow closely to the ones of the games you mentioned, they need a main building or compound with a small amount of “street” or woodland surrounding to allow the attackers to make a dynamic entry (tactical af I know) having an alleyway approach like in cod soon gets stale and very speedsoft like.

I don’t see the need for the hit detectors or the load out rules, just a good marshalling team and a sort of milsim style of load out rules eg real cap mags and so on.

 

[Musica]

Are you going to ban sliding to deter those speedsoft scum from ruining everyone else's fun? They will slowly walk through my line of fire and get shot then.