site limits

[slick]

Put this question in another thread and it was suggested to start a new thread on this.

My ICS is currently running 360fps on .2g. I thought it had a M100 but it probs has a m110. The gun was classed as hot at the Mall (Site limit 330 max 340) so had to rent.

Got a chrono now to ensure I know what the RIF is running at. I also intend to try out a load of mods ( I'm a tech at heart) Bought a M90 and it runs at 300 which is as expected.

Anyway back to the question, 360fps is on zero hop, adjust the hop correctly and it goes below 350. Is this then acceptable to use on a 350 limit site or is this bending the rules?

I understand you can reduce FPS by correcting AOE and breaking in the spring but is use of hop (when correctly adjusted) acceptable?

Im not trying to cheat the chrono but essentially saying on zero hop it is hot but adjusted correctly it running under the site limit, is this ok??

In any case got a proper m100 on the way but thought I'd ask. - please don't burn me !

 

[PT247]

if an M90 is 300 then an M100 by the same manufacturer SHOULD be 333.33fps.

Some guns with zero hop run faster than with hop applied, others run faster with hop on. Best option although not foolproof is to set your hop for the weight you use then chrono on 0.2gBBs with that set hop.

 

[Sitting Duck]

hop should be set imho but if site uses 0.20 to chron and your hop is lifting 0.30 then there should/will some extra lift

easiest way to clearly see any lift is rotating gun 90 degrees on its side & fire one off - it will veer off to the side quite a bit

but if shooting round corners - yeah ya taking the pi$$ or lifting sniper rounds so to speak....

anyway hop should be on to how you normally shoot but should behave itself when chrono'd with site's 0.20 mags

Was well impressed with the Mall's private game, very comforting to know all guns where under 340fps

any custom mags were fired off and topped up with there own 0.20's - no cheating at chrono so to speak

yes I suppose you can still cheat but EVERYBODY was checked - no exceptions

and yes my FFR was over just so couldn't use it - I had a spare or two so no biggie for me

back to OP - a m100 = 328fps blah blah blah but even then there is still an area of adjustment

an AK may need a m90 for a 455mm barrel and mp5k needs a m110 for a 141mm barrel

(barrel length can add/subtract a bit of fps + a tight bore can add a smidge on too)

next comes bearings/spacers adding extra compression of spring plus AoE nicking 10-15 aprox

add in $hit seals and/or crap seals especially hop/bucking can lose a fair bit of fps

So you can see what some people can get maybe only get 300fps or so in a basic mp5k

and others can perhaps squeeze out 380fps or so in an AK with bearing/spacers adding up to say 10mm extra spring compression

(that is like adding 3 teeth back on)

and perfect seals in box & hop unit on the exact same spring !!!!

usually shs m100 or Element m105 is what I use but think Element lose a bit a little quicker than shs - well I tend to think that

though lately I just check fps, not happy sling in a UAR quick change gun - note what it shoots at

test some springs I got to hand - find one say 20fps lower/higher depending on what I'm after and usually takes out so much guesswork

(poor UAR is just my spring testing slave)

SHS M100 sounds like it will do you proud I think but tbh if you are just over the 340 limit I'd try to see if adding a 2mm neoprene washer will correct AoE a smidge or half correct it - please google it and use super glue or something

that should knock her down 7 to 10 fps if it has no correcting in there already...

Yes SHS M100 "should" get you 328fps but reckon most springs add a smidge more on to be sure

Guarder springs - try not to get these as many have said they can be anywhere from 10 to 30fps over the springs rating

 

[Samurai]

Hop must be set to the setting you are using it on the field. Some guns don't even work with hop totally off and most will put out different energy. AEGs usually have less fps with hop on, guns using VSR bucking will give higher fps with hop on.

FPS/energy limit is about safety on the field, so the setting you use on the field should be measured.

 

[slick]

Thank all for your input!

So chrono test is done when the AEG is all set for use on the field.

My current set up should be OK for most sites is just the Mall and other CQB sites.

Thanks SD for your in-depth reply, I love to tinker, already have a note book of research off here and the net. Going to test out flat hopping and maybe G hop. Amazed how much effect the correct fitment of the bucking makes on performance. I will have a longer tighter too soon, really interested to see first hand what difference it makes.

AOE on my ICS split gearbox looks to be a bit of a ball ache though but will deffo experiment with spacers.

Will fit the M100 this week and see where that gets me.

 

[Sacarathe]

Got a chrono now to ensure I know what the RIF is running at. I also intend to try out a load of mods ( I'm a tech at heart) Bought a M90 and it runs at 300 which is as expected.

Anyway back to the question, 360fps is on zero hop, adjust the hop correctly and it goes below 350. Is this then acceptable to use on a 350 limit site or is this bending the rules?

Don't say RIF, say Gun!

My gun always fails chrono with zero hop. I would love to be able to use 0.20g at the mall, but my range would be under 50% of what's possible with heavier.

Just call any site new to you ahead of time and ask if they insist on turning the hop off for chrono - the mall for example do listen for the impact (or watch the trajectory)to see if you're hop is on a lot. First time I went there, I had an aeg with a range of about 20m now it's had a few thousand shots and heavier ammo it shoots further.

 

[GunmanAirsoft]

We always chrono guns with whatever weight you are using and with your hop correctly set. That's the only way to get a true reading of output power/energy.

To help with this we have made up a chart based on fixed energy limits for each of our 3 classes (sniper, DMR, and everything else).

My old L96 had a PDI hop in it that requires adjusting 2 Allen screws inside the chamber and took ages to set right, no way would I be able to adjust it for a 0.2g for chrono and then set it back for heavier ammo and still have time to play lol

 

[proffrink]

Oh god. I had the same PDI hop chamber on my Type96 and those things are an absolute bastard to adjust.

Good to hear you're croning in Joules. I'm assuming you don't go this far, but do you weigh a couple of BBs from people's ammo or would that just take too long?

 

[Sacarathe]

Oh god. I had the same PDI hop chamber on my Type96 and those things are an absolute bastard to adjust.

Good to hear you're croning in Joules. I'm assuming you don't go this far, but do you weigh a couple of BBs from people's ammo or would that just take too long?

Careful, the insurance companies will start insisting on properly calibrated scales - though I do find it odd that the mall is the only site i've encountered that said their chrono had to be calibrated by professional inspectors on behalf of the insurance company.

 

[GunmanAirsoft]

Our insurance company states the limits in fps with no mention of BB weights at all! In theory a 0.43g BB firing at 350fps in an AEG would satisfy our insurance stipulations...

Hence why I've written energy limits into our standard terms and conditions and use a chart to compare.

We do require a level of player honesty in declaring the correct weight of BB and I prefer trusting players by default. It is truly saddening that some players are so poorly skilled in fieldcraft and marksmanship that they feel they need to run hot guns in an attempt to compensate.

 

[Sacarathe]

We do require a level of player honesty in declaring the correct weight of BB and I prefer trusting players by default. It is truly saddening that some players are so poorly skilled in fieldcraft and marksmanship that they feel they need to run hot guns in an attempt to compensate.

I think, based on everything I know about airsoft, that it would be more accurate to say:

"... so poorly skilled at hop-up fiddling..."

If there was to be any kind of airsoft training, it would be:

General non specific gun safety.

What are Joules?

Why your hopup is important.

etc

 

[GunmanAirsoft]

I think, based on everything I know about airsoft, that it would be more accurate to say:

"... so poorly skilled at hop-up fiddling..."

If there was to be any kind of airsoft training, it would be:

General non specific gun safety.

What are Joules?

Why your hopup is important.

etc

Definitely.

We've started to put a couple of tin targets up at the chrono point to encourage people to plink and set their hops while they wait for chrono. It's amazing how many people have way too much hop set

 

[slick]

Don't say RIF, say Gun!

My gun always fails chrono with zero hop. I would love to be able to use 0.20g at the mall, but my range would be under 50% of what's possible with heavier.

Just call any site new to you ahead of time and ask if they insist on turning the hop off for chrono - the mall for example do listen for the impact (or watch the trajectory)to see if you're hop is on a lot. First time I went there, I had an aeg with a range of about 20m now it's had a few thousand shots and heavier ammo it shoots further.

LOL still talking in code, we call it a R.I.F at work so the powers do not know what we talking about.

 

[GeneralKimbo]

What spring Is most common in AEGs straight out the box?

 

[Sitting Duck]

I would say a new m100 to m110

on a small gun you lose some joule/fps or sod it energy I'll call it

the shorter guns: FireHawk, MP5k's must have a m110-ish in there to hit 330fps aprox

(maybe even a tiny bit more if running near 350fps but usually think they run @ 320/330 new)

on longer barrel guns like AK47 with say a 455mm barrel then they may have a m90 or m95 to hit 330fps

yes you should be hitting in theory 300-ish but the joule creep happens on longer barrels

Also most basic out of box guns have at best so-so seals so you are not getting a perfectly efficient gun either

but have found often that they be a little over volumed to sort of compensate for this

Though to be fair nigh on most guns are slapped together with little attention to detail in assembly & possible thought

In the middle you got guns with an aprox barrel of say 300mm so these are probably running with a m105 aprox spring

This in theory equates to 328 + 5% = 345-ish or there abouts, average seal n $hit = 330fps

This is a rough guide, so many factors can alter this and still a great/poor seal or fitment of bucking/hop with throw figures out a bit/quite a bit

along with "spacing" the spring with bearing spring guides, piston bearings or spacers used plus also weight of piston and if it binds, stroke/porting AoE if done - usually not at all, oooh there are a few others in the mix but it is always hard to get it bang on every time to within 5fps unless you are building same ol' same ol' to high spec using exact same stuff and even then due to bad fit of hop you can still get the odd wtf result ???

So manufactures knocking out loads of guns will not spend all the time in the world getting it bang on but hopefully they get it around 330fps for UK

G&G usually are 330fps but they can be at least 20 more or less than the 330 figure they tend to aim for - $hit happens I guess

Hot or slightly hot guns can be brought down if AoE or leave gun pre-cocked say 24/48hrs

I just fully compressed a spring for 24hrs inside a stripped piston with bolt and saw it drop the high 385-ish to around 370-375fps

so say about the same as correcting AoE though I must stress this was fully compressed - a bit more than normal aeg use

but wanted to see and speed up the breaking in as most springs lose 10% compression energy in say 6 months

(bolt snipers often have to replace springs due to them losing their energy rating over say 3 months even)

Phew - think this answers your question and explains why it isn't quite as simple for every gun to hit 330fps for use at all sites

Imported guns are often shooting up to 390fps but sometimes you can request spring downgrade for very little or even free at some places