MK12 upgrading help.

[MrPerforations]

Hello's Forum,

                       i have a double bell MK12 SPR mod1 as it was cheap and all metal. i am new to the hobby and have decided to work on it as a fun project as i want to keep the collect down to one gun.

its to be used as a longer barrel assault rifle as i get aroused by m16's. 

so far i managed to get 13:1 gears and a 39k brushless motor as mechanical upgrades, but i have been lead to believe that this combination would be to fast, would that be correct please?

yesterday i discovered that they also do a newer set of gears with the sector gear delayer in a different place. as i have a longer barrel 470mm in my gun, do you think getting a new set of gears is a good idea please? 

the next question is what gear ratio should i go for with the 39k brushless motor please? 

i can exchange for a slower 33k speed, should i keep the motor and change gears to suit it or change the motor to suit gears please? 

i have also brought new bearing as the one it look mashed up and a Prometheus 50-60 bucking and nub. 

 also , if i become a member of a airsoft sites UKARA, can i then paint my gun in funky camo please?

i have already brought paint, stencils and masking film for this project.

best regards,

                       MrPerforations.

View attachment 145258

 

[Rogerborg]

Ahoy and welcome.

i want to keep the collect down to one gun.

Wow, you are new. You'll quickly find excuses to add to that collection.  

its to be used as a longer barrel assault rifle as i get aroused by m16's. 

I also run a solid-stock long-barrel 5.56 as DMR, but  just to be clear, do you intend to run your gun as a full-auto gun, or as a semi-auto DMR?

so far i managed to get 13:1 gears and a 39k brushless motor as mechanical upgrades, but i have been lead to believe that this combination would be to fast, would that be correct please?

The answer is: it depends. It depends on what battery you're using, and how well the mags feed, and whether your gears have a tappet delayer, and... well, if it works, it works.

However, given the barrel length, you may find issues with sending BBs down the barrel quicker than they come out, but there's no way to be sure other than to try it and see what performance you get.

do you think getting a new set of gears is a good idea please? 

No, I think you should play with it as-is and then deal with the reality that you observe.

i have also brought new bearing as the one it look mashed up

Bearings or solid bushings?  I prefer bushings as bearings just add more points of failure. But again, I wouldn't fix something that isn't broken - if your bearings are working, then play with them.

and a Prometheus 50-60 bucking and nub. 

Decent choice, although Maple Leaf bushings and omega nubs are very popular for a good reason.

if i become a member of a airsoft sites UKARA, can i then paint my gun in funky camo please?

If you're intending to play at airsoft sites, that's your defence.  The reality is that if you use it sensibly, nobody is ever going to ask, or care, how it came to look the way that it looks.

Have you played with it?  If so, how well is it performing?

 

[MrPerforations]

first off, thank you for the reply.

i did building fishing rods as a hobby that i lost interest in, i now have 60 unbuilt fishing rod i don't want, so one gun is where i'm going to stay.

i got the rifle to use in the woods, but the site is hard to get to as i dont have a car. the site i found easy to get to is a good CQB site, only been twice last year before it got cold and dark and i like sun.

the Double Bell mk12 i have is a slug at firing with a 7.4v and my stock spring chrono's at around 315fps and supposed to give around 10-11 rps from the Pheas review.

i did get a couple of 11.1v's that supposed to up it to 17 rps but haven't used them yet.

yes, want it to remain a full auto capable assault rifle but will be trying to use the semi more and improve aim. 

the CQB site allows full auto bursts with the spring i have but i will be trying some woods games as i dont think living at one site will keep the interest going.

i wanted to give it some trigger response, i cant see having crazy rate of fire as being realistic or good use of ammo.

when i started buying stuff, i didn't know or even think of having a set up that could be to fast.

i have brought this stuff now and i work real hard to get a good deal.

SHS 13:1 gears £15

NBF 39k brushless motor £55

chronograph with wifi £15

sealed bearings £3 (the ones in the gun are random shapes but work)

3x SHS delayer chips £5

m100 springs £3 each, intend to cut a few up and experiment with fps's.

the only thing i have paid full price for is the alloy piston body £18, as the one in the guns tooth rack is concaved already and it near new.

what i am thinking of doing is changing the motor to 33k as its going to be easier to work with.

changing the gears to a set with the later delayer positioning as i am lead to believe that would provide more air for the long inner barrel from better timing.

do you think it would be better with 18:1, 16:1 or 13:1 gears please?

later i intend to upgrade to a ETU unit, open to suggestions please? 

i am thinking the Kestrel V2 one with the bluetooth. the three round burst should save ammo and pre-cocking sounds like a good idea.

i did find a hop up with tracer unit built in, but would i be correct in thinking i cannot wire that up in a M4 rear wired v2  please?

oh, i got a couple of high cap Nuprol "maraca" flash mags.

best regards

                     MrPerforations

 

[MrPerforations]

hello's again,

                     after a day of trying to force myself to spend money on stuff, i finally did.

im going to keep the original,

                                                 470mm 6.02 inner brass barrel.

                                                 bell high performance piston head.

                                                 cylinder and cylinder head.

                                                 gearbox casing.

the piston head is the same as a Maxx high performance and i assume the rest are the same.

i have brought,

                                     13:1 BJX gears, shs delayer chips, sealed bearing, shims and some teflon grease.

                                     39k Brushless motor.

                                     Maxx Alloy hop-up with built in tracer , Prometheus bucking and nub.

                                     Kestrel v2 with wifi.

                                     shs tappit plate.

                                     alloy piston body.  

                                     lots of springs m90-120.

                                     o-ring silicone grease.

                            and a cleaning and unjamming rod kit.

all the stuff and the base gun have come to about £400.

i know i could have got a new gun but will all these parts, i can upgrade any V2 i decide to get later.

the new gears hopefully have the different timing chip placement.

the hop up was really hard to purchase as it was full price ?

the tappit plate in the gun looks worn already. 

can the kestrel work with the ported lightened gear set please?

anyone know how easy it would be to wire the tracer up please?

will it plug on to or be soldered to the Kestrel? or do i have to do some crazy wiring please?

i will be thinking about an inner barrel at some point, but is it worth it please?

 

[Rogerborg]

I think you should play with it as-is and then deal with the reality that you observe.

Sorry, I'm out.  I hope all that stuff works well together.

 

[MrPerforations]

i doubt it will,

but i need something to do as i am not very well.

but thank you for your time. 

 

[Cannonfodder]

Welcome

Have you played a game yet? If not then I suggest doing that as it'll give you an idea about what, if anything, needs doing. Also one of the best and often overlooked upgrades is to use good quality heavy weight ammo and properly setting your hop up.

the CQB site allows full auto bursts

What site is this? Asking so I know to avoid it

 

[MrPerforations]

yes i have played a few games and have only one scar so far, rear of left arm. its winter and im a summertime animal.

its m90/300fps with 0.2bb and 2 second max bursts. its an outdoor site, a lot of objects and the owner and staff are nice. 

 

[Skara]

39k brushless motor + 13:1 gears, in that long of a barrel...

Have fun destroying all your internals

 

[MrPerforations]

can you explain please?

and i have asked for gear advice, not much help going on....

i have 90 days free return on stuff and months till i go again, what do you advise please?

 

[Lozart]

can you explain please?

and i have asked for gear advice, not much help going on....

i have 90 days free return on stuff and months till i go again, what do you advise please?

He means that it's all going to run very quickly and likely suffer from pre-engagement resulting in the gearbox shitting itself quite rapidly.

What are you hoping to achieve? What is your desired end result? Also - how much experience do you have with working on AEG gearboxes?

hello's again,

                     after a day of trying to force myself to spend money on stuff, i finally did.

im going to keep the original,

                                                 470mm 6.02 inner brass barrel.

                                                 bell high performance piston head.

                                                 cylinder and cylinder head.

                                                 gearbox casing.

the piston head is the same as a Maxx high performance and i assume the rest are the same.

i have brought,

                                     13:1 BJX gears, shs delayer chips, sealed bearing, shims and some teflon grease.

                                     39k Brushless motor.

                                     Maxx Alloy hop-up with built in tracer , Prometheus bucking and nub.

                                     Kestrel v2 with wifi.

                                     shs tappit plate.

                                     alloy piston body.  

                                     lots of springs m90-120.

                                     o-ring silicone grease.

                            and a cleaning and unjamming rod kit.

all the stuff and the base gun have come to about £400.

i know i could have got a new gun but will all these parts, i can upgrade any V2 i decide to get later.

the new gears hopefully have the different timing chip placement.

the hop up was really hard to purchase as it was full price ?

the tappit plate in the gun looks worn already. 

can the kestrel work with the ported lightened gear set please?

anyone know how easy it would be to wire the tracer up please?

will it plug on to or be soldered to the Kestrel? or do i have to do some crazy wiring please?

i will be thinking about an inner barrel at some point, but is it worth it please?

It looks like the BJX gears you've bought are for a gel blaster, not an airsoft gun.

Alloy piston is a mistake.

The Maxx hop unit tracer connects to the motor terminals for the tracer. If you do that it may well cause an issue with the mosfet and will almost definitely cause an issue with a brushless motor.

 

[Cannonfodder]

m90/300fps with 0.2bb and 2 second max bursts. its an outdoor site, a lot of objects

Sorry bu cqb site I thought you meant an indoor site or a kill house rather than a field with some barricades.

and i have asked for gear advice, not much help going on....

You've been quite vague about what you want to achieve and have ignored given advice so it's not that surprising people aren't rushing to help

 

[MrPerforations]

thank you for the replies,

mostly i want to turn the gun in to a £400 gun instead of buying another.

   i found the gun was slow response and rate of fire a bit low. i got faster 13:1 gears for it and thought i would need a torque motor as well, i found a discount brushless and choose that no realizing it was to fast, i can replace with a 33k.

the piston is already becoming concave, probably from when i brought a new spring, it was to long , so i asked  and they said to put it in anyway and i was doing 400fps for a bit on full auto.

the bjx are not up to scratch then, the newer delay timing position on the sector is why i got them. i can get the another with that.

but what speed should i get please? 18,16,13?

should i keep the motor go change please?

 

[Skara]

Well it's not that easy to build a performing AEG out of the blue without any teching experience.

First of all you need to set a goal (rps, energy and such), then you need to understand how things work inside the gearbox before even looking at a website to buy things.

Plenty of guides around the internet, watch them and learn the theory behind teching.

Only after you've done all of this, you can look at your gun and check if you can actually achieve your goal with that or if you are better off buying a second gun.

 

[MrPerforations]

i contacted kestrel today about the rate of fire control with their etu unit.

there an adjustment on the back of the brushless motor to reduce the rpm to half, the 39k does 33k on 7.4v halved to 16.5k.

what i asked is does there mosfet etu just control the adjustment or digitally cycle the gun as well, giving another way to lower the cyclic rate of fire.

anyone have any idea if this is correct, please?

 

[Lozart]

i contacted kestrel today about the rate of fire control with their etu unit.

there an adjustment on the back of the brushless motor to reduce the rpm to half, the 39k does 33k on 7.4v halved to 16.5k.

what i asked is does there mosfet etu just control the adjustment or digitally cycle the gun as well, giving another way to lower the cyclic rate of fire.

anyone have any idea if this is correct, please?

Rate of fire control on a Mosfet just adds a delay into the cycle time, it doesn't affect the speed of the motor.

 

[MrPerforations]

thank you. 

sounds like as long as i set that up first the gun can run a stupidly fast trigger response?

 

[Skara]

The declared values are nominal, without any load applied.

The actual RPM under load depends on a lot of factors, spring rating, gear ratio, shimming, ETU, wire gauge, battery voltage, battery current and so on.

Generally it's impossible to achieve 100% efficiency to the declared value unless said value is not true.

For example my 36k warheads are 25k nominal on 7.4v but the actual RPM under load is closer to 20k rpm.

Most ETUs control the rate of fire by sending semi auto impulses at different frequencies which, as Lozart mentioned, doesn't affect the actual cycle time of the motor/gearbox.

For example, if your gun cycles in 25 milliseconds (netting a FA rof of 40 RPS), full auto at 50% won't make the gun cycle in 50 milliseconds, but rather cut the cycles in half (so 25 millisecond cycle, 25 millisecond delay, 25 millisecond cycle and so on to achieve a "finished" rate of fire of 20 RPS).

 

[Lozart]

thank you. 

sounds like as long as i set that up first the gun can run a stupidly fast trigger response?

Yes....and no. The issues with pre-engagement will still be there if the gears are cycling too quickly, adding a delay to it won't help.

In answer to your "what should I use" question, have you actually tried it with the stock gears and the 11.1v battery yet? Do that, swap the motor for the brushless and try it again. If it's still not quick enough, try a set of 16:1 gears (preferably a decent set like XT or SHS). Make sure you shim the gearbox properly or you risk it failing.

Don't just throw the bits all in at the same time because if you run into a problem, you won't know what caused it. Go slowly and change one thing at a time.

With the best will in the world, you are unlikely to turn a £150 rif into a £400 one by throwing loads of cheap parts at it, but you will (hopefully) learn how a gearbox works and have some fun along the way. Just don't set your expectations too high and you'll be fine.

 

[MrPerforations]

yes, ill take my time doing stuff and install bit by bit.

do you think, 

etu, 

then motor,

hop up,

and gears if needed.

please?

cool, that's what im after. a "normal" rate of fire and the more or less instant trigger response.

i'm still not sure of which gears would be best, what do you all suggest please?

im thinking 18:1 is probably needed and ordered a set with the later sector delay nub.

if you dont know what i mean, check adzzzy's armoury on you tube.