What sniper to buy? SnippaaWiffaaa

[Sacarathe]

Now I know, if you upgrade the gun so much, it could reach high ranges of FPS such as 450 fps with .2g, well, you could then just step the weight up to .3 and hopefully you should come closer to the site's maximum speed.

So, you're not ignorant, just you don't read what people say, read my previous post again, you cannot just use heavier ammunition like that.

The FPS is just a way of observing muzzle force. Taking an FPS reading and not caring about BB weight is the height of fallacy - one reason I'm not going to bunker 51 ever again.

Also, increasing the accuracy and pain (lol). I hope this idea works out. If this is a bad idea please say, and if there is anything to be wary of, please note me on it! (I haven't gone to depth on the idea) thanks.

Why would you want to cause more pain? :S

FYI, airsoft guns fall into three power brackets, usually defined (at 0.2g BB) as "automatic 328-350 FPS and below", "Semi only 15-30m MED 350-425(sometimes 450) FPS" and "bolt action 30m MED 425-500 FPS".

So really, unless you're planning to cheat to play in a different bracket, forget about causing more pain on other people.

 

[Jedi_Master]

I do not think that you have actually thought any of this through, or done any searching on the forum for previous threads or information.

A sniper rifle is a specific and specialist weapon platform. A semi-auto Dedicated Marksman Rifle (DMR) has a different role. The increased fps limits of these guns incur a Minimum Engagement Distance (MED) for a simple reason, safety.

Site fps limits are the maximum limit for weapon types, all based on 0.20g BB. You do not load heavier BB into your magazine at chrono to lower your fps to the site limit, that is called using a 'Hot Gun' and is against the ethics of airsoft sportsmanship (we are not here to cheat, and we take our hits) and would break the site fps rules. As for causing more pain, playing CQB with 0.20g at close range can really hurt, break the skin, cause welts, split lips, etc. So deliberately loading heavy BBs just for shits and giggles (lol) and trying to use a hot gun is both irresponsible and potentially dangerous.

 

[Mos]

Pain was a joke .-. Maybe I'll quit the jokes I understand that if you fire a 0.2g bb out your gun and it's speed was 450fps. If you then fire a 0.3g bb out your gun it will not fire at 450 fps. It's speed will decrease. I completely understand that. No doubts. If I was to make this m4 a beast, and say it could fire 0.3g bbs at 340 which is site legal for assault rifles. Is this disallowed due to the weight being heavy. And I understand if I used .2 bbs at 450 fps, I'd have to use as a DMR with whatever minimum combat engagement range.

EDIT Just read your post, and I understand now. What a hot gun is. I guess DMR is the only option. (Also I completely support the airsoft game, and do not agree with cheating, nor do I agree with inflicting pain on others)

 

[Sacarathe]

If I was to make this m4 a beast, and say it could fire 0.3g bbs at 340 which is site legal for assault rifles. Is this disallowed due to the weight being heavy.

No, it is disallowed for another reason, already stated (twice).

EDIT Just read your post, and I understand now. What a hot gun is. I guess DMR is the only option. (Also I completely support the airsoft game, and do not agree with cheating, nor do I agree with inflicting pain on others)

You mean re-read right? Also my objection was to "inflicting increased pain" not inflicting pain.

 

[TacMaster]

Do you not understand any of this?

If you have an AEG which fires 0.20g at 450 FPS, then simply loading 0.30g or heavier BBs into it will not make it 'site legal'. It just simply means you're cheating the chrono.

Buy yourself a CYMA or G&G M14, stick a tightbore and/or an M120 spring in it and have it locked to semi automatic. That's a cheap and easy DMR which can be improved upon later.

 

[Mos]

Jeez guys, no need to be so harsh...I'm knew to airsoft, and I enjoy the game and I would like to learn about it. But, sorry for being dumb.. Maybe I'm just not right. Anyways, thanks for bothering to reply. Sorry.

 

[proffrink]

We've all been there man, but If you're new to airsoft you really need to take it slow and do your research - is that not the vibe you've been getting from this thread? Upgrading is sometimes expensive, requires knowledge and a lot of patience to do right.

'Learning' in the case of airsoft usually means just reading through forum stuff. Think of something cool, then go and research it to see if anyone else has done it. In the case of an M4 'DMR' - it's been done a million times and isn't just a case of slapping a £40 scope onto an existing gun, but requires a lot of fine tuning and effort to get right. Do it now - when you clearly don't even know the difference between speed (i.e. FPS) and energy (i.e. Joules) and you're poorly equipped and just set up for failure.

It's really tempting to dive right in, but by god have I seen it go badly so many times. You need only look at some of the monstrosities people are selling on Facebook to see those who haven't done their due diligence first.

There are plenty of guns out there - like the M14 TacMaster is on about - that requires little effort to turn into something that'll go further than your average. Just be aware that the DMR rules at Ravens might not be what you're after. In fact, I always kept my DMR to under 350fps and it's such a small site that I imagine they don't have a rule for semi-only stuff. Also, they don't crono there much so you need to be doubly-careful that you're within site limits because it's the only local in the Ipswich area and is mostly built on trust from regulars.

 

[proffrink]

Double post because different subject, but I will explain this for maybe the 3rd time this month (and I'm pretty sure you've posted in other threads I've explained this).

Energy is not the same as speed.

When a site wants to crono your gun, what they're really looking at is muzzle energy (or muzzle 'velocity' as some people call it), but they keep it to FPS so as to not confuse people. Frankly, I think it confuses more people because then someone like yourself can quite innocently think that using a higher weight to slow down the BB is fine. It isn't, and in fact when people say 'cheating the crono' then this is the primary tactic they're referring to - disguising heavier weight BBs as lighter ones (either through just saying they're .20g when they're not, or putting them in a .20g bottle).

The best way to picture it for the future is that a crono is only done with .20g BBs (again I think this is something that's stupid due to Joule creep but that's a subject for another time). If you're over 350 or 335 (or whatever the site limit is) with .20s then that's bad. You cannot use heavier BBs to decrease the speed at which they travel because the muzzle energy remains the same.

An extreme example is that getting hit with a 185 ton train going 350fps is going to hurt a lot more than a .20g BB going at 350fps, but by your logic these would feel the same.

Energy is measured in Joules here, and 350fps with a .20g BB equates to about 1.14J - with a .30g BB this same speed 350fps is 1.71J; a lot more energy so it's going to hurt more.

1.14J with a .30g BB is 270fps however, and so that's what you need to crono at with a .30g BB.

Here's a chart to help:

The reason people use heavier BBs is they lose that energy a lot slower as they travel through the air and so don't drop off quite as quickly but the trade off is that you need a better hop as the BB requires more backspin to stay in a flatter trajectory for longer (which can mean you need modifications to your gun).

 

[Jedi_Master]

I appreciate that you are only 14 years old, hence the gentle responses and less sarcasm than usual. However, you really need to think about what you are asking. Members here are answering your questions and offering help so will get frustrated when it appears that you are just not paying any attention and their advice is ignored. Use the search function, read old threads, make some effort to research before just jumping in.

 

[Mos]

Yeah, I'll research more, as I agree with you that I am taking a gamble at everything. Last game I played (last Saturday) was at gunman tuddenham, brilliant site, great marshals, fixed a problem with my gun's trigger jamming, due to I think the gears not tight enough (something like that) I understand buying a gun that is meant to be a DMR is better, but, I don't particularly want to invest in another stock weapon. Also just to clear up about this pain business, one point in the game, I was near someone not seen, and I walked up to him and said surrender, I could've shot him. But, I really am not about pain and all..

EDIT: Thanks prof, that image helped me understand. It makes sense, if I was to shoot someone with a bb that weighed a ton (example, not possible) it would hurt a lot, but with a 0.2g it doesn't hurt. At the game on Saturday, there was this sniper, he had about 450 FPS on his weapon, and I think was using 0.4s so his FPS was lower with 0.4s was lower, and he was told he could only engage at 20meters minimum, can't be closer. Which makes sense, shooting someone with a 0.4g bb @360 FPS or so from 5 meters would hurt a lot. I guess if I took the crono, and I used 0.3g bbs and got a reading of 350 FPS, I'd be told only to engage at minimum 20 meters. This would be fine. As the point was to make the m4 into more of a DMR.

 

[proffrink]

If you don't have the money for something new then the probability is that you don't have the money for upgrading either. Again, it can get expensive (not always, but it can). Shimming and fiddling with AoE are also not the most straightforward things to do if you're just starting out. There are loads of Youtube videos though so don't let this discourage you.

 

[Sacarathe]

EDIT: Thanks prof, that image helped me understand. It makes sense, if I was to shoot someone with a bb that weighed a ton (example, not possible) it would hurt a lot, but with a 0.2g it doesn't hurt. At the game on Saturday, there was this sniper, he had about 450 FPS on his weapon, and I think was using 0.4s so his FPS was lower with 0.4s was lower, and he was told he could only engage at 20meters minimum, can't be closer. Which makes sense, shooting someone with a 0.4g bb @360 FPS or so from 5 meters would hurt a lot. I guess if I took the crono, and I used 0.3g bbs and got a reading of 350 FPS, I'd be told only to engage at minimum 20 meters. This would be fine. As the point was to make the m4 into more of a DMR.

NO, you still don't get it, you're not there yet.

At a well run site you will never get chrono'd on heavier ammunition than .20g (unless you specificity asked to afterwards for your own interests).

The only way to get consistent results is to test everyone with the same weight, yes there will always be fluctuations - and by that I mean two guns which both are rated 450 FPS with 0.20g may fire at 340 and 380 with another weight (lets say .28g). The reason I mention this is if YOU chrono with 0.30g your gun is not being tested against any meaningful scale.

I suggest you re read this entire thread, read the link above (which I also Pm'd) which proffink borrowed the table from, find the wikipedia article on the subject, do some actual research.

Then and only then come back and explain it to us in your own words. You're looking for the relationship between Force, Mass, and Velocity where mass is the control.

 

[proffrink]

Yeh, you still don't get the difference between the speed the BB is travelling at and the energy it has. Hey ho, you'll get it at some point.

I'd put the example in reverse and say that a .20g BB travelling 99.9% the speed of light is going to have the energy of a couple of rather large hydrogen bombs, but a 1 ton BB travelling at 5fps is not.

Please research this further: http://www.airsoftmaster.com/fps-chart-for-airsoft-guns/

 

[Mos]

It seems to me, technically, the limit should be in joules? If a sites limit is 328 FPS (0.2g bbs) then, the joule limit is 1.00. Therefore, if to use 0.25g bbs in game, the FPS will be lower BUT whatever FPS you use, It has to be under or on 1.00 joules. And based on that chart - if you used 0.25g bbs, the limit you could use, would be 290 FPS as that is 0.98 joules, which is under the limit of 1 joule for that site. Ladies and gentlemen, I may have hit bullseye.

 

[proffrink]

I addressed that 6 posts ago already. That's kind of the entire point of every post on this page. At least you've finally got it

The site limit everywhere is already done in Joules. They just do it as 350fps (or 335) on 0.20g BBs because this is meant to be easier for people to understand. A hard Joule limit is universal, and that's why it should be used more often in my opinion as it stops Joule creep and means people can use whatever weight they like to crono with.

The issue is that means site managers need a basic understanding of the way it works (most do already) and a calculator (or just a conversion chart). Also players need to put some effort in, but when we're still grappling with the age old 'FPS = range' conundrum when it comes to new players, I think it'd be too much to ask them to learn some GSCE physics too in some cases.

Site limits are either ~1J or just over (335fps) or ~1.15J (350fps). Obviously there are significant margins here because not every batch of the same gun cronos identically out of the box, and not every cronograph is the same.

 

[Mos]

Ah right, THANK GOD! Haha. To me, a 14 year old, I have a basic understanding of it, and I'm 14... People should be able to get to grips with it... But anyways.. The only thing, which is good for people who own snipers is that they have powerful guns, which breach that limit, but they have a rule, of 20 meter minimum engagement. But their guns have to be like designated DMRs or snipers.

 

[Sacarathe]

designated DMRs

/like

 

[Mos]

LOL, i am so stupid, I was trying to say, that it was clear that the gun was a single shot type gun, sniper etc

 

[ronin677]

You could buy an A&K SVD and stick a new spring in it, upgrade the sear, replace the hop up with one from Airsoft Pro, and finally replace the inner barrel with a tight bore. This would give you a springer firing at about 450-500 fps and a range of approx 80m.

either that or a TM VSR as these are easily upgraded

 

[ronin677]

Here's my A&K. Sweet ain't she