Two tone guns

[Tommikka]

The law does not distinguish what happened in the past or present, the fact is that its a two tone gun that should have those two tone parts replaced with non-tone parts.

People assuming that because something happened in the past, is exempt, is just not true... 

In this case, the fact that the receiver of the gift is in the same household would also negate any claims of no prior knowledge that it was previously a two tone.

Possession is not an offence

The only offence is modification under section 36 of the VCRA, and section 37 covers the defences.

The modification in the past could have been fully legally compliant 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/38/section/37

It’s not in the same league as ‘receiving stolen goods’ in that the offence can be repeated into the future and by subsequent people 

The section 36 offences are manufacture (including modification), import and sale

They occur at the time and subsequent changing of hands are either a new offence or are not an offence

In the original draft of the VCR bill

was an explicit offence of painting / modifying an IF into a RIF which did not have the section 37 defences 

The final VCR act does not have that as a separate offence - only within 36 which has defences in 37

 

[Tommikka]

Note that I have also (legally) received stolen goods

I buy items at auction, some of which are under police auctions of recovered goods 

I’ve also purchased RIFs at auction without providing any defence, and I have no intent to play airsoft …. The auction may have committed offences  …. I have two intents which I have not presented to the auction: 

1) act as a seller and will want to see documentation of a defence 

2) as an event organiser use the RIFs for players within an insured site 

 

[Rogerborg]

The law does not distinguish what happened in the past or present,

Who said that it did?

It does however distinguish between a discrete act, and an ongoing course of conduct.

the fact is that its a two tone gun that should have those two tone parts replaced with non-tone parts.

The fact is that it is not a "two tone gun", firstly because no such definition exists in law.  It's either a realistic imitation firearm, or an (implicitly non realistic) imitation firearm.

And it is a realistic imitation firearm.  What it might have been in the past isn't relevant to what it is now.

Who is under an obligation to modify it into a non-realistic imitation firearm, and why?

What offence is being committed if they do not?

Is the offence an action, or a course of conduct?

Which Act and Section defines the offence?

People assuming that because something happened in the past, is exempt, is just not true... 

Good job nobody except you is making that point then.

We're all going to agree that an offence was committed at the point where it was modified into a RIF.

However, it sounds likely that a defence could be adduced, and it's irrelevant to the recipient, and always has been, now or in the past, as they committed, and are committing, no offence by accepting or possessing it.

In this case, the fact that the receiver of the gift is in the same household would also negate any claims of no prior knowledge that it was previously a two tone.

And what's the relevance of that?  No offence was committed by either the person making or receiving the gift through the act of gifting.  No defence is required, not that ignorance is listed as one.

The amazing thing is that you do actually know the relevant legislation, which lists the relevant offences, and yet you've gone ahead and imagined up some more.

Wait... do you work for the police or CPS?

 

[Guest]

Wait... do you work for the police or CPS?

???

I’m going to say Traffic, absolutely point blank refuses to accept he is wrong despite copious amounts of evidence saying otherwise 

 

[AirSniper]

If you live in the same house as someone, then you have prior knowledge, so if you try to claim otherwise and its been established that the item in question was present at a time the accused is in possession, trying to go for a "Didn't know" defence is not going to get you very far and courts look dimly on that as it is if you check.

No, I am not CPS but I have had to represent myself in court 5 times already and won 4 and drew 1.

Half my family are in the law business or doctors or professors in things like physics, geological sciences and lots of tech industries, so my head gets filled up with lots of information because if I am to hold conversation with family members, I have to talk to them in their language.

I have also been around the block more than several times and rebuilt my life three times, I am a Taurus, like the colour blue and my bread is buttered right side up and like shooting, breathing and eating...

In the one I drew on, the defence managed to confuse the judge that much that I had no hope of unravelling their twisted method of screwing up the facts. The judge had enough and just threw it out, so it was a draw with a "you're both square" but worked out in the end because I got 4 times the compensation payout.

 

[Tommikka]

If you live in the same house as someone, then you have prior knowledge, so if you try to claim otherwise and its been established that the item in question was present at a time the accused is in possession, trying to go for a "Didn't know" defence is not going to get you very far and courts look dimly on that as it is if you check.

No, I am not CPS but I have had to represent myself in court 5 times already and won 4 and drew 1.

Half my family are in the law business or doctors or professors in things like physics, geological sciences and lots of tech industries, so my head gets filled up with lots of information because if I am to hold conversation with family members, I have to talk to them in their language.

I have also been around the block more than several times and rebuilt my life three times, I am a Taurus, like the colour blue and my bread is buttered right side up and like shooting, breathing and eating...

In the one I drew on, the defence managed to confuse the judge that much that I had no hope of unravelling their twisted method of screwing up the facts. The judge had enough and just threw it out, so it was a draw with a "you're both square" but worked out in the end because I got 4 times the compensation payout.

That prior knowledge could be of a section 36 offence with a section 37 Defence, and therefore prior knowledge that no crime has been committed 

 

[AirSniper]

That prior knowledge could be of a section 36 offence with a section 37 Defence, and therefore prior knowledge that no crime has been committed 

You either have "NO PRIOR KNOWLEDGE" or you have "PRIOR KNOWLEDGE" of something.

There is no in between, I did have to learn the hard way in court about arguing to win and found that law is a quagmire of apparent grey areas that really are not, you can't apply your interpretation of the law as you see fit because the law, is very carefully written in a way to be precise, to the matter of fact, outlining the boundaries of what is or is not legal and so on.

Law only deals in facts that can be proven or demonstrated... There is plenty of case law that demonstrates the process of two parties, often an individual against an organisation, much like myself on all those cases I was in court with, having to cross examine people on their statements, etc. 

The devil is in the detail and if you can stand there and argue no prior knowledge, good luck to you as I doubt that you'd convince CPS or the Judge. Had I taken up the offer to go in to Magistrates training and this argument was brought before me, I know what ruling I would be making, mainly because it is prior knowledge. 

WHY do people want to play with fire? Why not just buy the mono tone (black.grey/tan or polka dot) that fits the RIF and then play safe and have done with it. Its gifted, the OP's old enough to legally own one, just swap out the parts to remove any doubt or possibility that you can be picked up, just astounds me that people will rather argue that someone is OK to do something when clearly there is a law at play here and the easiest option is to "PERFORM A REPAIR" by swapping out all that is two tone on it, have done with it as then the law would need to prove wrong doing before they could take action.

Is that a better option or would you rather play a game of chance with the law. I know I would rather have my liberty than bricked up for up to 2 years.

 

[Tommikka]

You either have "NO PRIOR KNOWLEDGE" or you have "PRIOR KNOWLEDGE" of something.

There is no in between, I did have to learn the hard way in court about arguing to win and found that law is a quagmire of apparent grey areas that really are not, you can't apply your interpretation of the law as you see fit because the law, is very carefully written in a way to be precise, to the matter of fact, outlining the boundaries of what is or is not legal and so on.

Law only deals in facts that can be proven or demonstrated... There is plenty of case law that demonstrates the process of two parties, often an individual against an organisation, much like myself on all those cases I was in court with, having to cross examine people on their statements, etc. 

The devil is in the detail and if you can stand there and argue no prior knowledge, good luck to you as I doubt that you'd convince CPS or the Judge. Had I taken up the offer to go in to Magistrates training and this argument was brought before me, I know what ruling I would be making, mainly because it is prior knowledge. 

WHY do people want to play with fire? Why not just buy the mono tone (black.grey/tan or polka dot) that fits the RIF and then play safe and have done with it. Its gifted, the OP's old enough to legally own one, just swap out the parts to remove any doubt or possibility that you can be picked up, just astounds me that people will rather argue that someone is OK to do something when clearly there is a law at play here and the easiest option is to "PERFORM A REPAIR" by swapping out all that is two tone on it, have done with it as then the law would need to prove wrong doing before they could take action.

Is that a better option or would you rather play a game of chance with the law. I know I would rather have my liberty than bricked up for up to 2 years.

What offence has been committed?

Painting an IF into a RIF is the same offence as ‘repairing’ an IF by changing coloured parts. (Which would pretty much be changing the body shell)

The difference being that painting an IF has paint as evidence.

If the intent of the modifier is one of the VCRA defences then no crime has been committed 

 Note that you have referred to grey areas and highlighted that they really are not grey areas.  They are an element that is subject to opinion until it’s gone through court.

‘Gifting’ is the grey area.  The law details sale, import and manufacture.  People have interpreted that giving a RIF/IF to someone under 18 is legal because it is not mentioned.  This has not been tested in court. If a court decides that the intent of the VCRA is to place controls on the transfer of RIFs/IFs as opposed to the contractual elements of a sale transaction then gifting a RIF without a defence would be illegal and gifting a RIF/IF to a minor would be illegal 

That’s the grey area of the VCRA, the section 37 defences are in black and white (taking into account the fact that Airsoft skirmishing is a supplement by statutory instrument)

 

[Tommikka]

Is that a better option or would you rather play a game of chance with the law. I know I would rather have my liberty than bricked up for up to 2 years.

PS

where are you getting a 2 years in custody from?

The maximum sentence is 51 weeks, which is below one year therefore you would serve half that time, would not be subject to probation and would also get any deductions for time served pending trial.  
So up to 6 months, which isn’t really enough time to learn a trade & get some qualifications in a Prison Industries workshop

There may also either the custodial, a fine or both custodial and fine.  The fine is at level 5 fine which isn’t to be sniffed at as this level could now be unlimited in England.  Level 5 has previously been £2000, £5000, £10000 

9)An offence under this section shall be punishable, on summary conviction—

(a)in England and Wales, with imprisonment for a term not exceeding 51 weeks or with a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale, or with both; and

(b)in Scotland, with imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or with a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale, or with both.

http://www.prisonreformtrust.org.uk/Portals/0/Documents/PIB extract - Working out how long you will be in prison.pdf

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_scale

 

[AirSniper]

Modifying something makes that item fall under the firearms act.

You make it more powerful by increasing the joules power to go over the maximum legal limits, you're committing a firearms offence.

The 2 years, can't remember if it was policing and crime act, VCRA, firearms act, public safety as some elements of the sport fall under HSE's guidance, controls and the laws at their disposal. Its why you have to have a minimum level of PPE to play.

There is a whole raft of legislation that players do not seem aware of that controls the game or their actions in the following consequences for ignoring those legislative rules for public and personal safety.

I have suggested a legitimate fix to get around the issue, all I am doing is highlighting things that could potentially bit you for failing to do the simpler and better route of replacing the tone parts on the RIF because a "REPAIR" is not technically a modification if the parts are damaged as I understand, replacement tone parts is hard to come across, I have only seen one site and that is in the USA. (no I don't have a bookmark for it)

 

[Tommikka]

Modifying something makes that item fall under the firearms act.

You make it more powerful by increasing the joules power to go over the maximum legal limits, you're committing a firearms offence.

The 2 years, can't remember if it was policing and crime act, VCRA, firearms act, public safety as some elements of the sport fall under HSE's guidance, controls and the laws at their disposal. Its why you have to have a minimum level of PPE to play.

There is a whole raft of legislation that players do not seem aware of that controls the game or their actions in the following consequences for ignoring those legislative rules for public and personal safety.

I have suggested a legitimate fix to get around the issue, all I am doing is highlighting things that could potentially bit you for failing to do the simpler and better route of replacing the tone parts on the RIF because a "REPAIR" is not technically a modification if the parts are damaged as I understand, replacement tone parts is hard to come across, I have only seen one site and that is in the USA. (no I don't have a bookmark for it)

We have been discussing the painting of an IF into a RIF thus ‘modification’ under the VCRA - which has a maximum 51 week sentence if a crime is committed.

Modification by changing parts and increasing the power is a different matter.  I’ll get back to that in a minute 

The VCRA does not care if you can find coloured parts or not.  Change a coloured stock to a black stock and you have modified an IF to a RIF which may or may not be illegal based on section 37 defences.

You have the option to paint a black stock into an approved VCRA colour which would retain IF status 

You’ve complained about legal grey areas but keep proposing other grey areas.

Now back to increasing the power of an airsoft IF/RIF.  
Not long ago there was the legal quandary that an airsoft gun was a low power air weapon (firearm) and therefore was strictly speaking not an imitation.

If it’s a firearm then the VCRA does not apply and it does not matter what colour it is as it is neither an ‘Imitation Firearm’ or ‘Realistic Imitation Firearm’

(This may trigger another side conversation that an airgun looking like a real steel firearm is both a firearm and an imitation. I shall say it’s not because it’s a firearm, so can’t be an imitation)

This contradictory position was removed from the firearms act by adding the statement that a UK compliant airsoft gun within the specified power level and designed to fire plastic BBs is no longer a firearm in the firearms act and falls under VCRA criteria if either an IF or RIF

So what if you do modify an airsoft gun and increase its power? 
It won’t be legal for airsoft skirmishing

But it won’t be an illegal firearm 

Unless it’s power is vastly increased it would now be a low power air weapon

Thats a problem in Scotland now with the need for an air weapon certificate, but not in England.  It’s just an airgun 

I have an extensive armoury of low power air weapons which are both realistic and non realistic, but I use them to legally shoot people with UK approved frangible projectiles, and I also have the details from the Home Office stating that’s fine (with an addendum that if a court decided my realistic ones are RIFs then my UKPSF membership will be fine as the skirmisher defence - which certainly wouldn’t stand up in court to scrutiny, however since that statement was made the joules adjustment to legislation was made, and they exceed that power level so are clear of the VCRA and are compliant with approved testing of the frangible projectiles 

So I’m back with very legal firearms and no need for a firearms certificate 

By the way - the minimum level of PPE in airsoft is shite.  Eye protection that is currently permitted under the law is at the absolute minimum of impact protection, such as glasses with impact protection.  Only some airsoft eye protection is adequate to the risk, but as an adult players are permitted to take that personal risk by sites and their insurers.  For under 18s it’s recognised as inadequate and they are required to use full face protection (effectively by the insurance industry not being able to offset the sites liability to minors)

 

[Shamal]

We have been discussing the painting of an IF into a RIF thus ‘modification’ under the VCRA - which has a maximum 51 week sentence if a crime is committed.

Modification by changing parts and increasing the power is a different matter.  I’ll get back to that in a minute 

The VCRA does not care if you can find coloured parts or not.  Change a coloured stock to a black stock and you have modified an IF to a RIF which may or may not be illegal based on section 37 defences.

You have the option to paint a black stock into an approved VCRA colour which would retain IF status 

You’ve complained about legal grey areas but keep proposing other grey areas.

Now back to increasing the power of an airsoft IF/RIF.  
Not long ago there was the legal quandary that an airsoft gun was a low power air weapon (firearm) and therefore was strictly speaking not an imitation.

If it’s a firearm then the VCRA does not apply and it does not matter what colour it is as it is neither an ‘Imitation Firearm’ or ‘Realistic Imitation Firearm’

(This may trigger another side conversation that an airgun looking like a real steel firearm is both a firearm and an imitation. I shall say it’s not because it’s a firearm, so can’t be an imitation)

This contradictory position was removed from the firearms act by adding the statement that a UK compliant airsoft gun within the specified power level and designed to fire plastic BBs is no longer a firearm in the firearms act and falls under VCRA criteria if either an IF or RIF

So what if you do modify an airsoft gun and increase its power? 
It won’t be legal for airsoft skirmishing

But it won’t be an illegal firearm 

Unless it’s power is vastly increased it would now be a low power air weapon

Thats a problem in Scotland now with the need for an air weapon certificate, but not in England.  It’s just an airgun 

I have an extensive armoury of low power air weapons which are both realistic and non realistic, but I use them to legally shoot people with UK approved frangible projectiles, and I also have the details from the Home Office stating that’s fine (with an addendum that if a court decided my realistic ones are RIFs then my UKPSF membership will be fine as the skirmisher defence - which certainly wouldn’t stand up in court to scrutiny, however since that statement was made the joules adjustment to legislation was made, and they exceed that power level so are clear of the VCRA and are compliant with approved testing of the frangible projectiles 

So I’m back with very legal firearms and no need for a firearms certificate 

By the way - the minimum level of PPE in airsoft is shite.  Eye protection that is currently permitted under the law is at the absolute minimum of impact protection, such as glasses with impact protection.  Only some airsoft eye protection is adequate to the risk, but as an adult players are permitted to take that personal risk by sites and their insurers.  For under 18s it’s recognised as inadequate and they are required to use full face protection (effectively by the insurance industry not being able to offset the sites liability to minors)

And there endeth the first lesson.

Sorted! ?

Regards 

 

[Tommikka]

And there endeth the first lesson.

Sorted! ?

Regards 

Am I allowed to add a footnote that I’m legally allowed to recreationally shoot frangible projectiles at people with my firearms act low powered air weapons at over 16 joules - and still without a licence or certificate?

 

[Shamal]

Am I allowed to add a footnote that I’m legally allowed to recreationally shoot frangible projectiles at people with my firearms act low powered air weapons at over 16 joules - and still without a licence or certificate?

How so??

 

[Tommikka]

How so??

12 foot pound low power air weapon - paintball 

Unaffected by the airsoft joules reduction due to frangibility

 

[Shamal]

12 foot pound low power air weapon - paintball 

Paint what??

Moving swiftly on......lol

Regards 

 

[Rogerborg]

Am I allowed to add a footnote that I’m legally allowed to recreationally shoot frangible projectiles at people with my firearms act low powered air weapons at over 16 joules - and still without a licence or certificate?

You're very welcome to, but I doubt that it will make an iota of difference to our learned colleague's deeply felt feelings about what the law ought to say.

Honestly, I've just given up, if I wanted this level of informed and constructive debate I can get it on Twitter, Facebook, or yelling at tramps down the bus station.

 

[Tommikka]

Honestly, I've just given up, if I wanted this level of informed and constructive debate I can get it on Twitter, Facebook, or yelling at tramps down the bus station.

I’ve been missing my favourite local Facebook poster during his 30 day ban, he’s just got back and being relatively withdrawn.

We also no longer have a bus station in Salisbury and the car park homeless camp was shut down during novichok

Got to get the informed and constructive debate from somewhere 

 

[Tackle]

I’ve been missing my favourite local Facebook poster during his 30 day ban

Was it the former resident here ?, aka Bamf, he only ever lasts a couple of days at a time on fb lol

 

[Tommikka]

Was it the former resident here ?, aka Bamf, he only ever lasts a couple of days at a time on fb lol

I’m assuming not, but you never know with online nicknames