CQB training course

[SSPKali]

ITAS are all ex-bootnecks who play airsoft for fun and have developed their own methods to make a team more effective. Their training isn’t the cheapest but was good quality (been sent on courses of varying quality with work in the past!) and helped us work better as a unit. Youtube gives you a lot of the theory but you can’t beat someone watching you do it for the umpteenth time and give feedback!
 

It won’t turn you into a Tier 1 door kicker, but you and your mates will be slightly better than the usual headless-chicken players out there and might spend less time walking back to respawn.

 

[DrAlexanderTobacco]

What is ‘CQB training’ for?  Playing games is different to real life, a rapid run through often wins and when it doesn’t you just go back and respawn

Is the ‘instructor’ just going to teach and run through some drills, or are they going to teach the strategy behind those drills so that you can understand them and apply the right ones at the right time?

Additionally the abundant use of pyro might actually be the wrong way to do it Why are you going in?  
 

Do you want to kill/eliminate everyone you encounter?

Are there friendlies that may be coming in other doors?

Are you rescuing someone?

If you go too slow will the hostages get executed?

If you go too fast will the hostages get caught in the crossfire?

In real life - why are you bothering to do CQB when you could just bomb the place and drive tanks over the rubble?  
The answer today would be because of the innocent civilians, the answer in Stalingrad was that by destroying the city without immediately defeating the Russians inside it that the Germans created the perfect defences for the Russians to hide in

"What is CQB training for?"
 

For getting better, at CQB, in Airsoft.

"Is the ‘instructor’ just going to teach and run through some drills, or are they going to teach the strategy behind those drills so that you can understand them and apply the right ones at the right time?"

Some will do the first, some will do the second.

"Do you want to kill/eliminate everyone you encounter?"

Yes, because we're playing Airsoft.

This isn't rocket science. People want to get better, at what is probably one of the hardest parts of playing airsoft to do well.

From a walting point of view I don't think I'd actually care, I just want to source good training from people who are good at CQB in Airsoft. There are tonnes of courses out there, some will be shit, some will be good. Just like every course system in life. A lot of people in the thread are overthinking this.

 

[Tommikka]

"What is CQB training for?"
 

For getting better, at CQB, in Airsoft.

"Is the ‘instructor’ just going to teach and run through some drills, or are they going to teach the strategy behind those drills so that you can understand them and apply the right ones at the right time?"

Some will do the first, some will do the second.

"Do you want to kill/eliminate everyone you encounter?"

Yes, because we're playing Airsoft.

This isn't rocket science. People want to get better, at what is probably one of the hardest parts of playing airsoft to do well. The rest of what you've said is conjecture and doesn't apply to Airsoft.

From a walting point of view I don't think I'd actually care, I just want to source good training from people who are good at CQB in Airsoft. There are tonnes of courses out there, some will be shit, some will be good. Just like every course system in life. A lot of people in the thread are overthinking this.

That’s the thing. If it’s ‘eliminate everyone because it’s airsoft’ then 9/10 times the speedsofter will win.

If I’ve designed the mission as ‘rescue the VIP’ then the speedsofter will fail the entire mission in two seconds, and the defenders will have the advantage over gamers who think they can stack up in doorways.

The group who’ve prepared for rapid sacrificial CQB can draw out the defenders from their shadowy hiding spots and have one final player alive to bring out the VIP

The conjecture with nothing to do with airsoft is about understanding the tactics - knowing why they are what they are and how to apply them to situations

It’s also why there is a generation of ex soldiers with valid CQB experience.  CQB isn’t just the realm of special forces, it was the bread and butter of quite a few ‘ordinary’ infantry for a few years recently clearing compounds and buildings.

 

[DrAlexanderTobacco]

That’s the thing. If it’s ‘eliminate everyone because it’s airsoft’ then 9/10 times the speedsofter will win.

If I’ve designed the mission as ‘rescue the VIP’ then the speedsofter will fail the entire mission in two seconds, and the defenders will have the advantage over gamers who think they can stack up in doorways.

The group who’ve prepared for rapid sacrificial CQB can draw out the defenders from their shadowy hiding spots and have one final player alive to bring out the VIP

The conjecture with nothing to do with airsoft is about understanding the tactics - knowing why they are what they are and how to apply them to situations

It’s also why there is a generation of ex soldiers with valid CQB experience.  CQB isn’t just the realm of special forces, it was the bread and butter of quite a few ‘ordinary’ infantry for a few years recently clearing compounds and buildings.

Yea I edited out the conjecture bit because I didn't mean to have a go, but I guess you saw it - apols

In any case... All you're doing here, from my perspective, is building up excuses or imaginary situations for why this is a waste of time. You're not going to encounter speedsofters all the time, and certainly not at milsims or battlesims.

Point being, CQB training is beneficial for improved performance. You might encounter speedsofters, you might break your ankle trying to do an ultra tactical lean. Either way, it's good to build up skills if you want to play better.

E: Apologies to bookend with a potential strawman - but I'm trying to draw equivilancy here - to me, this would be saying something like "I would like to learn how to drive go-karts better, so I can do better at go-kart tracks." With the response "Ah, but you see, unfortunately there's a pro racer driving here today and you need to follow my special rules, too"

 

[Rogerborg]

A lot of people in the thread are overthinking this.

Well, the simplest way to git gud at room clearing is to John Wick in while shouting "You missed, you missed, I didn't feel it, gun hit, didn't feel it, missed."

My very mild concern about actually paying for training to play pretend soldiers with toys is that it might - might, not saying that it does - indicate a predilection for winning the game rather than playing the game.

I'm thinking of a couple of players I've met who took it all far too seriously, and ended up flouncing or being kicked out of the hobby.

All that said, I would be interested in doing such a training day, if only to see how well it really works in airsoft versus fearless rentals and pre-firing speedy bois.

 

[DrAlexanderTobacco]

indicate a predilection for winning the game rather than playing the game.

There's nothing wrong with this, at all. Competitiveness can align with sportsmanship, but I'm sorry to hear you've had a bad experience all the same.

 

[Rogerborg]

There's nothing wrong with this, at all. Competitiveness can align with sportsmanship, but I'm sorry to hear you've had a bad experience all the same.

Not bad for me, actually quite amusing.  Sad for them though, they never seemed happy, and not so funny for the young rental that one of them physically grabbed when he went off the deep end.

It's a tiny minority, not really a big deal, and I certainly don't mean to make a sweeping generalisation about folk who want to do training, I'm mildly curious myself.

 

[Tommikka]

In any case... All you're doing here, from my perspective, is building up excuses or imaginary situations for why this is a waste of time. You're not going to encounter speedsofters all the time, and certainly not at milsims or battlesims.

It doesn’t necessarily show in text but the intent of my posts was meant to be the opposite (valid strawman there of how you read them) on the basis that doing a CQB course could be:

1) Just a days out experience of doing doorkicking

Nothing wrong with that in itself but it won’t give number 2

(I’ve watched person number one go left scanning their zone and person number two going right scanning their zone with both of them getting shot by the defender in the middle - just blinkered going through the motions)

2) Learning  doorkicking & room clearing in context - why do this and that, and refined into gameplay situations - are you happy to sacrifice yourself for difficult clearance and quickly respawn or medic heal, or is it a major ballache to walk half a mile to the safe zone so you prefer a steady slow clearance

My questions were aimed at how to choose training / experiences and what an individual wants out of it

. You might encounter speedsofters, you might break your ankle trying to do an ultra tactical lean. Either way, it's good to build up skills if you want to play better.

The speedsofters have skills to offer too.

(Unless they have dressed up and are all the gear no idea running around in circles) then they are applying a tactic

In paintball I’ve done some competitive tournaments, fun on those occasions but not my kind of thing to pursue or to put in the commitment to keep it up.  However I still took part in training sessions to learn and relearn skills and to iron out bad habits from years in the woods.  

I’ve done a fair bit of doorkicking & CQB myself - run by training companies of ex soldiers, and also run some CQB sessions ourselves - close up, indoor & outdoor and in context of gameplay

 

[Joe142]

Well I didn’t expect the amount of replies that this thread has amassed but I appreciate all of your replies, people have made good points about both sides of the argument of training and not training but for me training is something that would benefit my play style, I’m more of a slow and steady at times and then full force room clearance kinda guy, and as I run a GBBR I don’t want to be running around fast boi style and fire 300 rounds at walls and barrels ?, I have to make my shots count and I feel the training would really benefit this and give some good insight on playing a better game for myself. 

 

[ImTriggerHappy]

Well I didn’t expect the amount of replies that this thread has amassed but I appreciate all of your replies, people have made good points about both sides of the argument of training and not training but for me training is something that would benefit my play style, I’m more of a slow and steady at times and then full force room clearance kinda guy, and as I run a GBBR I don’t want to be running around fast boi style and fire 300 rounds at walls and barrels ?, I have to make my shots count and I feel the training would really benefit this and give some good insight on playing a better game for myself. 

If you want to do the training because you will enjoy the experience then go ahead but if you expect it to improve your game you will just waste money to be honest. In my experience people who try the real world room clearance stuff are actually at a disadvantage as the steady controlled aspect does not suit airsoft at all. Real world stuff is based on the fact of tension and the fear of death or taking a life so they expect some hesitation.  But when facing 16yr olds hopped up on monster it becomes about reactions and you will get rinsed.

Airsoft room clearance and cqb is a war of attrition where it is about fast movement and faster reactions. Clearing a room is about going in fast probably dying but hoping to take someone with you and lessening the bodies in the room or even better just chucking grenades in. Without grenades a couple of good players can hold a room against overwhelming numbers for a very lengthy amount of time.

I have seen so many players and teams try the whole tactical bit and inevitably they get rinsed and generally get upset and most often are the biggest arses on site.

 

[Druid799]

If you want to do the training because you will enjoy the experience then go ahead but if you expect it to improve your game you will just waste money to be honest. In my experience people who try the real world room clearance stuff are actually at a disadvantage as the steady controlled aspect does not suit airsoft at all. Real world stuff is based on the fact of tension and the fear of death or taking a life so they expect some hesitation.  But when facing 16yr olds hopped up on monster it becomes about reactions and you will get rinsed.

i have seen so many players and teams try the whole tactical bit and inevitably they get rinsed and generally get upset and most often are the biggest arses on site.

Oh so spot on , if your playing a mil-sim or even film-sim game where everyone’s running low/real capacity magazines and actively managing there ammo then yes I could see pretty much any kind of professional training really helping your game , but not on a ‘normal’ walk on gameday . As trigger said when you’ve got adrenaline pumped players running around with a rental AK and a 600rd hi-cap hosing the crap out of anything AND everything they can see then tactics become bit of a moot point ? 
But yea I’m not saying don’t attended a training day by any stretch , all I’m saying is be prepared to need a very big pinch of salt to go with what your being told , and just enjoy it for what it is .

 

[Rogerborg]

I'm quite intrigued as to whether these training days teach "real world" tactics, or airsoft tactics.

Because real world tactics (I've watched a lot of them in Hollywood movies) mean a SWAT team bursting into a den of crashed out junkies at 3am, or a Delta Beret team bursting into a compound full of women and younglings... at 3am.

That's a bit different from two teams of essentially equal players all hopped up and tickling their triggers.

Absent grenades, airsoft "door kicking" means shoving some fat bloke in a plate carrier into the room to see where he gets murdered from, and then shooting the shirt out of that area.  I'm not sure that "Sacrifice Porkins!" is part of any real world doctrine.

However, we live to learn, and I'd be interested to know if anyone is teaching something better than that, that actually works in a game of pretend soldiers.

 

[pedro]

i helped organise a training day a long time ago for 25-30 people . we split them into 2 groups and in the morning for a couple of hours one group practiced basic accuracy, double taps, transitions and walking and firing whilst the second lot leant the 1,2,3,4  entry using grenades. we swapped them over after lunch until the last hour when we put them into 4 man teams and put them against the instructors in some exercises to practice what they learned.

feedback was positive with them accepting that not all that they had been practicing would be useful for all airsoft games but they had all learned something beneficial and had all the basic information on how to get a better cqb team up and running if they wanted.

they had all got to practice deploying grenades using teamwork/timing which you dont really get to do anywhere else except in live games, which isnt the best learning environment

the instructors were quite colourful characters so just spending a day with experienced shooters giving you tips + plenty of banter was worth the asking price imo

cant remember exactly how much we charged them but it was similar to what a days game would have cost and that just covered the cost of the site and the 2 main instructors, we had a few others helping that weren't paid.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

CQB training? Watch Aliens. Plenty of lessons there, good and bad. Remember, short, controlled bursts...

/Thread

 

[Jacob Wright]

If you’re still interested and/or local, I’ve just seen that ‘Spartan Survival’ are running some kind of course at Humber Airsoft on the 27th of November for £50. 
 

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[truckinthumper]

Training?

The sport / game is for all abilities, so given that many ex-military guys and girls attend airsoft, possibly the best way to learn new skills is if you pay attention to how they play.

Keep an eye open for youtube video bloggers who are ex-military in the airsoft community. They will likely have plenty of material that you can absorb information to give you more scope in game play.

I know this is an old topic, but as I new guy I am reading whatever. LOL 

I can call out 8 out of 10 bullshit artist just by their pistol grip. 
There are a few airsofters that claim to be ex-mil that do some n00b crossing thumbs grip. 

I am friends with a few ex-mil that know their stuff and have taken heed to their lessons. 

 

 

[Tackle]

I know this is an old topic, but as I new guy I am reading whatever. LOL 

I can call out 8 out of 10 bullshit artist just by their pistol grip. 
There are a few airsofters that claim to be ex-mil that do some n00b crossing thumbs grip. 

I am friends with a few ex-mil that know their stuff and have taken heed to their lessons. 

 

You need to bear in mind that for many soldiers access to pistols was very limited in the past, usually amounting to a couple of mags a year on ranges with very little corrective training, just enough to pick up, operate, & safely clear a weapon if it became necessary, obviously it was a very different story when it came to a soldiers primary weapon, usually a battle/assault rifle ?. 

I say this as former British army, obviously I can't comment on whether the same situation applied in the USA or elsewhere for that matter, but I don't think we're in a position to scream "stolen valour" or whatever the term is just because someone's handgrip is wrong on his toy pistol. 

For example when I started playing, 20+ years ago I was an airsoft god, seriously, well trained, with shit hot drills combined with high fitness levels meant I was a force to be reckoned with. 

But now, numerous skeletal injuries (wrecked back from rta's, both knees need replacing, a toe missing on my dominant foot, a finger on each hand sewn back on) & other health problems, which has led to "middle age spread" that I'd previously kept at bay with a hard exercise regime, no longer possible, means when I do get out to play, if I'm not dosed up with corto-steroid jabs, hinged braces & pain meds, I'm a shambling shadow of my former self, & have had to drastically alter my playing style to get through the day without suffering new injuries or aggravating the old ones. 

But I still do OK, & usually have a good tally of "kills", so all I'm saying is don't be too quick to judge players, especially those older guys, just because they're a bit slack in their style of play. 

And breathe?

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[truckinthumper]

Stolen Valor and POGs are not the same. 
I am not a Vet, or any prior service, although some say a BRAT almost qualifies. 
Sadly my ears are defective so I could not serve. I did however spend the first 30 years of my life as a military kid (BRAT), working on bases and working with many M.O.S.. 
I also grew up with an infatuation with guns and shooting, so I got a LOT of good solid instruction, along with some pretty shitty instruction too. 
It was not until I started playing real steal games I learned the proper basics of any and all firearms. There is a LOT of "do what works" out there, but the one common denominator is the root basics. It cannot be dismissed. 
If you see crossed thumbs on a pistol grip, they never served in a fighting MOS. If you see the chicken wing rifle grip, same thing. 
Never seen anyone who actually was a warrior do that. 
It is not just a US thing, it is the "common law" of all warriors. 
Just a word of advice when seeking to pay someone who states "Ex Soldier" for firearms training. 

If you want to pay someone to teach you how to play airsoft, all of this does not apply.
If you want to pay someone for basic instructions, this also does not apply.
    

 

[Enid_Puceflange]

As has been mentioned earlier in the thread, I think a few folk are over thinking this. 
I personally would get a few things out of some sort of training course

1: enjoyment of playing with my toy gnu (or a RS training weapon)

2: the possibility of me being a couple of percent more confident with my toy gnu handling abilities

3: a day out the house playing with my toy gnu

4: the company of likeminded adult children who like playing with toy gnu’s

Its a silly game we play, but being slightly better at it tomorrow than I am today would enhance my enjoyment of the game

 

[Tackle]

To be fair the the "cqb training courses" threads pop up every couple of years, some by wannabe students, & some by claimed "professionals", & I've yet to see one iota of feedback that anything ever actually took place.......