UKARA Alternative

[Baz JJ]

Ive watched this thread with interest.

Arguing publicly doesn't help your cause and a few airsofters have already said to me offline that they have lost confidence in this Project because they are seeing the bickering at this early stage.

My advice to you is to have a leader (503) and let him go away and do what has been suggested. Design a framework, define the features and benefits on the website and promote the concept on a website. As I said in post 3, you cant do this by open committee.

Encouraging ideas is fine but its a bit like channeling. Be prepared for the voices with no order or consistency.

I have extensive experience in the development of highly sophisticated products with R&D budgets running into millions.

While engineers are an important part of any development, I would caution you to keep a marketing control. Its very easy to get overexcited about what is cool, fun, chic and clever and lose total sight of what the customers needs and objections are.

Good luck.

ETA - oh and don't overestimate the size of the market. I don't think those prepared to pay are as many as you think. Do the numbers on your development costs. In my experience, they are always hugely under judged and the delivery dates for rollout over optimistic. Don't quote £5 per head if it ends up being £10 as this will lose you marketshare and credibility.

 

[fivezerothree]

Ive watched this thread with interest.

Arguing publicly doesn't help your cause and a few airsofters have already said to me offline that they have lost confidence in this Project because they are seeing the bickering at this early stage.

My advice to you is to have a leader (503) and let him go away and do what has been suggested. Design a framework, define the features and benefits on the website and promote the concept on a website. As I said in post 3, you cant do this by open committee.

Encouraging ideas is fine but its a bit like channeling. Be prepared for the voices with no order or consistency.

I have extensive experience in the development of highly sophisticated products with R&D budgets running into millions.

While engineers are an important part of any development, I would caution you to keep a marketing control. Its very easy to get overexcited about what is cool, fun, chic and clever and lose total sight of what the customers needs and objections are.

Good luck.

I agree. I regret the way this thread has gone myself. However if you look beyond the bickering, actual good has come of it.

I'm hoping some of the big posters here will actually speak to me in person and help too.

I have asked, and I mean to see it through.

 

[Airsoft-Ed]

I think what he's trying to say is, hold tight and take everything he says with a pinch of salt because he is single handedly spearheading most of this operation with such ferocity that the rest of the team are struggling to keep up.

Breathing room is required.

 

[Airsoft-Ed]

Wow... A lot of stuff was added in the space of time it took me to post that.

Let's resume once the website is running.

 

[Ian_Gere]

I've been using my phone b/c my lappy was in process of restoring itself to an earlier version - the main problem hgas gone but a new one has emerged so I'm bowing out for a while. No I'm not much use speaking on the phone - i get easily sidetracked b/c my meds give me a serious issue with memory. I will summarise my main points into a concise paragraph however and msg it to you on here, or post it wherever you feel best (apart from up my arse).

 

[Ian_Gere]

Well Norton is having another bash, so back to my phone: I think i can best explain where i'm coming from by analogy, so here goes...

You want to get into airsoft? Great! I'll set up a WW2 skirmishing site. It'll have the classic D-Day beach assault and Normandy hedgerows, but it'll also have Arnhem and the Battle of The Bulge, if we get enough support we can have the Fall of Berlin too...

What do you mean you don't want WW2!?! Trust me, it'll be brilliant. Look I've spoken to loads of people and skirmishing is skirmishing, so that's a reasonable position. Don't stress me about uniforms and guns at this stage, i'm too busy trying to set it up before someone else does it.

Look this is just the beginning; once it's set up we can look into changing it, weigh up the costs and hassle of changing from what we've already spent money on and got working the way other WW2 sites do, to something we'll need to spend more money on. If people vote to change, yeah no problem, besides the cash, there'll be no inertia to overcome. We'll just calmly say, yeah a good half of the money and effort we've just expended was pointless, right, what's next?

 

[Ian_Gere]

Just a quick word for the sake of posterity/lurkers/transparency: 503 and i have had a discussion on facebook and discovered that, as is so often the case, our positions are very much closer than they may appear here and a constructive way of going forward has been reached. So i'm back on board, thus my millions of fans should also now renew allegiance to Luther :lol:

 

[Mike636]

Just a quick word for the sake of posterity/lurkers/transparency: 503 and i have had a discussion on facebook and discovered that, as is so often the case, our positions are very much closer than they may appear here and a constructive way of going forward has been reached. So i'm back on board, thus my millions of fans should also now renew allegiance to Luther :lol:

Do you mean philosophy wise or literally he is close to you, with a knife? Act cool, and blink once for yes, twice for potatoes

 

[Mike1971]

Ok guys, time to take a step back!

I'm reasonably new to Air soft and as such I dam we'll confused over this defence lark.

So to any really new person to Air soft this is going to melt there brain as it is mine.

So let me get this straight not only do we have UKARA, we now have BAC and the up and coming project Luther, and any other I may have missed.

Also I have spoken to a neighbour whom is police armed response office and I was speaking to him told him I had air soft RIF's.

His reply was good for you, can I have a look?

He had a look, then had a go with them in my back garden.

I told him that I wasn't in the UKARA.

Reply, what's that then!

Explained to him about these organisations

His reply was oh I see, it basically comes down to a few things.

1. Carry them in a suitable case when transporting them.

2. Don't wave them around in public or our next chat won't be so friendly and what I'm aiming at you will hurt a lot more than a 6mm bb.

I said to him Should I be worried that I have none of the so called defences, although I only use my RIF's when training with Army cadets.

He then told me that is my defence.

 

[Longshot]

^ this goes to show what I often point out, most people (including airsofters and the police) have no idea about what the laws surrounding airsoft actually say.

For the record Mike, you don't need a defence to own or buy a RIF if you're over 18, only to sell, manufacture or import them, so don't worry! You certainly don't NEED to be registered with any organisation like the UKARA. Though your police friend is right to point out that common sense - carrying them properly and not waving them around - is the best way to ensure that you never get into any bother.

EDIT: Purely out of nosiness, since you don't seem to be with any organisation, where did you buy your RIFs from?

 

[SgtTalbert]

^ this goes to show what I often point out, most people (including airsofters and the police) have no idea about what the laws surrounding airsoft actually say.

For the record Mike, you don't need a defence to own or buy a RIF if you're over 18, only to sell, manufacture or import them, so don't worry! You certainly don't NEED to be registered with any organisation like the UKARA. Though your police friend is right to point out that common sense - carrying them properly and not waving them around - is the best way to ensure that you never get into any bother.

EDIT: Purely out of nosiness, since you don't seem to be with any organisation, where did you buy your RIFs from?

I understand your nosiness, however, according to his profile, the 'rifs' are two tone so therefore he just needs to be 18, which again based on his profile he is over that age

 

[Mack]

Ok guys, time to take a step back!

I'm reasonably new to Air soft and as such I dam we'll confused over this defence lark.

So to any really new person to Air soft this is going to melt there brain as it is mine.

So let me get this straight not only do we have UKARA, we now have BAC and the up and coming project Luther, and any other I may have missed.

Also I have spoken to a neighbour whom is police armed response office and I was speaking to him told him I had air soft RIF's.

His reply was good for you, can I have a look?

He had a look, then had a go with them in my back garden.

I told him that I wasn't in the UKARA.

Reply, what's that then!

Explained to him about these organisations

His reply was oh I see, it basically comes down to a few things.

1. Carry them in a suitable case when transporting them.

2. Don't wave them around in public or our next chat won't be so friendly and what I'm aiming at you will hurt a lot more than a 6mm bb.

I said to him Should I be worried that I have none of the so called defences, although I only use my RIF's when training with Army cadets.

He then told me that is my defence.

I understand your nosiness, however, according to his profile, the 'rifs' are two tone so therefore he just needs to be 18, which again based on his profile he is over that age

To be fair to Longshot he did say RIF'S twice

Two tones are considered IF's

 

[SgtTalbert]

Yeah true, in my mind though chucking paint on a rifle doesn't not make it a replica, it just means its a replica with paint on it

Either way, potential 'witch hunt' averted

 

[Russe11]

I think QR codes are not error free enough to go with yet - if it goes wrong it will be admin intensive to sort out. A barcode is bombproof these days.

I am a Cinema manager and we do print at home tickets which have both a barcode and a QR code printed on them. We then use scanners to check the ticket and I can tell you that it is a lot easier to scan the QR code, it's much more reliable than a barcode, especially if printed on someones own printer.

Regarding the controversial issue of the 2 months, 3 games issue, why does the new system even have to deal with it? If a retailer wants to only sell to people who have played 3 games in 2 months then they can query the database and see if their customer has done this. If the retailer wants to just look at what games a player has attended and use their common sense, why can't they do that? If this is a system to replace UKARA then lets replace UKARA rather than just take control of UKARA from the retailers. Market forces and discussion with the relevant authorities will then be able to move the goal posts in our favour. Leave it up to the retailer to decide who they sell to but keep a database they can check. Also forget raffles and stuff, use any extra money to advertise the sport and lobby the government.

Oh and where does UKAPU stand on all this?

 

[Ian_Gere]

^^I sit corrected. One time I had a QR Code nightclub event ticket that was intended to be shown on our phones and scanned by FoH - mine wasn't the only one that didn't work, but more worked than didn't. Could they sort it out? Could they fuck! If it wasn't for the fact that one of my mates was shagging the promotion team (that isn't a grammatical error), I'd have had to lurk outside for an hour or two, or give up and go somewhere else.

 

[Russe11]

Neither QR or Barcodes is 100% but QR codes work better with inkjet printers for example as the width of the bars varies from printer to printer but QR codes work on the placement of black and white squares so are less problematic. Having it on your phone would be even worse as a lot depends on the quality of the screen.

 

[Mike1971]

EDIT: Purely out of nosiness, since you don't seem to be with any organisation, where did you buy your RIFs from?

My M4 from Zero one was in two tone when I got it, and my sig P229 was gained privately.

I work with other cadet instructors whom like me are fire arms trained, have there own Rif's and have never been to an air soft site either.

I have been speaking to my CO this morning and asking him about all these defence organisations etc.

He told me to show him my MOD 90, so I did.

There you go there's your defence, he added wether you are in uniform or not and carrying your weapons systems in an appropriate case and you get stopped, your ID should be enough to send him on his way.

Also if I was carrying them chances are I will be heading to MOD property.

I'm a lot happier now.

 

[Airsoft-Ed]

Just to clear something up from a while ago.

The buyer is the one who needs the defence, but their need for it, is for the sake of the retailer/seller.
I, as a buyer, must be able to prove to the seller that I am a skirmisher. Proving that I am one, is my defence against prosecution under the VCRA.
However, if they sell to me without being confident that proof is there, it's the seller who's breaking the law.

You don't need a defence to sell, so saying that a defence is for sellers is just confusing semantics.

Similarly, from a business point of view, we can't really advertise the fact that our system is going to allow people to sell and buy RIFs based on the sellers satisfaction.
What you're all suggesting is that we just allow people to see the list of people's attendance, so people can make their own minds up whether the person is "safe" to sell to.
I agree, I think that's a good idea and I think we'll probably facilitate it.

However, using it in that way will remain an unwritten thing and we won't be trying to sell the system by it.

To me, personally, it sounds like we're saying we acknowledge and are doing nothing to try to stop how it might allow people to buy RIFs with no viable defence, because some people feel that 0 games but Luther membership is a suitable defence.

So we will say that 3 in no less than 2 IS what the requirements are to sell what we would consider legitimately.
But, as is the case now, people will ignore that and sell to people regardless, and we will provide the data to check people's attendance if they so wish and the person provides their ID number.

Does that make sense?

Maybe once the system is up and running, if it looks to be over taking UKARA or the other alternatives substantially enough then we could look into what the minimum accepted requirements would be from the Home Office.

It's still very early days and these are just my thoughts, haven't run it by the team.

 

[typefish]

Just to clear something up from a while ago.

The buyer is the one who needs the defence, but their need for it, is for the sake of the retailer/seller.

I, as a buyer, must be able to prove to the seller that I am a skirmisher. Proving that I am one, is my defence against prosecution under the VCRA.

However, if they sell to me without being confident that proof is there, it's the seller who's breaking the law.

You don't need a defence to sell, so saying that a defence is for sellers is just confusing semantics.

Similarly, from a business point of view, we can't really advertise the fact that our system is going to allow people to sell and buy RIFs based on the sellers satisfaction.

What you're all suggesting is that we just allow people to see the list of people's attendance, so people can make their own minds up whether the person is "safe" to sell to.

I agree, I think that's a good idea and I think we'll probably facilitate it.

However, using it in that way will remain an unwritten thing and we won't be trying to sell the system by it.

To me, personally, it sounds like we're saying we acknowledge and are doing nothing to try to stop how it might allow people to buy RIFs with no viable defence, because some people feel that 0 games but Luther membership is a suitable defence.

So we will say that 3 in no less than 2 IS what the requirements are to sell what we would consider legitimately.

But, as is the case now, people will ignore that and sell to people regardless, and we will provide the data to check people's attendance if they so wish and the person provides their ID number.

Does that make sense?

Maybe once the system is up and running, if it looks to be over taking UKARA or the other alternatives substantially enough then we could look into what the minimum accepted requirements would be from the Home Office.

It's still very early days and these are just my thoughts, haven't run it by the team.

I agree with this. Hence my idea for giving a ranking of the potential purchaser, heavily (50%) based on the 3 in 2 recommendation.

Match at least a 3 in 2 you will get 100%.

Be consistent with your airsoft (once a month?) and you'll also easily get 100%.

Now to get this working... !

 

[Longshot]

Ed, you seem to know a lot about airsoft, but with all due respect I don't think you're fully grasping how the law is written (as badly written as it is). Rather than going on one of my customary rants I'm just going to post a quote, which I believe is wrong, followed by a question.

I, as a buyer, must be able to prove to the seller that I am a skirmisher. Proving that I am one is my defence against prosecution under the VCRA.

If it is the case that a buyer needs a 'defence against prosecution' can you please tell me what crime it is that they could be prosecuted for?