Opinions on UKAPU

[Colin Allen]

UKAPU does need to step up to justify it's existence, but to all those people complaining that they have all that money in savings, for a nation wide representative body 20k is nothing. To actually be effective they should have reserve fund multiple times that. If they were to actually have to fight a legal case or fund a white paper that money could be spent in a matter weeks, hell cost of lawyers could burn through that in days.   

I am not complaining about them having all that money, other than it apparently having been in a rather vulnerable PayPal account.  What I was wondering is what an organisation that seems to do virtually nothing to support airsoft as a hobby plans to do with that money.

I completely agree that £20k is nothing for a nation wide representative body.  However, UKAPU is not functioning as a a nation wide representative body, as can be seen by reading through through the AGM and Management Meeting minutes.

Would airsoft in the UK be any different if UKAPU did not exist?  I suspect that the answer to that is no.

 

[BigStew]

I am not complaining about them having all that money, other than it apparently having been in a rather vulnerable PayPal account.  What I was wondering is what an organisation that seems to do virtually nothing to support airsoft as a hobby plans to do with that money.

I completely agree that £20k is nothing for a nation wide representative body.  However, UKAPU is not functioning as a a nation wide representative body, as can be seen by reading through through the AGM and Management Meeting minutes.

Would airsoft in the UK be any different if UKAPU did not exist?  I suspect that the answer to that is no.

Complete right but we need a organisation with teeth capable of achieving protection for airsoft. We are still at a point that everything could be taken away by a Home Sectary we need written law for Airsoft.

 

[Speedbird_666]

we need written law for Airsoft.

Yeah - like there will be any appetite from any MP or any other Government official to back that one.

Airsoft the 'game' will continue even if all the defenses are removed. Many won't like the shape or colour of the guns we would have to use, but when it comes to toys shooting plastic BBs at each other - it will still happen.

Airsoft the 'collectors hobby' on the other hand....

 

[Tommikka]

The direction to take with MPs is not about a game of shooting people with gun like things.  
But if businesses in the recreational sports sector are the tactic then that’s what gets more positive support among MPs

…..if Airsoft was registered as a sport (like paintball is), then we potentially could have returned sooner.

Paintball isn’t registered / recognised as a sport …… but Sport England did recognise it as meeting the criteria for reopening during covid.

Key to that was the UKPSF as a recognised body, and being known to Sport England - they are not pursuing sports recognition to be in the Olympics etc, but for other benefits and support from Sport England (and other UK sports bodies) and that it brings recognition with local councils etc

 

[TacticalWaifu]

I've done some research into this previously.

The home nations sport councils (sportScotland, Sport England, Sport Wales, Sport Northern Ireland, and UK Sport) all have a joint recognition policy -- and their decision on what counts as sporting activity is defined by the Council of Europe’s 1992 European Sports Charter (as revised in 2001).

Essentially, what we'd need to see airsoft "recognised" as a sport in the UK would be a national Spoty Governing Body -- either one for each home nation as applicable, or a UK-wide SGB -- but the latter would need the agreement of all the above sport councils.

This would require a fair bit of work, as it would require such an organisation to achieve some level of status within the UK airsoft community, and indeed a fair level of organisation and governance. Right up my alley, but I'm not about to say "right lads, I'm starting the UK Airsoft Association, who wants to help?" -- at least, not unless folk thought it would be worthwhile ?

I can absolutely see the benefit of an SGB existing for airsoft, especially in terms of promoting it, recognition (including the possibility to apply for sports-earmarked funding to help further airsoft in the UK)... but I know some folk will balk at the idea of "governing body" and worry about rules and regulations being force upon them from on high. In a practical sense I don't think that's necessary, IMO a lot of things are covered by general good practice or UKARA anyway -- things like "accredited" sites having public liability insurance, potentially universal site FPS limits (or perhaps a "recommended" set, with sites ultimately being allowed to set their own within reason).

TL;DR: it would be a fair bit of work establishing such an organisation -- but if we got the critical mass of community players and site operators supporting the idea, we could grow such a governance organisation to the stage where it could apply for recognition with the sports councils, which would help give some quasi-legal definition/status to airsoft in the UK, as well as other privileges (like being able to apply for sports funding) -- as well as being in a much better position for advocacy and supporting player's rights.\

If anyone does like the idea (or hate or, or whatever else), my inbox is always open. I'd love to try and make something like this happen, as (1) it's well overdue, and (b) it's not like UKAPU - sadly - has much in the way of relevance or bite atm.

(UKAPU, no stealing this. Y'all can't even organise basic communication with members... ?)

 

[Tommikka]

In the context of the UKAPU, airsoft needs something to represent it.

The ABA represented industry and brought in the UKARA

But that represents retailers and sites, with player membership

Does it or does it not represent the player? Which is where the UKAPU and perhaps others come in

In paintball the UKPSF represents all, but has a very long history that precedes the UKPSF, with the original UK body morphing into the European body and the UKPSF becoming a stand-alone - back then it was all one man

Active player membership has expanded, and now ticks the box on membership with Sport England 

(Note that free membership didn’t qualify, but it was a steppingstone along the way)

Irrespective of what the UKAPU does or doesn’t do and how it is or isn’t recognised, it is something - and the attention it gets from players on threads like this does help the conversation and motivation 

 

[TacticalWaifu]

The direction to take with MPs is not about a game of shooting people with gun like things.  
But if businesses in the recreational sports sector are the tactic then that’s what gets more positive support among MPs

Paintball isn’t registered / recognised as a sport …… but Sport England did recognise it as meeting the criteria for reopening during covid.

Key to that was the UKPSF as a recognised body, and being known to Sport England - they are not pursuing sports recognition to be in the Olympics etc, but for other benefits and support from Sport England (and other UK sports bodies) and that it brings recognition with local councils etc

Absolutely this. Politically there are a few ways of describing airsoft which will  absolutely not garner support to the cause... ?

You replied while I was writing mine, but this is exactly the point -- there can be big advantages to having an SGB, from "recognition" to funding, certain statuses afforded to sports (in things like lockdown, etc.) - and being promoted as a "sport" rather than simply a hobby (push mental and physical health benefits, etc.) can do a lot to help improve public image / correct misconceptions.

 

[Tommikka]

I've done some research into this previously.

…..... but I know some folk will balk at the idea of "governing body" and worry about rules and regulations being force upon them from on high. In a practical sense I don't think that's necessary,

IMO a lot of things are covered by general good practice or UKARA anyway -- things like "accredited" sites having public liability insurance, potentially universal site FPS limits (or perhaps a "recommended" set, with sites ultimately being allowed to set their own within reason).

Absolutely 

(edit …. I’ve read your interims but will still stick to back slapping each other with ‘absolutely a’

There is no one set of rules in paintball.

We have had the UKSPC (scenario paintball community) which is very much forgotten and I ran the first UKSPC compliant event, my rulesets were already in that ball park, and every event since has had them as the core ruleset

Even a few years ago an international tournament set the single tournament world ruleset - which had US rules and rest of world rules.  (But it was by one US company so everyone got upset in the US)

What does matter is where you have highlighted: Standards 

The basic safety standards, best practice, and complying with the law

It was paintballs standards that enabled UKPSF member sites to be recognised under the ministry announcement, Sport England endorsement and then a member site had the processes and paperwork to get clearance from their local council 

 

[TacticalWaifu]

What does matter is where you have highlighted: Standards 

The basic safety standards, best practice, and complying with the law

It was paintballs standards that enabled UKPSF member sites to be recognised under the ministry announcement, Sport England endorsement and then a member site had the processes and paperwork to get clearance from their local council 

Precisely. A "governing body" doesn't have to mean someone new to tell players/sites what they can do, it's just agreed standards that -- other than helping meet sport council requirements by (among other things) demonstrating basic standards and organisation / "governance", they can focus on outreach and advocacy for airsoft in the UK

 

[Rogerborg]

I think maybe if they open up and allow more volunteers to contribute

Well, "they" are we.  Just airsofters who volunteered to contribute, unpaid and with precious little thanks. A UKAPU rep is just a friend you haven't met (and shot).

There's a lot of commendable passion and energy in this thread; is there a way to direct that constructively towards helping UKAPU?

(I regret that, like David, I've had to put airsoft on the back burner for now, so I'll only be cheering from the sidelines).

 

[TacticalWaifu]

Personally I think the SGB aspect is needed, but isn't necessarily UKAPU-specific -- in fact given how UKAPU has been for the last few years anyway, a different team/org would seem more suitable for the "recognised as a sport" goal.

UKAPU-wise, there's not much any of us can do until members have the opportunity to nominate themselves (or others) for the committee elections, prior to the next AGM. At that point certainly folk can help constructively by offering to stand for an officer post, or indeed ask the committee about other non-officer ways of helping UKAPU... I know I will be, at any rate ?

Calling out the significant issues is quite right IMO, they've been going on long enough -- I don't now about others, but I'm certainly looking at putting my passion and energy into things including UKAPU, and have had several conversations in DM with others about this.

 

[UKAPU Press Office]

Good afternoon!

As noted above, I have created an official UKAPU Press Office account in order to be able to officially communicate out to members here on the AF-UK forum. It will be handed over to the next Press Officer following the AGM (if a hand over is necessary).

Over the next week or so my aim is to update and begin reusing the various social media platforms, as these have regrettably stood dormant for a while. 
 

Initial drafts of press releases concerning both the AGM and present structure of the committee have been written, and will shortly be reviewed prior to release. 
 

I am glad to hear our members and non-members alike are still keen to engage with us, especially with reference to the future of UKAPU and a potential governing body. 
 

 

[typefish]

I've done some research into this previously

Since the topic has migrated over to national governing bodies, I feel that I can safely return to this thread!

As someone who has spent a lot of time looking into this over the past seven years, I feel confident in saying that the main issue to do with national governing bodies, as I'm sure you may be aware, is money.

There is a rather disappointing reason why bodies such as the NABV, an organisation that was set up by a team of skirmishers and sites at the insistence of the Dutch Government, are needing to charge approximately £62 a year in order to allow skirmishers to be considered to play airsoft, and that reason is liability.

But first, the numbers: whilst we don't have any up to date numbers on how many active skirmishers that there are in the UK, the number that we've been officially floating has been about 60,000. If that number represents actual skirmishers, that would suggest that £5 would bring in £300k per annum and £50 (if we normalised the numbers a bit) would bring in just shy of £2 million per annum.

I don't believe that anywhere near that amount of money would be brought in, nor do I believe that sites in the UK would, excepting some massive disastrous push from a future Government where airsoft skirmishers were restricted to allowing those that were fully paid up, formal members of some sort of registered organisation (which I hope organisations such as UKAPU would aggressively campaign against)

Now, to the concept of liability: anything that a governing body issues as advice, is issued in the name of the body and as such it is the body carries the liability.

I had no problem with helping those with import issues with their queries, because if we as an organisation ended up offering duff advice, then an organisation such as UKAPU (or more accurately, it's executive committee as was correctly pointed out upthread) would not have much in terms of exposure. On the scale of a purchasing a replacement RIF I would suggest, but we've never had to do that thankfully.

However, when questions are raised like health and safety (read: eye protection) or how to deal with errand players deliberately and seriously injuring other players during game play, you may end up in the realm of some quite rather expensive personal injury claims being pointed in the direction of the body who issued those guidances.

Not just through sites working to best practices of a particular governing body, but manufacturers wishing to understand which specification they need to build their personal protection equipment towards, retailers understanding what goods they can sell without encountering liability etc.

At present, liability falls almost solely on site owners, backed by their public liability insurance. Waivers, as much as people wish they waive all liability, still leave the site owners with a fair amount of exposure.

Now, how do we get around the issue of liability, one asks? An organisation could issue guidance with a waiver of liability however the outcome of obtaining legal advice was that not only would that be seen as unprofessional from an organisation issuing such guidances, but any waiver of liability would be... not worth much in a court.

So, the realistic answer is to purchase insurance. I'm not in the position to discuss exactly how much I personally was quoted per annum however I hope you can tell how disappointed I was when I found it out that it was a five figure sum. It could have been purchased, but it was not the best use of money.

There's also the elephant in the room that is "I won't do what you tell me" which... is a topic for another day!

Note 1: what is being posted below is my personal opinion. It is not the opinion of UKAPU and therefore should not be interpreted as such.

Note 2: the linked High Court case is referring to a case where one rugby player had been involved with a dangerous tackle and caused paralysis to a second rugby player. Whilst it was found that the defendant (the rugby player who initiated the dangerous tackle) was liable, it was ultimately brought to determine whether or not the insurance policy that covered the defendant (arranged by the NGB) had to pay out.

 

[Pseudotectonic]

I wonder if a newer airsoft standard (or any "definition") can be useful and to what extent. There is already a set of de facto standard, which is the legal joule limits for the RIFs, requirements for eye protection (probably required by insurance), and sites having third party liability insurance being a legal requirement (in order to count as VCRA permitted activities).

One can argue any more regulation than that is not really necessary and is just going to limit the open-ended nature of the hobby.

One can even argue airsoft is not a sport because it is too open-ended.

Therefore any new standard can only become one variant of airsoft, but not the entire hobby. And if it proves to be more accessible to beginners and more fun to play and more safe to play and therefore more profitable to run, then nobody will need to enforce it because fields will be adopting it automatically.

So the question becomes, what could be a more popular, more fun, more fair, more safe, and more profitable form of airsoft? Or is it all external factors like cultural perception of guns for example?

Then the question becomes, shouldn't this be left to market competition between airsoft fields to figure out?

Then the question becomes, isn't the internet forums already playing the role of think tank? What can a bunch of committee do better than the internet?

Then the question becomes, is the idea of an airsoft association even useful, and what is it that only a bunch of committee can do and nobody else can? Is it mainly an ambassador or representation type of role? Or a journalist?

Then the question becomes, should it rather be a youtube channel or a magazine or something?

Then the question becomes, should it rather be a business who get sponsorships from sporting or tactical clothing companies or things of that nature and produce entertainment content about airsoft, like famous guntubers like Matt from Evike? (That was a joke)

Then the question becomes, shouldn't a UKARA clone be promoting the sport? After all retailers are the biggest players in the airsoft economy, aren't they?

Then the question becomes, what does a player union even do? Lobbying group? Lobbying for what? What bargaining power does it have? What is there to lobby that the free market is not able to invent? Maybe acting as market research agency working with UKARA and field owners and players and sponsors and insurance brokers? Or is it merely a symbol for the fragmented nature of the airsoft hobby?

In fact don't we already have a model for this? SpeedQB has their own version of airsoft and is doing great!

 

[Tommikka]

, requirements for eye protection (probably required by insurance), and ……

One can argue any more regulation than that is not really necessary and is just going to limit the open-ended nature of the hobby.

Cue next thread drift….?

Is there a standard in airsoft eye protection?

Lens impact protection - yes

Under 18s full face protection - yes

On top of that - any adult can wear any style of glasses provided they are impact compliant.

Hands up everyone who has seen a BB end up inside the eye area of airsof glasses

 

[typefish]

Then the question becomes, should it rather be a business who get sponsorships from sporting or tactical clothing companies or things of that nature and produce entertainment content about airsoft, like famous guntubers like Matt from Evike? (That was a joke)

I wouldn't joke about that, as when shit has hit the fan, it's the brand ambassadors and content creators (which does include journalists) with actual reach that can help throw something important into the public eye that on the face of it, most people would not care about, even if to those in the know it is scary.

 

[Tactical Pith Helmet]

Then the question becomes, what does a player union even do? Lobbying group? Lobbying for what? What bargaining power does it have? What is there to lobby that the free market is not able to invent? Maybe acting as market research agency working with UKARA and field owners and players and sponsors and insurance brokers? Or is it merely a symbol for the fragmented nature of the airsoft hobby?

View attachment 110327

 

[Pseudotectonic]

Indeed the recent Bill C-21 from Canada and the CPSC-2023-0021 from the US are both excellent case studies.

Both did not have any existing airsoft association or things of that nature, but both "communities" organised and mobilised themselves to do the lobbying. The retailers and field owners and players got together to achieve one goal, and they were effective at it and they succeeded.

Youtube undoubtedly played a key role in both cases (especially for the US) because of how easy it is to have someone clearly explain a cause, and to have the link easily copy pastable, so words can spread quickly.

Both are precisely the sort of threats we think about when we say airsoft needs protection. If something very similar were to happen in the UK, say some sort of bill being proposed affecting airsoft in some way, do we as a community have the resources for ad hoc organisation? In fact, isn't UKARA already doing all the behind-the-scene stuff? Heck, UKARA itself appears to be a very product of past lobbying that became quasi-official regulatory body if there is one.

Which again brings the question of why would we need a "peacetime" airsoft association in the first place. It would seem evident that its entire raison d'être can be better served by a bunch of youtubers. What is it different about UK airsoft that we need something the Canadians and Americans don't?

 

[typefish]

Both are precisely the sort of threats we think about when we say airsoft needs protection. If something very similar were to happen in the UK, say some sort of bill being proposed affecting airsoft in some way, do we as a community have the resources for ad hoc organisation? In fact, isn't UKARA already doing all the behind-the-scene stuff? Heck, UKARA itself appears to be a very product of past lobbying that became quasi-official regulatory body if there is one.

Both UKARA and UKAPU do the behind the scenes stuff.

 

[TacticalWaifu]

One can argue any more regulation than that is not really necessary and is just going to limit the open-ended nature of the hobby.

One can even argue airsoft is not a sport because it is too open-ended.

[more whataboutism and hypotheticals]

Then the question becomes, what does a player union even do? Lobbying group? Lobbying for what? What bargaining power does it have? What is there to lobby that the free market is not able to invent? Maybe acting as market research agency working with UKARA and field owners and players and sponsors and insurance brokers? Or is it merely a symbol for the fragmented nature of the airsoft hobby?

"One can argue" the sky is white and the sea is blaze orange, doesn't make it true, or relevant to this thread.

Nobody proposed "any more regulation" than what is actually required, if you took the time to read the thread properly. The idea of an SGB was raised specifically with the concern that it not needlessly encumber players or operators.

As for the "one can even argue one is airsoft is not a sport" ... you're just trolling for trolling's sake. The ESC definition of "sport" is:

"Sport" means all forms of physical activity which, through casual or organised participation, aim at expressing or improving physical fitness and mental well-being, forming social relationships or obtaining results in competition at all levels

Let's see how that related to airsoft, shall we?

• Casual participation: yes, walk onto any skirmish site and just play.
  
• Organized participation: yes, there are pre-arranged game days and game modes available, as well as the likes of milsim events.
  
• A lot of players have said improving their health happened to be an aim, and probably a greater number say it tends to be a good thing for their mental well-being - in the same way riding a motorcycle can improve well-being for bikers.
  
• Forming social relationships? Absolutely.
  
• Obtaining results in competition at all levels: an option, not a requirement, but yes -- UK has held qualifiers for the G&G World Cup, the UK Action Shooting Association was a thing (UK association for ActionAirgun), and was later associated with IAPS (International Airsoft Practical Shooting), never mind sites having ranges with electronic targets where competitions have been held... so yes, absolutely has and can be competitive in the formal definition.
  

As such, you can try and argue it's not a sport all you want (although I don't see why you'd feel the need to try and thrust yourself upon that particular sword), but the European Sports Charter would disagree with you... as would the OED:

An activity involving physical exertion and skill, esp. (particularly in modern use) one regulated by set rules or customs in which an individual or team competes against another or others.

Definitely involves physical exertion, and skill -- you can't just run around spamming full auto and "win the game" - there are additionally rules and customs adopted, so yeah - whether you see it as just a hobby or not is up to you, but it's absolutely a sport.

Returning to the UKAPU question, "what do they even do" is a very valid question, especially given their total silence in recent years. "Bargaining power" would generally apply to the likes of unions, or large organisations like the NHS having large quotas to fill, when seeking preferential pricing with manufactures -- an association with free membership and a couple of thousand members doesn't have bargaining power.

The "free market" is irrelevant if manufacture specs, usage, etc. are curtailed by legislation -- so that point doesn't apply, either.

UKAPU absolutely aren't (and shouldn't be) market research ?

The idea of a national "sport governing body," working to the aim of formal recognition within the UK, is the *opposite* of your "fragmented nature" analogy, but it would seem apparent with the long list of hypotheticals, that you just want to say your piece. You seem to have had the very knee-jerk reaction to the word governing that I addressed in my very first mention of it - and that it need not have much more than existing agreed-upon standards, and some formal organisation - but with a much greater cause and end result.

Hands up everyone who has seen a BB end up inside the eye area of airsof glasses