Retailers - Lack of understanding, over-cautious or maybe even cynical?

[Supa_T]

I've been trying to purchase a new RIF for a little while now, and have been frustrated at the stance every retailer I have contacted has taken when I have made enquiries with them.

I'm not on the UKARA database but can still prove that I'm an airsofter and therefore can provide them with a defence. However, retailers aren't interested and insist that if I'm not on the UKARA database, i MUST have the weapon 2-toned. This has been my experience with both UK, US and HK retailers.

Do you think that's because they don't understand that there are other methods of proof?

Do you think they're being cautious?

Do you think they're being cynical? Insisting that I MUST have the weapon 2-toned to be legal and, oh look, they will 2-tone it for me for a modest fee.

One US retailer for example proudly advertises "take advantage of our free 2-toning service". Ok I thought, I'll buy from them and then just clean the paint off when it arrives (remember, I am an airsofter and therefore have a defence to "manufacturing"), however when you look closer they actually want to charge you $50. I even pointed out that 2-toning wasn't a legal requirement and that surely, as the customer, it was my risk to take regarding the gun being impounded but no, they weren't interested and it's cost them my business.

Just wondering what other people thought.

And please don't ask why I don't just get registered with UKARA, that's not what I'm asking.

 

[Mike636]

I totally agree with you, but have you tried visiting an physical store with your evidence of your defence?

 

[Spawnah]

My guess is they're just trying to cover their ass.

 

[jcheeseright]

agreed, checking the UKARA database is a foolproof and more or less infallible way of checking your status as a regular skirmisher, anything else is more effort for them and possible risk of prosecution.

If I'm selling a gun second hand unless I know the buyer personally I too only accept a site membership number as a defence, why take the chance?

 

[Zak Da Mack]

Most stores will only accept UKARA unless it's over the counter. Even then, they'll want some proof that you are a regular skirmisher, such as a diary or a membership card

 

[Mike636]

I just found this site, http://roeairsoft.com/en/ says that they accept other forms of defense

 

[Black Death]

If the retailer knows you personally that may help

As they have knowledge of your 'airlifting activities'. If they know you visit several sites and regularly they can ring those sites to find out. Are there hundreds of pics of Facebook with you at skirmishes (all dated of course), etc etc. I have heard of people obtaining stuff without a UKARA based on the retailers discretion but I can see how this is possible. Take for example if a guy has visited a site for 2 years but has never applied to that site for UKARA then if that site's shop can defend they're sale to him based on the fact they 'know' he does indeed airsoft. They do have an actual Defence based on fact ?

Can't see why some people just can't get past this 'mentally'

 

[proffrink]

Look, UKARA was a response to VCARA; it was suppliers trying to cover their businesses and stop non-legitimate buyers from getting RIFs easily. I think it should be easier to register for, but it's an inherently good idea to show that the industry is actively keeping tabs who can and cannot buy RIFs rather than let it slide and ruin the fun for everyone 10 years down the line when new legislation is inevitably proposed to curb "dangerous imitation weapon sales".

I feel your misery. but just persevere and borrow weapons until you get get that registration done. Most of the rest of us have had to do the same - sorry

 

[sp00n]

I've been trying to purchase a new RIF for a little while now, and have been frustrated at the stance every retailer I have contacted has taken when I have made enquiries with them.

I'm not on the UKARA database but can still prove that I'm an airsofter and therefore can provide them with a defence. However, retailers aren't interested and insist that if I'm not on the UKARA database, i MUST have the weapon 2-toned. This has been my experience with both UK, US and HK retailers.

Do you think that's because they don't understand that there are other methods of proof?

Do you think they're being cautious?

Do you think they're being cynical? Insisting that I MUST have the weapon 2-toned to be legal and, oh look, they will 2-tone it for me for a modest fee.

One US retailer for example proudly advertises "take advantage of our free 2-toning service". Ok I thought, I'll buy from them and then just clean the paint off when it arrives (remember, I am an airsofter and therefore have a defence to "manufacturing"), however when you look closer they actually want to charge you $50. I even pointed out that 2-toning wasn't a legal requirement and that surely, as the customer, it was my risk to take regarding the gun being impounded but no, they weren't interested and it's cost them my business.

Just wondering what other people thought.

And please don't ask why I don't just get registered with UKARA, that's not what I'm asking.

So UKARA isn't perfect, but it is a system that works, and its easy for retailers/sellers to use etc.

Also is it not the right of a retailer to deny to sell you an item/service if they choose. Remember its the seller who is taking the risk selling a rif, so is it not there right to choose ??? Call it over cautious if you will but its there business they are risking, if caught out selling to none skirmishers etc.

If you are a skirmisher, download and fill in the form and get on the ukara database

 

[Supa_T]

If you are a skirmisher, download and fill in the form and get on the ukara database

My bloody-minded response to that is: why the hell should I?

From your perspective that'd be like me telling you that before you can own a car, you have to register on the "Supa_T car owners database". Neither has any legal grounding.

By the way, is there any actual case law regarding what constitutes an airsofter yet? Has a prosecution even been attempted against someone for selling an RIF in airsoft circles?

I feel your misery. but just persevere and borrow weapons until you get get that registration done. Most of the rest of us have had to do the same - sorry

I don't need to borrow weapons: I already own a non-2-toned VFC Scar-L, G&G M14, ICS Mp5A5, TM M3 Shotty and Tac Master, WE Glock 18C, Haw-Shan double-barrel sawn-off and a few more. Most of that was pre VCRA, the Scar and Glock being the only things purchased post-VCRA, both sold to me by airsoft sites I play at because they know I play there and therefore can provide them with a defence.

One of them will order in anything I want as well, but as a consumer I would quite like to be able to purchase direct every now and then and it just annoys me when I hit the "you must pay us more so we can sell you this item which you can quite legally purchase now anyway and don't actually want in a bright neon colour" wall.

I understand that a retailer must protect their business, but they also need to make money and I'm attempting to give them some of mine, I just don't want to pay the unnecessary extras. If it were me, in these "times of economic woe" I would ensure I knew exactly who I could sell to and for the sake of an e-mail costing me a £150+ sale, I might think twice before seemingly dismissing it out of hand.

I totally agree with you, but have you tried visiting an physical store with your evidence of your defence?

I'll admit I haven't, but prefer to purchase most items online due to more competitive prices and wider choice.

I know UKARA did a lot of good both for the hobby we all love and the livelihoods of those involved in retailing, but it's frustrating when it's repeatedly thrown at you as some kind of law, from retailers all over the world, who I think should know better (The main UK retailers really, I have a little more understanding for US and HK based retailers not being all over UK law).

 

[sp00n]

My bloody-minded response to that is: why the hell should I?

From your perspective that'd be like me telling you that before you can own a car, you have to register on the "Supa_T car owners database". Neither has any legal grounding.

By the way, is there any actual case law regarding what constitutes an airsofter yet? Has a prosecution even been attempted against someone for selling an RIF in airsoft circles?

I don't need to borrow weapons: I already own a non-2-toned VFC Scar-L, G&G M14, ICS Mp5A5, TM M3 Shotty and Tac Master, WE Glock 18C, Haw-Shan double-barrel sawn-off and a few more. Most of that was pre VCRA, the Scar and Glock being the only things purchased post-VCRA, both sold to me by airsoft sites I play at because they know I play there and therefore can provide them with a defence.

One of them will order in anything I want as well, but as a consumer I would quite like to be able to purchase direct every now and then and it just annoys me when I hit the "you must pay us more so we can sell you this item which you can quite legally purchase now anyway and don't actually want in a bright neon colour" wall.

I understand that a retailer must protect their business, but they also need to make money and I'm attempting to give them some of mine, I just don't want to pay the unnecessary extras. If it were me, in these "times of economic woe" I would ensure I knew exactly who I could sell to and for the sake of an e-mail costing me a £150+ sale, I might think twice before seemingly dismissing it out of hand.

I'll admit I haven't, but prefer to purchase most items online due to more competitive prices and wider choice.

I know UKARA did a lot of good both for the hobby we all love and the livelihoods of those involved in retailing, but it's frustrating when it's repeatedly thrown at you as some kind of law, from retailers all over the world, who I think should know better (The main UK retailers really, I have a little more understanding for US and HK based retailers not being all over UK law).

let me just clarify the points from my perspective :-

why the hell should I? = to make your and a distance/internet sellers life easier. remember ukara was setup by retailers, to help you to buy off them and it costs nothing

"Supa_T car owners database"? = if it made my life easier, if my details were kept secure and not distributed to 3rd parties, and as long as the cost was the same as ukara i.e nothing to me, why wouldn't i?

just out of interest, as you seem dead against it, why don't you want to be on the ukara data base?

 

[proffrink]

I understand that a retailer must protect their business, but they also need to make money and I'm attempting to give them some of mine, I just don't want to pay the unnecessary extras. If it were me, in these "times of economic woe" I would ensure I knew exactly who I could sell to and for the sake of an e-mail costing me a £150+ sale, I might think twice before seemingly dismissing it out of hand.

I'm not sure where the question is here now as you seem to have a very good idea of why UKARA exists in the first place. Of course they want your business, but do they want to risk their business while doing it? Nope.

You're just going to have to suck it up and understand that there are people out there who have attempted to buy RIFs not for use within airsoft or for recreations/productions; we pay the price for a small minority's bloody-mindedness, but that's how the world works. It's doubly-hard for online retailers to make sure you're a legitimate player.

 

[Baz JJ]

In response to the OP, I would hazard a guess that considering they don't know you, they are being cautious.

I occasionally see members on here investigating how to get a black gun when underage or not regular Airsofters, so Im sure they may see similar things with prospective customer approaches.

I suspect its just not worth the hassle or the risk for them.

 

[Supa_T]

Sp00n - so even though you wouldn't need to do it, you would anyway just because I was telling you that you must? Interesting.

I probably have veered a little off my original question into a crusade against UKARA, which I hadn't intended to and I'm certainly not "dead against it". I think UKARA is a good tool but it should be used as one tool available and not the only tool available to verify legitimate skirmishers.

I suppose in my extreme cynicism it occurred to me that retailers wouldn't entertain selling to me if I wasn't on their database purely to try to screw some more money out of me for 2-toning the gun I wanted to buy.

I suspect its just not worth the hassle or the risk for them.

Partly referred to in one of my earlier posts: I'm not aware of any "main" retailer within airsoft circles having a prosecution brought against them for selling a RIF, so as yet we don't know what burden of proof is placed upon the seller to verify they investigated the buyer's defence. I would argue that a retailer could verify my defence for all the "hassle" of 1 email or telephone call, and the fact they won't means they don't get my sale and costs them business. Prudent business practice?

 

[Esoterick]

Question is as a shop owner would you rather use a reasonably solid defence for selling airsoft guns or would you take the risk of effectively taking someones word for it that they are a skirmisher?

Obviously it is a bit different if your shop is in some way linked with site(s) - Although my local shop is and requires everyone to have a UKARA number. I can't blame them for erring on the side of caution.

 

[sp00n]

Sp00n - so even though you wouldn't need to do it, you would anyway just because I was telling you that you must? Interesting.

I probably have veered a little off my original question into a crusade against UKARA, which I hadn't intended to and I'm certainly not "dead against it". I think UKARA is a good tool but it should be used as one tool available and not the only tool available to verify legitimate skirmishers.

I suppose in my extreme cynicism it occurred to me that retailers wouldn't entertain selling to me if I wasn't on their database purely to try to screw some more money out of me for 2-toning the gun I wanted to buy.

Partly referred to in one of my earlier posts: I'm not aware of any "main" retailer within airsoft circles having a prosecution brought against them for selling a RIF, so as yet we don't know what burden of proof is placed upon the seller to verify they investigated the buyer's defence. I would argue that a retailer could verify my defence for all the "hassle" of 1 email or telephone call, and the fact they won't means they don't get my sale and costs them business. Prudent business practice?

so rather then "meet" the seller half way (getting a defense thats easy for them to check up on), you expect them to go chasing (phoning/emailing etc) round for you?

Edit :- this is not meant to come across as aggressive in the slightest, but it reads that way

 

[Supa_T]

That's one way of looking at it (and no it didn't come across as aggressive - it's pretty apparent that this is an adult thread where people can voice different viewpoints ).

Alternatively, say the total cost to the retailer to purchase an import a RIF for stock is £125 and they mark it up to £150 for a sale. For the sake of 1 email to a site, saying "Mr Supa_T of this address claims to have played at your site on these 5 dates, can you please confirm? Kind regards..." which would take approximately, what 5 minutes including booting up the pc in the 1st place? Is that an unreasonable amount of time and effort to secure that sale?

I think most people have answered my question in that the wider opinion is that it's retailers being cautious rather than cynically trying to screw extra money out of people for supplying 2-toning services

 

[sp00n]

Easy solved, try zero one, they do free two tone'ing

But yeah it is another extra cost with a lot of retailers at least it's not something worse like they restrict the power too

 

[Tariq]

It's just something you have to bear with and get on with it. No its not the only way, but its the damn easiest way.

The retailers have the right to refuse sale. UKARA was set up to protect the retailer, they will use this nearly every time.

I had to pay £30 so i could tax my motorbike for free forever. I didn't have to, but it meant not having to fill in numerous forms etc.

 

[Rock-climby-Dave]

It's nothing personal, just easier. It verifies everything the retailer needs to prove your defence.

If you already have that defence, but no UKARA, I've saved you the effort of going to UKARAs website and finding the form online

It's easier for the retailer, it's easier for you and it's easy for your site. I still don't get the problem with it? Surely it's better than SWAT airsoft putting your details online for literally ANYONE to view.