TAG innovation adaptation.

[Chock]

Well. I suppose the site could specify that you have to wear a helmet and full face protection (which I already do anyway). Yeah it gets a bit warm in that gear, but I know people are throwing grenades about, which is why I keep my PASGT helmet and mesh lower mask on when in the fire zone. I've seen too many people get teeth shot out and big cuts on their head to not wear that kind of protection, and I guess it would work for these kind of frags too.

 

[Lozart]

Well. I suppose the site could specify that you have to wear a helmet and full face protection (which I already do anyway). Yeah it gets a bit warm in that gear, but I know people are throwing grenades about, which is why I keep my PASGT helmet and mesh lower mask on when in the fire zone. I've seen too many people get teeth shot out and big cuts on their head to not wear that kind of protection, and I guess it would work for these kind of frags too.

I'd rather they stick with the useage rules they have (single level only, no higher than knee height unless posting around a doorway). A cheap plastic helmet won't give you much protection against a fist sized lump of metal.

 

[Chock]

True, but then again, no helmet at all won't give me any protection at all!

 

[Ian_Gere]

Well there we are then - no sites i've been to allow people to throw BFG's over shoulder height or drop them on people from above - this bloke broke the rules and someone got hurt - not surprising as airsoft is an adventure sport. Two lessons to take from that: 1) the rules really do have good reasons behind them, and 2) stupidity is an ever present danger so you had best take your own personal protection seriously.

If someone had fired a gun in the safe zone and taken someone's eye out, what would we be saying? That's against the rules too. Personally I get pretty irate with anyone who points a gun at me in the safe zone, let alone dry firing, regardless of the rules, whether that site's safety briefing has said no shouldering as well as no dry firing, and whether they have no mag in, etc and I'm pretty unhappy when sites do not have marshals check that players returning to the safe zone have de-mag'd and cleared their chambers, because then i feel unsafe removing my eyepro at all.

I would expect sites which allow TAGs to say that players should not aim them at people, in the same way that they often say that pyros should not be thrown at people, but I'd feel a lot safer being hit by a TAG than a BFG. We all know however that when we throw a pyro into a room, for eg, we do not know for sure that it will not hit someone, so conversely when we are defending in cover which obscures our exact position, it's possible that a thrown pyro will hit us without the thrower being in any way malicious or dickheadscious. I don't usually wear a helmet, but I accept that I should and if I do ever get sparked out by some penis behaving irresponsibly, I will not blame the site, or the sport...

 

[Baz JJ]

Ive now watched lots of videos of TAG products. The pyro based rounds, the Reaper and Archangel are flashbang rounds. Ive seen them fired in a CQB situation where they burnt the carpet in the room and made the Tango's ears ring.

Rolling that low towards the enemy is one thing - you can see largely where people are and not get too close. We restrict the size of those bangs in our games to MK5s to protect ears etc.

If you fire an Archangel 80m, you have no idea where it will land. It could land dangerously close to a player. If they only have eye pro on, it presents a risk. The round is very light and its impact is low at that range - its more the uncontrollable flash bang. Ive been told its a mk5 equivalent (120dB @ 1m) although it sounds worse on the videos.

Unless players wear full face, gloves, long sleeves and ear pro, I cant see how it can be done with any degree of guaranteed safety.

 

[Ian_Gere]

I don't believe it's the promoter's responsibility to guarantee safety. Nobody ever says, "Shooting glasses are not designed for airsoft - you cannot play here if that is your only eyepro." They also don't say, "Trainers are not suitable footwear - you cannot play here unless you wear boots." Most sites do require u16's to wear full face protection, but they do not tell adults, "BB's take teeth out - you cannot take that risk." They say, "We recommend..."

Personally, knowing how thrown MK5's spin end over end and bounce off anything they hit in a totally random way, I expect that I would be able to place a TAG shot more accurately.

 

[Baz JJ]

Debatable. I think organisers have a duty of care to take reasonable precautions.

If, as we do, you have a rule that:

Pyro’s must not be thrown at a live target.

ANY heavy cased pyro’s must be under arm rolled or dropped ONLY!

BB Claymore and powder mines must not be set up to hit above 3ft from the ground.

it would be wrong to allow what are effectively airborne MK5s which are dropped on to target.

At 80m and with single rounds, you cant be that accurate.

 

[Ian_Gere]

Actually that sounded worse than i intended, above. What i mean is that it is the responsibility of the promoter/organiser to guarantee safety from being wounded by expected hazards, but not safety from small hurts, such as being singed by pyros, cut/grazed by rough terrain, shot in painful places, etc.

I don't see what is different about a thrown MK5 potentially landing on your head and going off and a TAG round hitting you and going off.

 

[Baz JJ]

I agree. Its largely the same in effect.

With a hand thrown pyro, you can see the 15-20m that you are throwing and ensure as best you can that a live target is not in the way.

If you fire a grenade launcher on a arc in the direction of a camp or defence 60+m away, you really have no idea where it will land. Trajectory and the influence of crosswinds could put that Reaper or Archangel on somebody's head. The latter explodes on impact.

I don't see what is different about a thrown MK5 potentially landing on your head and going off and a TAG round hitting you and going off.

 

[Ian_Gere]

Yeah but a TAG is surrounded by soft foam, whereas a MK5 exploding on your head could be the exact thin bit of cardboard which disintegrates in the bang right next to your skin, so although it may be a little more likely to happen, a Tag would hurt a lot less. Either way though, it would just sting and may blister. For the fun factor, that is a risk worth taking imo.

 

[Baz JJ]

We are going to try the training rounds for taking vehicles out in our next game.

If they ever launch the smoke product here, which is unlikely as they tell me its puts out very little smoke and will cost a lot of money to get through CE approval, then we will use that for assaults on defended positions.

 

[Lowlander]

we run the rule that you must always be able to see where you are throwing an exploding pyro so treated like blind firing. (smoke are a different case) and always underarm, when TAGs are used on site you must fire it like a grenade and not like a mortar, and having been in one of our huts when one came through the window i would say simmilar if not a little less unpleasent than a Mk5 or EG field Grenade.

 

[Baz JJ]

Airsoft World themselves say at their ganes (The Fort?) that TAG firers have to be more than 60m away from the intended target.

 

[PT247]

The TAG grenades are a long range grenade, they should not be intentionally fired at an individual, they are also very accurate (considering most launchers don't have sights). I'll be posting a vid of me getting shot well within that 60m range mentioned soon as I want folk on the site I play at to know I'd take one at far closer distance than they would ever be fired in a skirmish and a mate has said they'll film it for me.

 

[Baz JJ]

Id like to see that. We were asked to look into TAG by one of our players, so we have and made a preliminary decision after some discussion amongst the group which took into account organiser liability and what players were willing to sign up to.

Its always difficult without first hand experience of the product itself.

We will continue to evaluate TAG going forward, so are always interested in video evidence etc.

We hope to learn a lot by using the training rounds at the next game if the interested player (s) decide to stump up the financial commitment and use them

 

[PT247]

sorry the vid is so short. This is at around 10m range, powered with CO2:

I'll not lie, it did sting but no more really than a paintball does at close range. These are not to be used in this way, it is just a demonstration to show the effect on a person at close range. When firing they should not be aimed at a person and you should warn folk you are about to fire. Our site these and shower grenades we have to shout RPG, for flashbangs and smoke we shout grenade before we fire/throw.

These with CO2 will easily travel 100m and be accurate enough to take bunkers out from long range. I love them and even the folk who got killed by them seemed to love them too.... I'm expecting to not be the only person using them at my local site before too long. A journalist from Airsoft Action magazine was very intrigued with them too on Sunday, Next time he comes to the site I will see if he wants to use a couple in a skirmish.

 

[Baz JJ]

Which TAG product was that, a Reaper ?

 

[PT247]

Yes mate. I have some of the Archangels too. I prefer the Reapers though.

 

[PT247]

Just for info.....

Have a big flippin crack in my S-Thunder shorty poly launcher, it don't appear to be man enough for the CO2. If buying one, buy metal!

 

[PT247]

(which sucks, poly would have got a cracker had it been strong enough!)