US - Airsoft under threat?

[Colin Allen]

Agressive and fearful society with terrible mental health care? For sure. A horrible education system? Absolutely. However just stating that our system is well and truly messed up doesn’t do much for us is ordinary Joes. The question is, what should ordinary people do to combat both the symptoms of the problem, and the roots.

I’m curious to hear why you think my view is simplistic.

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The part that I highlighted is incredibly simplistic; it is the classic argument that guns are not the problem and that "an armed society is a safe society".

Guns may not be the whole of the problem but they are a very large part of it; having an armed society hasn't worked out particularly well for you, has it?  Has it created a safer society?

I don't think that there is anything that ordinary Joes like you can do; the situation has reached the point where you just have to accept that dead schoolchildren are the price you have to pay for an obsession with owning guns and a devotion to every word, comma, full stop etc of an outdated constitution that prevents people from accepting that the conditional clause of the second amendment is now obsolete, thus voiding the right to keep and bear arms.

 

[RostokMcSpoons]

https://www.foxnews.com/us/texas-church-shooting-man-take-out-gunman-west-freeway-church

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Have you heard the saying "it's the exception that proves the rule".   For a long time I really didn't understand the logic of that saying, but I think I do now.  You've just given us an example.. you think armed Good Guys will stop the Bad Guy, but you're linking an article from 2019.  It just doesn't happen enough, they're exceptions.

I don't think widening gun ownership to the point everyone is carrying is the way to go.  The idea of all those untrained itchy trigger fingers, all those guns owned by double-digit IQ idiots, all those angry people with hot tempers... Too likely to get shot by accident or anger.  Scary.

 

[Lozart]

Agressive and fearful society with terrible mental health care? For sure. A horrible education system? Absolutely. However just stating that our system is well and truly messed up doesn’t do much for us is ordinary Joes. The question is, what should ordinary people do to combat both the symptoms of the problem, and the roots.

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Far too much blame is laid at the feet of "mental health" when it comes to the big headline grabbers like mass shootings. Mental health is more of an issue in that something around 60% of gun deaths in the USA are suicides. Not because there are more suicidal people in the US but because they have such ready access to a very effective means of succeeding. A very high percentage of first suicide attempts in this country that fail end up with the person feeling completely differently within hours of the attempt, not an option with firearms.

As for the situation as a whole? That goes beyond the actual guns and is entrenched in the fibre of US society, particularly the vocal 2A crowd (from both sides of the political spectrum). My personal opinion is that the reliance on the "keep and bear arms" part of the 2nd Amendment is fine and well, but that it's taken WAY out of context and the "well regulated militia" bit gets glossed over. Everyone and their dog seems to want to interpret the constitution to suit their own agenda and hold that everything written in it is cast in stone with no consideration for the fact that modern society is (and should be) COMPLETELY different to the world that the founding fathers lived in. In the UK, legislation changes to reflect the times and yet the constitution is treated as if it's some immutable gospel, despite the fact that the very thing that they're arguing over IS A CHANGE. It's an AMENDMENT. It CAN be changed if it's needed!

 

[mightyjebus]

see this has turned into a American gun debate.

He's some wood for the fire:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

this is a paragraph from the 2nd amendment. Basically it means you can't stop people having guns as they may be needed to fight foreign or domestic enemys. However the average American can no longer go up against a corrupt American government as they have pistols and rifles against tanks, nukes, steath fighters, aircraft carriers and probably backwards engineered alien blasters for all I know.

No American politician is going to try to remove the 2nd amendment as that would be political suicide and fail if tried however what you can do, is over time take small chips from the amendment for brownie points and votes so you end up in the situation where the people can still have arms, just not arms that can overthrow a corrupt state or defeat an invading army.

Why is American airsoft on the radar, well probably because they are gun shaped and count as another chip. You see, even if it's successfully passed, you can still have an airsoft gun. Just not the one you wanted.

Should us Brits be concerned? well probably. Gun crime in the UK fell by 14% last year from the previous year. Handguns made up 40% of the 5600 cases last year. In 2nd place was imitation firearms coming in at about 25%. Doing simple politicians maths, remove the imitation firearms and that would remove 1400 serious crimes a year.

Our gun laws are stupid and confusing and probably for good reason. It would give someone with a political agenda good reason to throw them all out the window and start from scratch however historically every time the UK updates it's gun laws it all goes a bit horribly wrong. Let's hope the Yanks generate enough resistance to stop the change or we could find a hungry politician looking over our shoulder to see what we are doing.

 

[novioman]

Imitation firearms would also have to include many airguns, blank firers etc, so some sought of license possibly, that would involve millions of guns, a ban, possibly, but they would have to pay compensation, that would be billions. Who would run the license system, the police ? They are struggling in many forces to do renewals and grants for FAC’s and SGC’s, some people waiting a year for renewals.
The government did a ban/ or put it on licence with air cartridge guns, that backfired badly 60,000- 80,000 went underground according to government figures. 
If Labour becomes the government next year than I expect more aggro for legal gun ownership, but when it comes to airsoft, airgun replicas your looking at huge volumes of guns & people. 

 

[Leo Greer]

Have you heard the saying "it's the exception that proves the rule".   For a long time I really didn't understand the logic of that saying, but I think I do now.  You've just given us an example.. you think armed Good Guys will stop the Bad Guy, but you're linking an article from 2019.  It just doesn't happen enough, they're exceptions.

I don't think widening gun ownership to the point everyone is carrying is the way to go.  The idea of all those untrained itchy trigger fingers, all those guns owned by double-digit IQ idiots, all those angry people with hot tempers... Too likely to get shot by accident or anger.  Scary.

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When talking about civilians, you’re probably correct. This does not, however, account for any kind of preventative protection, or cops, who are also “Good Guys With Guns”.

In many areas, a large percentage of people carry. Half my coworkers carry, and their wives. And my bosses. And their wives. And their parents. (Not their children ?) I’m in Central Texas, which is both a very gun-rich area, and a very safe area.

This is not a hard fact, but cities and areas with stricter gun laws tend to be far less safe. I have been to every state and almost every major city in the USA—the areas that make it hard for citizens to defend themselves experience more violent crime. This is what I’ve seen from personal experience. Anyone can twist numbers to say what they want.

Obviously there are people in the world and even in my city that I wouldn’t hand a loaded handgun to. But, who am I to arbitrarily make that decision? What if someone else arbitrarily decided that I shouldn’t be allowed to own a firearm? It’s a slippery slope, deciding who should be allowed to do what.

I think I’ll agree with Colin; my view on these things is extremely simplistic. However, I see nothing wrong with that. I’m not an extremist of any wing trying to either set the 2nd amendment into iron, or to tear it down. I’m just an ordinary Joe who wants the ability to defend his family, and for his family to be able to defend themselves. I also don’t have any kind of political agenda—this is just an engaging discussion with me and a bunch of Brits on an online forum dedicated to shooting plastic balls at each other l. ?

 

[Tactical Pith Helmet]

Have you heard the saying "it's the exception that proves the rule".   For a long time I really didn't understand the logic of that saying, but I think I do now. 

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At risk of seeming pedantic, the logic of the saying is apparent when one remembers that 'prove' and 'test' are synonyms e.g. proving ground/test ground meaning the same thing.  

 

[Emergencychimps]

The majority of murders in the us are in the top 6 cities with the strictest gunlaws. 

There are too many guns in America to magically just remove them, so as has been stated firearm legislation only affects those who follow the law. 

As for the debate of ar15s Vs tanks and nukes,  It's a silly one. 

The west (including the us) had tanks and nukes for Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan.....but it doesn't look like they won. This also assumes that in any civil war scenario all of the us military would be united behind the government. I suspect it wouldn't be that clear cut and even if they were, deploying nukes against your own populace seems extreme.....but I guess it depends on the situation. 

The us has huge social and economic problems, terrible healthcare and social support. The gap between the haves and the have nots is huge. Mass shootings are awful, I think we can agree that you need to be mentally unhinged to do that and becoming that unhinged doesnt happen in a few days. Other countries intervene sooner with healthcare or social care etc which the us doesn't do well enough. When they don't they go onto do mass stabbings like in France really. While they're unhinged, they go for soft, easy, gun free targets. As such, having examples for it means there needs to be a person on site who is breaking the law AND is willing and AND is competent enough to get involved.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenwood_Park_Mall_shooting

This is another relatively recent example of a person stopping and intended mass shooter. This also doesn't factor in other crimes that legal firearm ownership prevents or the crimes that aren't even attempted due to the risk of the victim being armed.

Should you treat the sick person or take guns away from law abiding citizens? 

Switzerland has just under half the number of guns per capita, if the social healthcare and welfare systems didn't impact this, then they'd have just under half the mass shooting incidents, they don't. 

My personal opinion is that the country is messed up, reform is needed and I'd probably address the health care and social welfare available first as guns won't magically disappear. 

 

[Guest]

The majority of murders in the us are in the top 6 cities with the strictest gunlaws.

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Citation? Not questioning it, but would like to see the source for future ref, cheers

 

[Colin Allen]

Having read their Govt proposals, no wonder they are shitting a brick

Have a look at some of their proposals

A ban on imports

Rifs manufactured in either a transparent plastic or non real looking exteriors

View attachment 109385

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That is neither a ban on imports nor a requirement for them to be either transparent plastic or non-real looking colours. A 6mm orange band on the muzzle meets the requirements.

As for the testing regime, a "reasonable testing program" is required but what constitutes reasonable is not defined.  It is up to the manufacturer or "private labeler" to certify that the product meets the requirement of having the required marking.  This would probably not be an onerous requirement.

 

[Guest]

Aside from Airsoft, I have a nasty feeling this will impact upon two of my other hobbies, clay pigeon and target shooting. 

No firearms legislation ever makes ownership and use any easier. With the upcoming U.K. ban on lead ammunition, the Scottish parliament discussing changing laws on planning permission for shooting on private land and the U.K. gov. investigating ways to tighten up shotgun/firearms ownership in light of the recent tragic events in Plymouth and Epsom, it’s only going to get worse. 

 

[Colin Allen]

Aside from Airsoft, I have a nasty feeling this will impact upon two of my other hobbies, clay pigeon and target shooting. 

No firearms legislation ever makes ownership and use any easier. With the upcoming U.K. ban on lead ammunition, the Scottish parliament discussing changing laws on planning permission for shooting on private land and the U.K. gov. investigating ways to tighten up shotgun/firearms ownership in light of the recent tragic events in Plymouth and Epsom, it’s only going to get worse. 

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I cannot quite see how US regulations regarding imitation firearms will impact shooting hobbies in the UK.

I expect new legislation will make ownership and use of firearms more difficult; given that we still have incidents such as the ones that you describe, that is almost inevitable.

To be honest, outside a few legitimate reasons, I cannot see why anyone in the UK needs to own a firearm.

 

[Guest]

I cannot quite see how US regulations regarding imitation firearms will impact shooting hobbies in the UK.

I expect new legislation will make ownership and use of firearms more difficult; given that we still have incidents such as the ones that you describe, that is almost inevitable.

To be honest, outside a few legitimate reasons, I cannot see why anyone in the UK needs to own a firearm.

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It’s called legislation creep. A prime current example is AI, one country starts talking about trying to legislate, other partner countries do the same.

Firearms even more so, as a large proportion of the UK population seem to think (as you appear to) that “nobody needs a firearm”.

In response to that, way more legally held cars kill and injure people in the UK than firearms. Almost nobody has a legitimate reason to own a car. Get a bus and/or a train.

Also, see my first point “First they came for the communists….”

Don’t f****** try and tell me what’s legitimate and what’s not in my life. ****

 

[Tommikka]

To be honest, outside a few legitimate reasons, I cannot see why anyone in the UK needs to own a firearm.

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There are two key points there …. “A few legitimate reasons”

and “need”

There is only ever a “need” for anything due to a “few legitimate reasons”

There are valid “needs” for firearms, and there are also valid “wants” for firearms.

Those are what the licencing process look at, and under the wider umbrella of firearms as defined by legislation there are those that do not require any licence/certificate/membership

 

[Tommikka]

It’s called legislation creep.
 

…….

Firearms even more so, as a large proportion of the UK population seem to think (as you appear to) that “nobody needs a firearm”.

….

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I have a foot in both camps - don’t worry about the politicians / legislation creep etc and do worry about them - my greatest fear is “people”, and our greatest defence is our communities 

As I repeatedly point out, my world and pleasure lies in paintball.  I also have an interest in airsoft via events etc.

Whats more key are the two points of my passion in encouraging people to try things out, even namby pamby fashion obsessed airsofters,  (Especially as my real love of scenario paintball has a direct relationship to airsoft skirmishing) and in “safeguarding” the fun of shooting things

The odd anti gun politicians are very vocal, but don’t have as much influence as they may appear to - unless you look at Scotland 

My greater fear is with the dickheads, and Im very happy when existing legislation is used against them, to a degree I’m mildly happy when they get a slap on the wrist as that can be a sensible “education” but it does come with the risk of it looking like things are too soft and more legislation is required - as opposed to the police / authorities using some common sense and discretion

(Sometimes I read articles with a slap on the wrist, education and a statement that “no offence as committed” - that is a get out clause to avoid blaming the police for being soft but is rarely true, and would be more in line with “it’s not in the public interest to prosecute this case with some eduction getting greater benefit”)

There appears to be things happening at the moment with either deliberate or ignorant attempts to import “home defence” guns which get referred to the UKPSF (at the moment the relationship between the UKPSF/Home Office/police/customs/border force is working well, and on a parralel a major pyro company  have been contacted by the police for many years over misuse of pyro - advising on types of pyro and enabling safe/controled disposal )

There also appears to have been a “surge” in threads about airsoft/home defence/paintball being found & seized in “non standard” circumstances 

…….

one of my usual rambling posts - we should maintain an eye out on national and international things, condemn the wrong doers and advise the inquisitive

On the face of it, in my opinion, “we” have nothing to fear with a US version of the VCRA and I can see good reasons for them getting one.  But that doesn’t mean we bury our heads in the sand

 

[-Cowboy-]

The irony of making replicas harder to buy and use than the real thing. 

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Honestly I think it was easier to get a shotgun certificate, I certainly didn't have to join a shooting ground or prove I'd been to one to be able to buy a gun. I still find it weird I have to jump through hoops to get something that looks like a gun when I have a cabinet full of actual guns but then the UK's licensing system is an absolute mess littered with knee jerk legislation that often makes no sense at all.

 

[Rogerborg]

To be honest, outside a few legitimate reasons, I cannot see why anyone in the UK needs to own a firearm.

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Careful now. Many people would apply the same argument to realistic imitation firearms.  And would not consider "running around in the woods dressed up as a pretend soldier going 'Pew! Pew! Pew!'" to be a legitimate reason.

We were only granted that as an afterthought, on a Ministerial whim that could be withdrawn at any time.

Back on topic, I do agree that this looks like a lot of doom-mongering over a tiny orange band, when airsoft toys seem to come fitted with full orange muzzle devices in the Colonies right now.  On a strict reading, you could even paint a bit of orange on the barrel of a pistol that's fully recessed inside the slide, since there's no requirement for it to be visible.

However, the kicker might be the interpretation of "manufacture", if it's interpreted to meaning removing or covering up the day-glo.

The lawyers will win, as always.

 

[rj1986]

I've had the misfortune of talking to a couple of Americans on Reddit about this. There seems to be a theme running through their thought process of only dealing in absolutes.

When the VCRA kicked it, we formed bodies, lobbied for compromise and tried to ring fence the sport (could strongly argue for the good).

The Americans are very much in the stance of the bill must be stopped at all costs, and not even willing to compromise on some sort of USARA or have a body formed to be that focal point between the law makers and retailers/importers/players.

Which is a tad ironic considering how much power the NRA holds over there, and their lobbying has made buying a gun in some places so simplistic.

 

[Dan Robinson]

I'm trying not to criticise the US too much because I know the UK system is far from perfect....  FFS my dad is safety officer for his Clay shoot and he can't tell the teals from the specs in his vision ?.

But at the same time I was genuinely emotional when I saw a video of a parent teaching her 5 year old what to do in the event of a school shooting and which way round to the put the body armour panel into her backpack.    I mean - how fucked is a society where this is the norm and people think that having every Tom Dick and Harry armed to the teeth is anything other than a bad idea.

Australia sorted their shit after Port Arthur and all their subsequent half dozen or so "mass shootings", bar one, have been people going nuts and shooting family members.  Switzerland is a bit of an anomaly in that they still have conscription, which I think is a good idea, but are also a neutral country - their take on potential invasions is fairly unique. However, they average less than one mass shooting per year.

We have only had nine since Dunblane and of those some didn't have any fatalities.

and not even willing to compromise on some sort of USARA or have a body formed to be that focal point between the law makers and retailers/importers/players.

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They see the registration process as some form of infringement of their rights - not considering that they have to register and insure their cars.  Well the non sov-cits anyway.

 

[Cr0-Magnon]

They see the registration process as some form of infringement of their rights - not considering that they have to register and insure their cars.  Well the non sov-cits anyway.

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They see it as giving more ground to people who aren't really seeking gun registration, but whose end goal is eventually banning all private firearm ownership.