Ptw - I'm in Love....

[AlphaBear]

Fair enough. It's just that I see far more Scorpions, NGRS, HPA etc than PTWs. In fact, I don't think I've crossed paths with a PTW at any game day I've played in the last 5 years. A decade ago, there was always at least 4-5 PTW users.

I mean, where can you even buy a PTW from in the UK? None of the major retailers stock them anymore.

I doubt there will be a resurgence in the platform though, even with the new gearbox. But the existing user base will lap it up I'm sure.

The resurgence will no doubt happen I do believe but on a niche scale. Mostly by the current enthusiasts.  Let’s face it not everyone can drop a grand and a half on a RIF (I say that in the nicest way too).  But then again so many people drop a grand easily on upgrading recoils (let’s not go down that route lol). Of course Japan will lead the way as it always does and then word will filter out on the normal channels. 
 

Fire Support is the only UK retailer who still deals with PTWs and then there is Tac. If you need one people just go to TAC. Simple as that. Oh Sam up at  KoA also started off with PTWs so he’s got a background in them. You will also find these days a PTW is built to order and then it’s a specific build. 
 

 

[Speedbird_666]

Fire Support don't even list the base guns on the website anymore. If they are not being used anywhere nearly as much on game days, and they are not even visible on retailer websites, how will the user base for the platform expand with new blood? Christ, I don't think I've even seen one on a gameplay YouTube video in years come to think about it.

You can't even find the clones anywhere to pique people's interest either.

So I go back to my original point - relevance. They are the play thing of a small number of enthusiasts and collectors no doubt, but as a product in the wider Airsoft Industry space, they are but a footnote now. The world has moved on, and Systema has been too slow to catch up (IMO).

No malice intended towards anyone who owns and enjoys the platform, just throwing in my 2 pennies for a bit of civil discourse.

Have fun.

 

[AlphaBear]

We always have fun

I've just checked now and yup you're right they have stopped listing them now but let's face it their business model is driven by what the current demand is so recoils, scorpions, whatever floats peoples boats will be listed (obviously).... Granted many people won't have a clue what a PTW is as it's no longer mainstream and Systema certainly shot themselves in the foot with their marketing in that respect. There is no denying that. They continued their existence with the so called 'professional training arenas' outside of mainstream airsoft.

Now..... relevance is a state of mind. What is relevant to one person won't be relevant to another. I won't go out a buy a Specna or a Scorpion coz it's simply not relevant to me.... And yes there were clones back in the day and guess what they cost half the price and they simply didn't cut the mustard.... Also, you may be surprised how many people still run Systema's. They just work. One of my last games in October I took mine out for a spin... the reaction I got was''' mate what rifle is that". They have a unique sound and they always nearly always hit their target. People asked if they could have a quick play and I was fine with that... and the reaction was an unanimous WOW where can I get one.  Is my Systema better than my supa dupa recoil.... Hell yes. Hands down. Do I play with my recoils more? Yes I do.... Go figure.... 

Technology has moved on... R-hop, S-hop, whatever hop, HPA and so on.... prices have fallen and there is more variety in the market... however a Ferrari will always be a Ferrari regardless of the model... and a Systema is what it is... a damn bloody good airsoft rifle. Slap in a new cylinder and you can go from 330fps to 550fps in a matter of 10 seconds..... (and I know with HPA you can turn the knob and voila but guess what you need an air tank and a hose...)

 

[Groot]

@Speedbird_666

Without going full fanboi. 

The PTW feels different to all other airsoft guns that I have handled ( bar maybe the MWS but that doesn't apply since its ammo cap forces you to play a certain way ).
Redwolf put it the best in their GBBR Review. NGRS are awesome. If you want to win, get a PTW. 
The trigger and the general compliant click of the selector, is a huge thing really. The sound is delicious and really quiet on single relatively speaking.
It is thinner in both the grip and body, since normal AEG's are all fatter than normal M4's. Since the original TM designs were based around drawings and pictures. Everyone else just copied the sizing and here we are today. ( Bar a few like Umarex, but the SUCK inside ) 

The guns I have left are my 2008 PTW, an NGRS with all of the wanky upgrades (Which i got off a friend at a price that i couldn't say no to), a tricked out Gspec, a project MP5K PDW (Youtube of it coming at somepoint) and Glock pistol. 

The PTW out performs every AEG, i have ever used. Range, consistent accuracy, durability and reliability. My fully upgraded NGRS is just as good as a PTW but doesn't feel the same. ( ignoring recoil ) 

It is also harder to change the FPS on the fly ( which can be a big deal depending a fussy site chrono, ammo weight etc. If you run to the limit ), where the PTW is a 1min job with either new springs or shims.

Still very useful for woodland to cqb sites, with the same gat. 

The issue with Systema is their marketing department needs to be taken outside and shot. They have zero presence.

Had they built on their momentum back in 2008, when they were leaps and bounds in front of all others.  It would be a different story now.

The new box is revolutionary and if handed well, could make them the next hot thing. The potential to put that design into other guns styles is huge. Everyone has always dreamed of a PTW AK. 

Sadly, Again i think they will stay niche, because only those in the know will research or take the punt. This is their website ffs http://www.systema-engineering.com/ yawn. 
That smaller requirement will directly impact which retailers take the punt at stocking PTW vs the NGRS with mods, which has excellent exposure. 
Honestly your best bet it to get a challenge kit. It is not at all hard to build and like i mentioned before, the only historic weak area is the motor. Once sorted, you are set. 

I miss the hate at the chrono. My gun is so beat up now. Its only when they hear it shoot, does everyone stop and take note. Any negative comments, I lol at them and refer to them only as peasants. 

Then in most cases out range them by a good 10m .. Salty fun times

 

 

[Adolf Hamster]

Weird company with horrific marketing over the last decade.

sounds like a pretty accurate description.

must admit systema is a brand i have yet to understand.

different mechanism that yeilds good performance yes, very high quality yes, but from what i've seen of them running i wouldn't say they shoot than what you can acheive with a regular aeg if you know what you're doing.

the spring swap is a consideration, but for example on a flat limit (eg if you only play outdoors, or play somewhere with a fixed energy limit for all guns) it's kind of a moot point.

of course that's a passing impression, and i get the feeling that it's one of those "you have to own one to understand" kind of deals.

 

[Groot]

sounds like a pretty accurate description.

must admit systema is a brand i have yet to understand.

different mechanism that yeilds good performance yes, very high quality yes, but from what i've seen of them running i wouldn't say they shoot than what you can acheive with a regular aeg if you know what you're doing.

the spring swap is a consideration, but for example on a flat limit (eg if you only play outdoors, or play somewhere with a fixed energy limit for all guns) it's kind of a moot point.

of course that's a passing impression, and i get the feeling that it's one of those "you have to own one to understand" kind of deals.

You would need to put a lot of work into a normal AEG to get it to how a PTW works out the box. But then you have already paid that with the systema brand. 
With precocking activated and a slick upgraded electric trigger. You are going to be close to the instant fire of the PTW and trigger feel. 
So yeah, there is no argument that you cannot produce a PTW quality gun with a normal aeg by putting hundreds of pounds of upgrade parts and much gun tech time. 
But it still wont feel in your hand like the PTW does, just very damn close.

Would I do it again. If i had to?

Yes, because I have not had any other AEG since I started playing in 1998 that has had more rounds through it and given me less issues, while giving me the range and accuracy advantage. 

The added bonus with the platform is actually what this entire thread started about.

With either a different cylinder or spring and a grub screw to lock out the full auto. You can go from auto to a 450fps dmr in minutes. 

 

[Adolf Hamster]

You would need to put a lot of work into a normal AEG to get it to how a PTW works out the box. But then you have already paid that with the systema brand. 
With precocking activated and a slick upgraded electric trigger. You are going to be close to the instant fire of the PTW and trigger feel. 
So yeah, there is no argument that you cannot produce a PTW quality gun with a normal aeg by putting hundreds of pounds of upgrade parts and much gun tech time. 
But it still wont feel in your hand like the PTW does, just very damn close.

true, it would take work, but taking an aeg and building it up would pass better in most people's minds than dropping a lot on the gun all at once.

i do want a tw5 at some point, because i want an mp5 and i dont think any of the gbbr versions are gonna suit my circumstances. but it's still a lot of cash to build up.

 

[Groot]

true, it would take work, but taking an aeg and building it up would pass better in most people's minds than dropping a lot on the gun all at once.

i do want a tw5 at some point, because i want an mp5 and i dont think any of the gbbr versions are gonna suit my circumstances. but it's still a lot of cash to build up.

 The way I see it. You can take a Golf GTI and drop loads into it and make it really good. It still wouldn't be Golf R. 

View attachment 68298

 

[Davegolf]

I came into this thread because someone said Golf GTI.

That ^ is not a Golf, #lardy

Real golfs happened in the 80s ?

View attachment 68307

 

[Groot]

I came into this thread because someone said Golf GTI.

That ^ is not a Golf, #lardy

Real golfs happened in the 80s ?

View attachment 68307

Nice lumbering heavy weight  

My golf history in order

Mk2 Golf GTI 16V in Blue

Mk1 Golf Gti White ( Guess how much i kick myself daily for selling this 20 years ago )
Mk5 Edition 30 Black
Mk6 GTI White 

Mk7.5 R ( 390 ponies of joy ) Red because red ones go faster

 

 

[Giraffe]

I had a TW5 briefly, and while I never really bought into any kind of Systema "magic" (I liked the slim grip and mag cutoff), the TW5 was actually crazy good. It shot for miles... the hop was awesome.

Also eww hot hatches.

 

[Adolf Hamster]

 The way I see it. You can take a Golf GTI and drop loads into it and make it really good. It still wouldn't be Golf R. 

i can kind of see the point you're trying to make, although i'm not sure it's the best anecdote.

possibly the issue is people that care enough about performance to be happy dropping that amount of cash are also not put off by the process involved in tweaking an aeg.

 

[Groot]

i can kind of see the point you're trying to make, although i'm not sure it's the best anecdote.

possibly the issue is people that care enough about performance to be happy dropping that amount of cash are also not put off by the process involved in tweaking an aeg.

 
Maybe i just want to show off my car?

 

[AlphaBear]

 
Maybe i just want to show off my car?

We have a car thread for that ?

Back to the topic... 390 ponies...... nice!!!

I played with a TW5 many moons ago and all I remember was the smile on my face and the sounds of pain and aguish in the opposing team as my bb's hit their target. That gun was bloody incredible and you just could not touch it performance wise... it was proper SAS storming the embassy feeling! 

 

[Groot]

We have a car thread for that ?

Back to the topic... 390 ponies...... nice!!!

I played with a TW5 many moons ago and all I remember was the smile on my face and the sounds of pain and aguish in the opposing team as my bb's hit their target. That gun was bloody incredible and you just could not touch it performance wise... it was proper SAS storming the embassy feeling! 

The TW5 was the holy grail of airsoft guns. It was SOoooo good!

 

[rj1986]

Are the clones any good compared to kosher PTW's, or is it better to stick to PTW's even if second hand?

 

[Speedbird_666]

I played with a TW5 many moons ago and all I remember was the smile on my face and the sounds of pain and aguish in the opposing team as my bb's hit their target. That gun was bloody incredible and you just could not touch it performance wise... it was proper SAS storming the embassy feeling!

This is where Systema confuses me.

They had the high-end market by the balls ten years ago, yet they don't seem to give a shit.

A website that looks like it hasn't been updated in years. A laughably bad social media presence. I guess they had a big contract with the Japanese military for PTW Type 89s which had them distracted?

They could most likely spit out a fuck tonne of TW5s if they wanted to, and it sounds like there's still a demand for them, but noooope.

I knew TM could be funny buggers, not really giving a shit about markets outside of Japan, but Systema seems to be on a whole other level of indifference.

All this talk of PTWs does actually make me want to get one, just to experience the high-endy-ness (yes, I made that word up). But I'll need to sell off a kidney and my first born child beforehand.

 

[AlphaBear]

@Speedbird_666You hit the nail on the head there with a big mallet. Systema could have cornered the airsoft market back then if they wanted but I expect it wasn't their primary focus. They obviously are happy with their dealings with local MIL and Law Enforcement and the supply of their training products to that market  accordingly. It wouldn't surprise me if were is some gentleman's agreement between them and other airsoft manufacturers not to encroach on each others territory. In a warped sense of reality it kinda almost makes sense... well almost

Perhaps one day, when it's safe to play again you may get the chance of shooting a PTW... be warned though you'll never be the same again.. ?

Are the clones any good compared to kosher PTW's, or is it better to stick to PTW's even if second hand?

Avoid like the plague... the DTW tried and kinda almost got a foothold... they probably still have a large following no doubt I believe and JDAirsoft was big back in the day of promoting the DTW...

Of course there is GBLS DAS too.... A Systema recoil wannabe but that's another can of worms which I don't want to open...

 

[Groot]

Mil and LE is a huge market as you would expect. The way they buy them is awesome too. 

To give you an example. I did a contract for very low level custom servers along time ago. While they only needed about 50, they also needed all the spares and consumables for the servers for 10 years. So this already large order just ballooned and I put so much shit on. They just ordered it. 

For the PTW's I would imagine buy thousands in one go, all to the same location.

When they break, they will bin them and grab a fresh one out of the backup stock. Then ask for more. 

I would imagine somewhere, there are many many dumped but good PTWs. That just need a bit of love and would be perfectly good. 

Also all the clones are SHIT.

There were made from cheap parts and always failed.

I saw two people get new DTW's at a game. They got them out the boxes, put in the batteries, magged up and both popped smoke when the ecu's melted. 

Fun times. 

 

[SammieSurrey]

On 26/01/2021 at 15:13, Groot said:

My 2008 it is current incarnation. I am fairly confident that this is one of the most beaten up and misused PTWs about.

First thing to be aware of. They are very picky about BB's. Do not put shit ones in. It will cost you. 
Geoffs and Valkyries work really well.  

View attachment 68183

Best place for Parts is Ebay, Forums, www.powair6.com, https://emperionstore.com/ and https://www.haoptwart.com/ 

Gun techs you have the infamous Tackleberry but you also have Tacbelts. Both of which have Facebook pages. Careful not to upset the Tackleberry simps. 

Honestly, maintaining a PTW is total cake. The hard part is keeping the motor singing. 

FCC is very expensive and their parts can be hit and miss. That said, yours looks well put together. 

As far as I know. You should be able to put a normal PTW upper straight on. The cylinders are certainly interchangeable. 

Inner barrel, I would got with an Orga Wide 
Hop up. Using a standard Systema housing, I would go for Orga Flat Hop and cage. ( Lazer beam ). Avoid the prebuild Super Awesome pro options. They generally SUCK!
There are rails aplenty to suit your personal style. Just be aware you will need to get the uppers standard thread, re-threaded to accept Airsoft barrel nuts. ( Some of the more gucci rails come with one which accepts both )

If you do not have a second cylinder for your CQBR build. Rather than buy one, which is at least £100 for a non branded option. Just buy a second spring. 
While straight swapping cylinders is one of the main selling points of PTW. You can easily unscrew the bottom of a cylinder ( which is not under pressure FYI ) and swap out for a higher/lower spring in about 1minute and then slam the thing back into the gun.  EZ

Then source the rest of your stuff like the upper and outer barrel second hand. I've seen them go on ebay for like £30. There have been a few around on this forum too. 
I would also replace your steelie mags with Pmags. There appears to be an abundance on for sale the forums at the moment.

There is a new PTW due this year which has an entirely new gearbox with internal brushless motor and DSG Gears.
Not going change mine but the new design is nice. ( Avoid the Recoil version with the Lipo in the Mags )

Thank you for the awesome reply. It’s a shame Brexit has got in the way of UK shipping or I would be... well... I’d be broke anyway ?