Some Advice For a New Player Please

[Mackrel829]

I attended my first Airsoft skirmish today and found it pretty enjoyable! I rented the gear, which seemed to be pretty sub-par and inhibited my enjoyment somewhat, but I think it could be something that I could get into. Before I go spending money that I shouldn't on gear, I thought I better ask a few questions and get some advice.

I mostly want to know at this stage what type of gun should I be looking for. I found long engagements more enjoyable than close quarters. I liked taking a different path from the rest of the team, finding some cover and engaging from a distance.

Should I be looking to get a bolt action sniper rifle of some kind? It seems that many of these are weak out of the box. Or should I get a DMR? I'm not sure if these come ready built or if you have to modify a regular rifle to make it a DMR. Or are most simple assault rifles capable of what I'm after on semi auto?

Also, I wouldn't want to spend much more than £250 since it would be my first gun and I'd still be working out whether Airsoft is something I want to commit a lot of time and money to. Is it better to get a gun in the £250 range or get a cheaper gun and spend the difference on upgrades?

Basically, what would be the best way to get into Airsoft for about £250? I think I'd just like something that shoots far and straight and I don't really care what that is. 

(Note: if a good long range weapon isn't really viable for £250, I'd also be happy to take recommendations for good regular assault rifles. I love AUGs but it seems like they have a lot of issues?)

Thanks in advance!

 

[Impulse]

Long range airsoft! My favourite topic! Apologies in advance for wall o'text...

I will start by saying that getting a bolt action as a first gun is generally a bad idea. It can work out and it did for me way back when I started with my Warrior L96 (now known as Well), but it's a very different style of playing. That said, if you have already played once and liked going off by yourself and taking long shots, I wouldn't immediately rule it out or at least not entirely. £250 is a pretty tight budget, but not impossible to work with, no matter how many people say "sniping is expensive". If it were me, I would go one of two routes:

Cyma m14:
They're £150 and don't need any gearbox modifications out of the box. Spend £30 on a ZCI 499mm stainless steel barrel, £10 on a Maple Leaf macaron hop rubber (60 or 70 degree is my preference) and £5 on a Maple Leaf omega nub and that's just shy of £200; spend the other £50 on more mags, or just run the high cap it comes with and use the £50 elsewhere, like on a scope and scope mount. I ran mine like this on .32g BBs for a long, long time and people with poorly tuned bolt action rifles (lots of players...) were having a tough time as I could effectively counter-snipe them despite only being 1J. I used it on semi-auto most of the time, but retained the use of full auto if I needed it and had no MED so I could also engage other players up close. In my opinion, if you're looking at getting into sniping, this is what I'd do first until you've learned the game a bit more and are better at judging distance, how environmental factors will affect BB trajectory etc. Also, it'll make a fantastic backup rifle for if you do get into sniping later down the line and you're having issues with your bolt action.

Cyma cm701B / JG BAR-10:
They're £120ish and I would run it at stock power until it eventually breaks (or you save up the considerable amount needed to upgrade the power). Spend about £50 on a Laylax 430mm stainless steel tightbore or a Maple Leaf Crazy Jet barrel, £50 on the Action Army hop up unit, £10 on a Maple Leaf autobot rubber (70+ degree) and £5 on a Maple Leaf omega nub. That's about £235, so not much room for much else and you will probably want an extra mag or two (they're £10 each) and you almost certainly want a scope. As a bolt action at 420fps (about 1.6J), you'll have an MED to contend with and it won't perform as well as it can as an extra 0.7J to bring it up to 2.3J will make a difference, but it'll be a bit quieter than the m14, though the m14 is very quiet for an AEG so it's not as big a deal as you may think. Upgrading the power you'll be looking at a LOT more investment to get it up to that 2.3J mark, but this build will not perform poorly (or at least, it shouldn't!). Another downside is that here you will want to be running as heavy as you can (so ideally .45g or .48g BBs) which is also pretty damn expensive, and because you'll have an MED you'll really want a reliable pistol so you'd be shelling out £150 for a TM, or £90 for an AAP-01 that will eventually explode and require a decent investment to fit the stronger aftermarket parts.

Honestly, I'd go with the m14 as a first gun if you're looking to get into the long range game and then save up for a bolt action of your choice when you're more experienced, already have a pistol and have saved up a decent amount to do a good build; I'd probably want at least £500 to do a proper bolt action rifle build. You can play as a "sniper" with any gun, to be honest, and most people these days like to run ghillie suits and some variant of HPA m4 instead of a bolt action because they're a lot more versatile with having no MED and retaining full auto while still being mouse fart levels of silence.

In terms of other good regular AEG assault rifles, I'll also wholly endorse the Cyma AKs and mp5s. I have a Cyma mp5k where all I've changed is the hop rubber and nub and it's now slinging .32s to a silly range and makes a nice little full-auto secondary for when I'm running one of my bolt actions. Outside of that, I don't have much experience with AEGs so I will defer to someone else on that as I am more of a gas gun aficionado. Only AEGs I own are a Cyma m14, SR-25 and mp5k, as well as a TM MP7 (but that's an AEP really...). I like Cyma AEGs 

 

[Mackrel829]

Thanks for such a detailed response!

Is this the M14 you're referring to?

https://www.patrolbase.co.uk/cyma-cm-032-m14-rifle

I've also seen that G&G CM16 Combat Machines are pretty highly regarded for new players. Would this be similar to the M14 in terms of range?

 

[MrTea]

I have a Cyma mp5k where all I've changed is the hop rubber and nub and it's now slinging .32s to a silly range

Interesting. Does your field have BB weight limits for full auto guns as one of mine does. They'll only allow you to use 0.28g BBs on full auto guns as maximum. Not entirely sure why as you're still limited to 1.13joule but heyho.

Thanks for the longer post, it's always good to get some extra info from knowledgeable people. Cannot wait to get my G&G MP5 back from the tech who started working on it today.

 

[Impulse]

Thanks for such a detailed response!

Is this the M14 you're referring to?

https://www.patrolbase.co.uk/cyma-cm-032-m14-rifle

I've also seen that G&G CM16 Combat Machines are pretty highly regarded for new players. Would this be similar to the M14 in terms of range?

That's the one; I have it in faux wood for Namsoft! In terms of similarities on range, I can't say for certain because I've never owned a G&G CM16 before.

Interesting. Does your field have BB weight limits for full auto guns as one of mine does. They'll only allow you to use 0.28g BBs on full auto guns as maximum. Not entirely sure why as you're still limited to 1.13joule but heyho.

Thanks for the longer post, it's always good to get some extra info from knowledgeable people. Cannot wait to get my G&G MP5 back from the tech who started working on it today.

Nope, no limits on BB weight though we are a woodland site; I've had weight limits at CQB events and sites, but I've never seen BB weight limits in woodland. In theory you could run .48s through a support gun if you want to make questionable financial decisions ?

Generally most players at my local site go with .25s or .28s anyway, I just build all of my 1.1J guns, pistols included, to use .32s so I don't have to faff with BB weights too much (mp7 is the only one that takes lighter ammo because it's an AEP). I don't run my mp5k often as I prefer my mp9, which I tend to fire on semi anyway because gas gun cooldown on full auto is real and by the end of the mag the BBs are trickling out of the barrel! 

 

[Mackrel829]

That's the one; I have it in faux wood for Namsoft! In terms of similarities on range, I can't say for certain because I've never owned a G&G CM16 before.

I can get everything you recommended plus a scope and a strap for £255 on Patrol Base. 

The only thing is that they don't have the barrel you referred to, but you can get a MADBULL Python Ver. 2 for the same price - 499mm, 6.03, aluminium. I assume this would be almost identical?

Also, I assume those upgraded parts would improve the accuracy? Would they make a big difference? 

 

[Impulse]

I can get everything you recommended plus a scope and a strap for £255 on Patrol Base. 

The only thing is that they don't have the barrel you referred to, but you can get a MADBULL Python Ver. 2 for the same price - 499mm, 6.03, aluminium. I assume this would be almost identical?

Also, I assume those upgraded parts would improve the accuracy? Would they make a big difference? 

The barrel probably isn't. M14s have a weird hop unit so only certain barrels will fit because of the way barrels are cut. ZCI have both m14 and standard AEG cuts, but otherwise you probably would need something that specifically states it's an m14 barrel. Barrel isn't the end of the world, the important parts for consistency, range and accuracy are the hop rubber and nub; can just run it with the standard barrel for now. Also, AK2M4 does ZCI barrels and is where I got mine, but he's not taking orders at the moment because of the royal mail strikes.

Also, for a scope you need a scope mount. Just in case you didn't already incorporate it:

https://www.patrolbase.co.uk/cyma-m14-m1a-scope-mount

Out of stock, but can probably find one elsewhere. The Tokyo Marui one will also fit as Cyma are Tokyo Marui clones

 

[Rogerborg]

Apologies in advance for wall o'text...

View attachment 99714

tl;dr version: if you decide to go down the bolt action route, just buy a Silverback TAC-41, or SRS.  They look expensive, but it's cheaper than finding out that trying to spend less means that you'll end up spending more.

Also, ahoy and welcome to the wonderful world of airsoft "upgrading".  

 

[Mackrel829]

The barrel probably isn't. M14s have a weird hop unit so only certain barrels will fit because of the way barrels are cut. ZCI have both m14 and standard AEG cuts, but otherwise you probably would need something that specifically states it's an m14 barrel. Barrel isn't the end of the world, the important parts for consistency, range and accuracy are the hop rubber and nub; can just run it with the standard barrel for now. Also, AK2M4 does ZCI barrels and is where I got mine, but he's not taking orders at the moment because of the royal mail strikes.

Also, for a scope you need a scope mount. Just in case you didn't already incorporate it:

https://www.patrolbase.co.uk/cyma-m14-m1a-scope-mount

Out of stock, but can probably find one elsewhere. The Tokyo Marui one will also fit as Cyma are Tokyo Marui clones

Ah I see! I won't be ordering for a while so might be able to get hold of those bits if I do end up going this direction.

A couple of quick questions about FPS and Joules:

1. I assume the weight of the BB will affect the performance of the gun in terms of accuracy and range - increasing the weight of the BB increases the accuracy but decreases the range and vice versa? How much of a difference does this make? What weight should I be looking at if I was to use the M14 at range? I assume I'd want a heavier BB to increase accuracy but how much range am I going to sacrifice?

2. My local Airsoft field doesn't have a BB weight limit (nor an FPS limit it seems) but it does have a Joules limit. This is from their website:

2.1 All weapons used will have to pass a chronograph test using the weight BB you intent to shoot and conform to the following limits:

Full Auto weapons, Pistols & Shotguns MAX 1.15 joules

Semi Auto Locked (DMR's) MAX 1.88 joules

Bolt Action Rifles MAX 2.32 joules

Does this mean that I could get the gun up to 380 FPS using .28 BBs and it would be legal?

3. Would the stock FPS be sufficient in terms of range for what I'm looking for or would I need to upgrade it somehow? What would it take to get the FPS up towards the 380-400 range? 

With such limited experience, I don't really know what FPS actually looks like in the field. It says the stock FPS is 340 for the M14 but I have no idea whether or not that's sufficient for a DMR style weapon. Isn't this what most full auto guns are and DMRs/snipers are around/above 400?

Thanks again for the help so far and thanks again in advance!

 

[Colin Allen]

Ah I see! I won't be ordering for a while so might be able to get hold of those bits if I do end up going this direction.

A couple of quick questions about FPS and Joules:

1. I assume the weight of the BB will affect the performance of the gun in terms of accuracy and range - increasing the weight of the BB increases the accuracy but decreases the range and vice versa? How much of a difference does this make? What weight should I be looking at if I was to use the M14 at range? I assume I'd want a heavier BB to increase accuracy but how much range am I going to sacrifice?

2. My local Airsoft field doesn't have a BB weight limit (nor an FPS limit it seems) but it does have a Joules limit. This is from their website:

2.1 All weapons used will have to pass a chronograph test using the weight BB you intent to shoot and conform to the following limits:

Full Auto weapons, Pistols & Shotguns MAX 1.15 joules

Semi Auto Locked (DMR's) MAX 1.88 joules

Bolt Action Rifles MAX 2.32 joules

Does this mean that I could get the gun up to 380 FPS using .28 BBs and it would be legal?

3. Would the stock FPS be sufficient in terms of range for what I'm looking for or would I need to upgrade it somehow? What would it take to get the FPS up towards the 380-400 range? 

With such limited experience, I don't really know what FPS actually looks like in the field. It says the stock FPS is 340 for the M14 but I have no idea whether or not that's sufficient for a DMR style weapon. Isn't this what most full auto guns are and DMRs/snipers are around/above 400?

Thanks again for the help so far and thanks again in advance!

1. Heavier BBs tend to give greater accuracy and longer range.

2. Yes, if it is locked to semi, although you would be very close to the limit.  Bear in mind that not all chronos read the same so you could end up not being able to use it if the site chrono reads higher than your one.

3.  While power has an impact on range, a high quality barrel (not a Madbull Python!), hop unit, rubber and nub are vital, as is ensuring that you have excellent airseals and that the barrel and cylinder are properly matched.  To push the power up to 1.87J, you need to fit a stronger spring; to pull back that stronger spring, you are almost certainly going to need a high torque motor.  However, there is far more to setting up a DMR than that.

Your site is sensible in using Joules rather than FPS; 1.88J is around 450 FPS using a 0.20g BB.

Impulse gave you good advice.

 

[Impulse]

1. I assume the weight of the BB will affect the performance of the gun in terms of accuracy and range - increasing the weight of the BB increases the accuracy but decreases the range and vice versa? How much of a difference does this make? What weight should I be looking at if I was to use the M14 at range? I assume I'd want a heavier BB to increase accuracy but how much range am I going to sacrifice?

2. My local Airsoft field doesn't have a BB weight limit (nor an FPS limit it seems) but it does have a Joules limit. This is from their website:

2.1 All weapons used will have to pass a chronograph test using the weight BB you intent to shoot and conform to the following limits:

Full Auto weapons, Pistols & Shotguns MAX 1.15 joules

Semi Auto Locked (DMR's) MAX 1.88 joules

Bolt Action Rifles MAX 2.32 joules

Does this mean that I could get the gun up to 380 FPS using .28 BBs and it would be legal?

3. Would the stock FPS be sufficient in terms of range for what I'm looking for or would I need to upgrade it somehow? What would it take to get the FPS up towards the 380-400 range? 

With such limited experience, I don't really know what FPS actually looks like in the field. It says the stock FPS is 340 for the M14 but I have no idea whether or not that's sufficient for a DMR style weapon. Isn't this what most full auto guns are and DMRs/snipers are around/above 400?

Thanks again for the help so far and thanks again in advance!

1. Heavier BBs tend to give better range AND accuracy. However, AEGs have a thing called cylinder to barrel ratio which I honestly don't understand all the intricacies on (the airsoft teching hole goes deep...), but what it basically means is that most AEGs have a sweet spot for BB weight at certain powers and it's different for every set up; helpful, I know. At 1.1J, running a .48 probably won't give a huge boost in performance and that's assuming the hop up can even lift it, but it will provide a huge boost in running costs as a bag of 1000x .48g BBs is between £25 - 30, where a bag of 3000x .32g BBs is between £18 - 20; triple the ammo, about 33% cheaper.

Joules, at the end of the day are a measure of kinetic energy. I'm going to dive into poorly explained science here because the last time I studied physics or mechanics was when I was 18 and doing my A-levels. When a BB is fired, it has a certain amount of kinetic energy going in the direction of (hopefully) enemy players and is being slowed down by air resistance, pulled downwards by gravity and also affected by things like wind direction, rain, pesky leaves getting in the way etc. The heavier the projectile, the slower it will leave the barrel (assuming the same kinetic energy), however it will also take longer to decelerate as the mass of the projectile requires more resistance to lower its momentum. A good example is imagine throwing a cricket ball with a certain amount of kinetic energy and think how far it will go compared to a balloon thrown with the same amount of kinetic energy.

As I said, I haven't studied it in years and I'm awful at explaining it (I was more into statistics than mechanics). There are plenty of sources online that will explain kinetic energy, momentum, deceleration and all that lovely physics stuff better than I can.

2. Joules are far better than FPS for testing power. I run gas guns and I could probably get my m700 firing at 350fps on a .2 (so, no MED), but then being around 2.3J on a .48 thanks to a wonder called joule creep that is prevalent in gas platforms which would be unsafe to fire up close. (it's not a wonder, I hate it and am constantly wrestling with it ?)

2.1. You could, though if you're looking to go the DMR route it will cost more than £250 to build a decent one and require you to open up the gearbox, which I do NOT advise for a new player; hell, I've been doing this for years and I still don't do gearboxes. I just don't get them, no matter how many times I try. To build a DMR, you'll likely need a metal-toothed piston, high torque motor and a stronger spring at the very least, but you'll likely want more things like a full cylinder (most stock ones are ported which means you get lower air volumes which is not what you want for a DMR), MOSFET and better gears. Also, you start wrestling with MEDs as soon as you go over 1.14J, which means you can't shoot at anyone who is within a certain distance of you, whether it's 20 or 30m (the most common MEDs. 30m is the most common though) which means you would really need some sort of pistol or secondary to go alongside it. Some sites enforce that you must have a pistol or secondary if you want to run anything with an MED; my local site very much does.

However, as an added piece of advice, if you're running at 1.88J, you want to be using far heavier than a .28g BB. For me, I'd be looking to run .4s at least in a 1.88J build, preferably heavier if the hop up would lift it without dropping the power too much.

3. Stock FPS is more than sufficient. 340fps on a .2 means it will be pretty close to 1.1J and is exactly where mine is shooting at the moment (it's about 1.07J). Power does impact range and accuracy, but hop up and barrel setup impacts it far more. Also, not all sites have the same DMR rules, so if you set it up for 1.88J, you wouldn't be able to use it at other sites; my local site for example has DMRs at 1.64J and some sites go as far as 1.48J as a limit for DMRs. Therefore, if you want to do a DMR build, my advice would be do it with something with a quick change spring system so that you can adjust the power fairly easily without having to open the whole gearbox, which you don't want to be doing with an m14 at least because they're fiddly to get apart. I can go on at length about the pros and cons of building a DMR, but the TLR is that I generally don't think it's worth it because bolt actions are better at it.

Aaaaaand, it appears I've built another wall, though it is big and beautiful... ?

 

[Mackrel829]

Again, thanks so much for the time and effort you put into responding @Impulse, and to the other responses thus far!

It definitely looks like the M14 set up as you described would be a good option for me. It suits my play style and fits my budget so that's currently the front runner.

I've heard a lot of good things about the G&G CM16 so I think I'll do some research into that next and explore that as another possible option. It seems a bit more versatile than the M14 with the rails and adjustable stock and I think I could set it up to perform similarly with similar upgrades as described above and a scope on top. If anyone with experience of the CM16 has any advice, please feel free to offer it

 

[Rogerborg]

If anyone with experience of the CM16 has any advice, please feel free to offer it

Solid performers, decent quality plastic, but zero bells and whistles, and hugely overpriced now compared to Specna Arms, Double Eagle, Lancer Tactical and CYMA equivalents.

 

[RostokMcSpoons]

Re CM16.   My local site had a lot of them.  I used them on a few occasions, very good solid guns.  Too expensive now.  They've now started using Double Eagle M904's which are probably the same price, but as Rogerborg says they have more features.  I run an M906C and love it (just budget a tenner and five minutes of your time to replace the weak-sauce spring with a better one)


Re the M14 scope mount... it's out of stock at Patrolbase... and it's out of stock everywhere else I looked too - so I bought one from AliExpress (you can get loads of cheap - but occasionally crap - airsoft stuff from there, if you're willing to wait)

The problem is the mounting bolts are the wrong size for the Cyma's existing holes.  So I bought a set of threading bits (I forget the proper name, but I'm sure you know what I mean).  Damn it.  Still not the right size!  My set was integer sizes, the AliExpress mount seems to be a half size (M6.5)

So I've not got around to fitting mine yet.  Might be worth waiting for a UK supply.

 

[Impulse]

Re CM16.   My local site had a lot of them.  I used them on a few occasions, very good solid guns.  Too expensive now.  They've now started using Double Eagle M904's which are probably the same price, but as Rogerborg says they have more features.  I run an M906C and love it (just budget a tenner and five minutes of your time to replace the weak-sauce spring with a better one)


Re the M14 scope mount... it's out of stock at Patrolbase... and it's out of stock everywhere else I looked too - so I bought one from AliExpress (you can get loads of cheap - but occasionally crap - airsoft stuff from there, if you're willing to wait)

The problem is the mounting bolts are the wrong size for the Cyma's existing holes.  So I bought a set of threading bits (I forget the proper name, but I'm sure you know what I mean).  Damn it.  Still not the right size!  My set was integer sizes, the AliExpress mount seems to be a half size (M6.5)

So I've not got around to fitting mine yet.  Might be worth waiting for a UK supply.

TM one is in stock in several places and will fit as it's what I've got on mine, but holy hell is it expensive for what it is! Cheapest I found was £40 on airsoftworld.net, which is a pretty extortionate price and I doubt I paid that much for mine! (I got both of mine years and years ago...)

Unfortunately, the Laylax one doesn't fit, which is a shame as it's my favourite and I haven't tried the G&P one on my Cyma. The Laylax one doesn't mesh properly with the Cyma receiver and goes on at a slight angle meaning you'll never get it horizontally zeroed.

 

[BigStew]

Thanks for such a detailed response!

Is this the M14 you're referring to?

https://www.patrolbase.co.uk/cyma-cm-032-m14-rifle

I've also seen that G&G CM16 Combat Machines are pretty highly regarded for new players. Would this be similar to the M14 in terms of range?

No out the box the cyma m14 out ranges most stock guns. If you want cheap range m14 us the one to go for

 

[EvilMonkee]

I attended my first Airsoft skirmish today and found it pretty enjoyable! I rented the gear, which seemed to be pretty sub-par and inhibited my enjoyment somewhat, but I think it could be something that I could get into. Before I go spending money that I shouldn't on gear, I thought I better ask a few questions and get some advice.

I mostly want to know at this stage what type of gun should I be looking for. I found long engagements more enjoyable than close quarters. I liked taking a different path from the rest of the team, finding some cover and engaging from a distance.

No, what you really need to be looking at as a beginner (and I am surprised noone has said this yet) is good eye protection, face protection and good boots to support your ankles. Be safe first, THEN worry about what pew you are going to get.

 

[RostokMcSpoons]

No, what you really need to be looking at as a beginner (and I am surprised noone has said this yet) is good eye protection, face protection and good boots to support your ankles. Be safe first, THEN worry about what pew you are going to get.

True, but it's easy to get excited about the pews
There are other threads recommending those items so just have a search for 'em.  (For 'em... in a forum, if you'll pardon the pun  ... I'm here all week)

I found a Cyma M14 mount here ... https://www.moaitoys.com/shop/index.php/cyma-c40-scope-mount-base-for-m14-series-aeg-black.html
It's $11 and $13 for shipping.   Not a bad total price, though of course no idea how long delivery will actually take.  Rather than buying a new threading bit and maybe ending up with an askew Laylax-style mount, I'll get me one of those "definitely the right one for the job" pieces instead. 
Unfortunately Paypal doesn't seem to want to play ball when trying to checkout, I may need to try a different browser etc.

 

[Hudson]

If in doubt, try Amazon.

ToopMount Scope Mount Tactical M14 Rifle Hunting 20mm Mount Tactical Locking New Gen Rifles Sniper Mount Aluminum for Airsoft Hunting https://amzn.eu/d/66y1FMi

 

[Terrywristt]

As others have said, it might be worth just going the normal M4 route, as you'll have a plethora of customisation options.  If you're dead set on the M14 look then i'd still keep it as a full auto AEG.  DMR FPS limits tend to fluctuate between sites as there's no "standard" so there's a risk of you not being able to field your DMR if you do decide to try different sites.   I'd only start thinking about making a DMR when you already have an full auto AEG.

Also you got to take into account that a lot of sites have a minimum engagement distance for snipers/DMR's and carrying a pistol is a requirement if you do decide to use a sniper/DMR, for you to be able to engage targets who fall below their MED.