Problem selling a rif

[Enid_Puceflange]

So why make it hard for yourself to buy something from somebody that is just wanting to cover their back by checking a UKARA to give them some confidence that you , the buyer , have a genuine defence for buying a replica?

Im at a loss trying to understand why you would make it difficult for both parties?

or am I missing a bigger picture here? ?

 

[Cannonfodder]

Don’t expect anyone to take my word for it, do your own research, the law is clear and readily available online 

You made the claim so it's up to up to you to back it up with evidence. In my experience those who say "do your own research" are unable to as there isn't any

 

[1967PF44]

So why make it hard for yourself to buy something from somebody that is just wanting to cover their back by checking a UKARA to give them some confidence that you , the buyer , have a genuine defence for buying a replica?

Im at a loss trying to understand why you would make it difficult for both parties?

or am I missing a bigger picture here? ?

You are missing the the facts, because the OP has not really told the story accurately  I supplied my UKARA in the first message after he asked for it,  however what I said was - this is my number ********* I think! , and said something like, I’ve never used it for years as I don’t buy from retailers….  He may have assumed by that comment that it’s expired, which of course if he actually checked would know it wasn’t.  What I meant was I wasn’t certain of the number as I never have had cause to use it.  Although as discussions went on, I’m not sure he even tried to check. Within the next message or 2 from me I asked for an update? And offered additional information to help him verify my player status, including a very clear picture of my membership tags, which contain my full name, post code and No., details of my profile on another platform so that he could verify my identity, which would have been confirmed further by the PayPal payment, details of the site where I play and Marshall, I pointed him to my profile and feedback on here to verify I was a long standing member of good reputation……. To which he basically said photos and profile information doesn’t prove anything as I could be anyone….. I didn’t point out that there are quite a few fake entries on the UKARA Database. Lol 

You are missing the the facts, because the OP has not really told the story accurately  I supplied my UKARA in the first message after he asked for it,  however what I said was - this is my number ********* I think! , and said something like, I’ve never used it for years as I don’t buy from retailers….  He may have assumed by that comment that it’s expired, which of course if he actually checked would know it wasn’t.  What I meant was I wasn’t certain of the number as I never have had cause to use it.  Although as discussions went on, I’m not sure he even tried to check. Within the next message or 2 from me I asked for an update? And offered additional information to help him verify my player status, including a very clear picture of my membership tags, which contain my full name, post code and No., details of my profile on another platform so that he could verify my identity, which would have been confirmed further by the PayPal payment, details of the site where I play and Marshall, I pointed him to my profile and feedback on here to verify I was a long standing member of good reputation……. To which he basically said photos and profile information doesn’t prove anything as I could be anyone….. I didn’t point out that there are quite a few fake entries on the UKARA Database. Lol 

In short I didn’t think I had made it hard, I gave him everything he asked for. 

 

[1967PF44]

You made the claim so it's up to up to you to back it up with evidence. In my experience those who say "do your own research" are unable to as there isn't any

I can’t link the GDPR page for some reason, but A direct quote, “personal Data” means any information relating to an identified or identifiable individual”  the definition of “Senstive data” includes membership of trade unions and other organisations such as clubs, protest groups, etc - basically anything that reveals a sensitive aspect of your life.  So our membership and activity status on the UKARA database can only be shared with explicit consent for specified purpose under Article 9 GDPR, Paragraph 2a.. 

So it follows that like all airsofters who are on the UKARA database we have given specific consent in signing up, to allow “ retailer “ who subscribe to the scheme access to the information to allow them to satisfy themselves that they can lawfully sell a RIF, and for no other purpose.   (Words to that effect are certainly on the form I signed many many years ago when I joined.   
 

now in reality it actually doesn’t matter to me, I’m not sensitive about my UKARA membership, and when I supplied the information -on request-  to the seller, it hadn’t occurred to me that unless he is a retailer he really has no way of checking me out. So I offered him a whol list of other ways to verify my good standing, including one that would have verified my UKARA status, but for some reason he chose not to do that, ……..and I am the strange one  being called all sorts of unfortunate names. 

 

[Tommikka]

I can’t link the GDPR page for some reason, but A direct quote, “personal Data” means any information relating to an identified or identifiable individual”  the definition of “Senstive data” includes membership of trade unions and other organisations such as clubs, protest groups, etc - basically anything that reveals a sensitive aspect of your life.  So our membership and activity status on the UKARA database can only be shared with explicit consent for specified purpose under Article 9 GDPR, Paragraph 2a.. 

So it follows that like all airsofters who are on the UKARA database we have given specific consent in signing up, to allow “ retailer “ who subscribe to the scheme access to the information to allow them to satisfy themselves that they can lawfully sell a RIF, and for no other purpose.   (Words to that effect are certainly on the form I signed many many years ago when I joined.   
 

now in reality it actually doesn’t matter to me, I’m not sensitive about my UKARA membership, and when I supplied the information -on request-  to the seller, it hadn’t occurred to me that unless he is a retailer he really has no way of checking me out. So I offered him a whol list of other ways to verify my good standing, including one that would have verified my UKARA status, but for some reason he chose not to do that, ……..and I am the strange one  being called all sorts of unfortunate names. 

Under the GDPR, personal data is that which identifies/links to  you as a living individual, which includes your name, DOB, address/postcode, email, telephone number, memberships number etc

Sensitive personal data covers areas such as:

race

ethnic background

political opinions

religious beliefs

trade union membership

genetics

biometrics (where used for identification)

health

sex life or orientation

https://www.gov.uk/data-protection
 

Trade unions are listed, which can be particularly sensitive when considering employment, protest groups are not listed but are a fair call with regards to the potential links to beliefs / politics and sensitivities on differing opinions and the influence it could have on someone’s opinion of you in unrelated areas.

Membership of a group does not fall into the same level, unless there would be factors relating to the type of group.

Airsoft could be something you feel touchey about publicising it.

However, you are attempting to buy an Airsoft gun from someone which implies you play Airsoft and they are also legally liable if they sell to you without a valid purpose.

You have given them the elements of personal data, and there would be no GDPR breach in confirming status under the UKARA.

The entire purpose of the UKARA player database is to validate an individuals status, and the GDPR declaration states that information will be shared among parties - and they are not restricted to retailers only (it does state that they are the primary purpose).  The specifics on the wording from the UKARA may vary over time and also with a site specific form as you sign up as a member of a site which is then added to the central UKARA player database.

Note that a seller does not get provided with the members details. The UKARA or a site confirm or deny that the records match

 

[Iceni]

Note that a seller does not get provided with the members details. The UKARA or a site confirm or deny that the records match

The details been kept by Ukara are literally, Name, Address, Skirmish site, Ukara Status, Email.

Given that this is a transaction where postage is needed you have already provided, Name, Address, Valid Ukara, potentially Email.

So exactly the same information is passed on regardless. As you can only have a RIF shipped to your Ukara address. If it's shipped to another address, or name then it's outside of the scope of Ukara defence and should be flagged.

Providing a Ukara number in order to make a sale, Is giving permission for that Ukara number to be checked. And the conversation should be wholly one sided if you need to contact a retailer to make that check.

The conversation needs to go like I have X number to check, Mr X, of X address. And the answer only needs to be a confirmation of information. Ukara and the retailer do not provide information about the buyer, That information has already been provided by the buyer to the seller.
 

 

[1967PF44]

Under the GDPR, personal data is that which identifies/links to  you as a living individual, which includes your name, DOB, address/postcode, email, telephone number, memberships number etc

Sensitive personal data covers areas such as:

race

ethnic background

political opinions

religious beliefs

trade union membership

genetics

biometrics (where used for identification)

health

sex life or orientation

https://www.gov.uk/data-protection
 

Trade unions are listed, which can be particularly sensitive when considering employment, protest groups are not listed but are a fair call with regards to the potential links to beliefs / politics and sensitivities on differing opinions and the influence it could have on someone’s opinion of you in unrelated areas.

Membership of a group does not fall into the same level, unless there would be factors relating to the type of group.

Airsoft could be something you feel touchey about publicising it.

However, you are attempting to buy an Airsoft gun from someone which implies you play Airsoft and they are also legally liable if they sell to you without a valid purpose.

You have given them the elements of personal data, and there would be no GDPR breach in confirming status under the UKARA.

The entire purpose of the UKARA player database is to validate an individuals status, and the GDPR declaration states that information will be shared among parties - and they are not restricted to retailers only (it does state that they are the primary purpose).  The specifics on the wording from the UKARA may vary over time and also with a site specific form as you sign up as a member of a site which is then added to the central UKARA player database.

Note that a seller does not get provided with the members details. The UKARA or a site confirm or deny that the records match

It’s been an interesting discussion,  with at least a few making good well thought out or researched arguments. Making them without insults adds to the value of the discussion and  allows others to learn from the wealth of knowledge and experience in the group. 
 

The list of specifics is a list of examples (not an exclusive list) hence the use of “such as”  and I can assure you it includes  things like club membership., and would include site membership. I say this for the sole purpose of the strict legal position and not for the purposes of the OPs original post (the thread has moved on) I say this on the basis of experience where membership of a rifle club was revealed to an employer of a friend of mine who was thereafter turned down for promotion. The employer had a very public anti firearms/anti hunting position and actually told him his possession of air rifles and shotguns was incompatible with the promoted post he was applying for.  Several employers I am aware of have stated a very clear preference that  employees don’t have Airsoft images on their  social media presence. So being on the UKARA register is sensitive to some - and that’s all that is required to hit that definition.

so it follows that any Tom dick an harry cannot be allowed access to that information- in the case  in question,  I actually would not have minded the seller verifying  my player status, and that’s why I immediately on request provided him everything he needed name, address, Ukaar No, an image of my tags containing the same info, the name of my regular site, I mentioned I Marshall at that site, and a quick call to them will verify everything - surely it was better for him to call someone that knows me rather than some random retailer who has no idea who I am and who would ultimately be (in my and many others opinion)  breaking the law, even if done in good faith and with good intentions. 
 

it would been a moot point either way if the seller having demanded all of this information had simply used it, verified my status and sold me the pistol, he would have immediately had further confirmation of my ID and address from my verified PayPal account. 
 

To go back to the lawful purpose - because it’s deemed sensitive data, it needs specific consent to process it, I doubt any airsofter has given “specific” consent to UKARA as the data controller, to share their data with members of the public claiming to want to sell someone an Airsoft gun.   
**EDIT***

adirional info

actually regardless of whether we agree that membership status amounts to “sensitive information”  the UKARA.ORG GDPR PRIVACY POLICY confirms that the data is only held for the use of retailers, Border Force, Hampshire Police. Third party access is restricted to matters where data protection principals  are full filled (I assume “for filled” is a typo) - so that would be for the prevention or investigation of criminal acts etc….and only once a suitable and certified exemption declaration is supplied 

section 11 makes it clear that data is not accessible to third parties - I think that clears it up.

sadly doesn’t help me buy the beautiful RIF the OP was selling ?

View attachment 95207

 

[Iceni]

Several employers I am aware of have stated a very clear preference that  employees don’t have Airsoft images on their  social media presence. So being on the UKARA register is sensitive to some

You can't search the database by name, I believe - But I may be wrong. I think the only search you can make is by number that leads to the information to confirm the Ukara status. I know when I've called to check my own status in the past I needed to provide my number, name alone wasn't enough, and my name is very unique with only a couple of hits worldwide.

The general public also don't have access to the database, hence we need to contact a retailer to confirm status.

As such an employer would need your Ukara number to actually make the search.




Air rifles under 12ft/lb no licence is needed in the UK and no information needs to be exchanged for a sale for any party other than confirmation of age. Scotland is different and the laws that Wee Jimmy Krankie put in place are frankly insane. I feel for you guys on that one.


 

 

[1967PF44]

You can't search the database by name, I believe - But I may be wrong. I think the only search you can make is by number that leads to the information to confirm the Ukara status. I know when I've called to check my own status in the past I needed to provide my number, name alone wasn't enough, and my name is very unique with only a couple of hits worldwide.

The general public also don't have access to the database, hence we need to contact a retailer to confirm status.

As such an employer would need your Ukara number to actually make the search.




Air rifles under 12ft/lb no licence is needed in the UK and no information needs to be exchanged for a sale for any party other than confirmation of age. Scotland is different and the laws that Wee Jimmy Cranky put in place are frankly insane. I feel for you guys on that one.


 

So you have recognised that the general public don’t have access to the register, but retailers are apparently sharing information from the register with the public, and that’s my point about GDPR - they are not allowed to do that.  My name and post code was sufficient for a UK retailer to verify my status a couple of years ago, don’t know if that’s changed, but that retailer added my UKARA no to the shipping package - so they were able to get that from the register. 

 

[Tackle]

My understanding is that they "share" feck all, you supply a UKARA number, ideally with a name & postcode, the helpful retailer will confirm if the ukara is still active & that all 3 snippets of information match, nothing more, so it's hardly a data breach, coupled with the fact that in order to get your ukara "licence" (?), you willingly supplied this information to potentially numerous third parties. 

As a seller, they need to be convinced that your a bona fide airsofters, & the truth is some sellers need more convincing than others, but going down the ukara route also gives them the assurance that UKARA details match with PayPal & delivery address. 

Again, referencing the fact its the school Holidays, in 21 years of playing & forum memberships, pre & post vcra I've seen too many stories of sprogs trying to work the system to get their pubescent mitts on rifs. 

As I stated before, the rules aren't perfect & we may not all like & agree with them, buts it's all we've got so if anyone gets their panties in a twist over gdpr etc, don't register shit & it won't be a problem, but likewise don't be surprised if some people won't sell to you if your even the slightest bit cagey about stuff. 

Think back to the days when in order to buy a firearm privately, you were expected to mail your certificate to an unknown seller & hope he wasn't a crook, that was some fucked up shit that makes gdpr look positively bulletproof lol. 

 

[Rogerborg]

Normally I'd get all <ackchually> over this, but just for once I'm going to take a higher level view:

OP lost a sale and created this drama through being overly paranoid, because nobody cares.

Police forces and Trading Standards don't care.  Nobody is enforcing this.  No private seller is ever, in practice, going to be asked to provide a defence.

Even if they were, there are no standards for it.  A simple declaration by the buyer about the intended use would satisfy the letter of the law.  UKARA, and all equivalent schemes, are suggestive, not prescriptive.

Given any evidence that the buyer is a regular airsoft player, I'd have no qualms at all about selling to them.

Oh, and nobody is going to care about GDPR complaints either.  Not while there are feelings being hurt on Facebook.

 

[Tackle]

Normally I'd get all <ackchually> over this, but just for once I'm going to take a higher level view:

OP lost a sale and created this drama through being overly paranoid, because nobody cares.

Police forces and Trading Standards don't care.  Nobody is enforcing this.  No private seller is ever, in practice, going to be asked to provide a defence.

Even if they were, there are no standards for it.  A simple declaration by the buyer about the intended use would satisfy the letter of the law.  UKARA, and all equivalent schemes, are suggestive, not prescriptive.

Given any evidence that the buyer is a regular airsoft player, I'd have no qualms at all about selling to them.

Oh, and nobody is going to care about GDPR complaints either.  Not while there are feelings being hurt on Facebook.

Got to admit I kinda feel the same way, but knowingly telling players, especially noobs, that no one really bothers is generally frowned upon.

(unless a "real" crime is committed using an airsoft rif, & even then I don't think the plod have tried very hard to track the source of said rif?). 

In fact I might even admit to pm'ing a few noobs that hated their two tones but were worried who may come after them if they got busy with a can of matt black........ If your sensible, no one, ever. 

But if I have a rif for sale, I will consider looking at the buyers profile content, if it looks immature or confrontational, I'll likely decline a sale?, after all, I don't want to be "that guy", the one who messes it up for the rest by selling to someone who clearly is a liability , as while the plod don't seem too concerned, coroners are a different matter. 

 

[Tommikka]

Think back to the days when in order to buy a firearm privately, you were expected to mail your certificate to an unknown seller & hope he wasn't a crook, that was some fucked up shit that makes gdpr look positively bulletproof lol. 

…. Major tangent …..

I used to work with someone who’s ‘hobbies’ included deer management and being the police POC to finish off deer on the side of the road.

Most of his shooting was by camera, but he always had a rifle & ammunition locked in the appropriate safes in the back of his pickup

When he discovered that I made trips out to the regional offices and would sometimes be passing a specialist gun shop he would get his orders in and either try to come with me for items that had to be purchased in person or sent me with his certificate or just his ID when it could be picked up by anyone 

Funnily his preferred hunting and target grade ammunition’s were classified the other way around, and needed extra documentation to purchase hunting grade that he would just use for target practice and less documentation to purchase target grade which he would use for hunting kills (Because he considered that grade more finely accurate and gained cleaner/more humane kills)

 

[Rogerborg]

knowingly telling players, especially noobs, that no one really bothers is generally frowned upon

It's true though. I don't encourage or assist buyers to obtain RIFs without a genuine airsoft defence, but neither am I going to pretend that it's a problem for them to do so given the number of private and business sellers who don't care.

Is telling the truth a problem? "Nobody cares" also means that nobody is monitoring this forum in order to cry "Ah hah!  Shenanigans! Remove their defence!", because they could prove that with a few test purchases.

In fact, gel blaster sellers could be prosecuted right now, given that they don't enjoy the airsoft defence. And yet... https://gelsoft.co.uk/gelsoft-rifles.html

 

[Tommikka]

In fact, gel blaster sellers could be prosecuted right now, given that they don't enjoy the airsoft defence. And yet... https://gelsoft.co.uk/gelsoft-rifles.html

….. and on their information / FAQ page they refer to frangibility plus that they are not replicas ….

Frangibility has been paintballs get out clause for many years on the basis that they are air weapons / firearms and therefore not replicas, but a recent review by a barrister on behalf of the UKPSF recommended no longer relying on that one.

The are selling realistic colours and with orange tips, which does not exempt from RIF definition.  Unless they are sufficiently under sized then they have made a rod for their own back by claiming not to be RIFs, but have also slipped in the word ‘skirmishing’

Australia and parts of the US have problems with gel blasters, so there’s an industry here that’s potentially going to grow and be used by people/children who get themselves into areas that could cause issues 

 

[Rogerborg]

….. and on their information / FAQ page they refer to frangibility plus that they are not replicas ….

The "frangibility" argument is the one I keep hearing in respect of paintball guns "markers", although I'm still wondering what their case law is on that, since that word doesn't appear in the Firearms Act definition of "a barrelled weapon of any description from which a shot, bullet or other missile, with kinetic energy of more than one joule at the muzzle of the weapon, can be discharged."

Those gel blasters clearly are realistic imitation firearms, and are intended to be so.

And the only argument I've seen put forward for why airguns can't be realistic imitations firearms is because they're actual firearms. That's not an interpretation I agree with (why can't they be both?), but even by that standard, claiming that gel blasters aren't firearms means it wouldn't apply.

The thing is, it's not really a serious issue, since they are by any reasonable common sense interpretation even less lethal than airsoft guns, and can be used for the same purposes.  It's just that they haven't been blessed with a Holy Circular from the Home Office saying so yet.

I don't wish them ill, but...

View attachment 95223

 

[1967PF44]

My understanding is that they "share" feck all, you supply a UKARA number, ideally with a name & postcode, the helpful retailer will confirm if the ukara is still active & that all 3 snippets of information match, nothing more, so it's hardly a data breach, coupled with the fact that in order to get your ukara "licence" (?), you willingly supplied this information to potentially numerous third parties. 

As a seller, they need to be convinced that your a bona fide airsofters, & the truth is some sellers need more convincing than others, but going down the ukara route also gives them the assurance that UKARA details match with PayPal & delivery address. 

Again, referencing the fact its the school Holidays, in 21 years of playing & forum memberships, pre & post vcra I've seen too many stories of sprogs trying to work the system to get their pubescent mitts on rifs. 

As I stated before, the rules aren't perfect & we may not all like & agree with them, buts it's all we've got so if anyone gets their panties in a twist over gdpr etc, don't register shit & it won't be a problem, but likewise don't be surprised if some people won't sell to you if your even the slightest bit cagey about stuff. 

Think back to the days when in order to buy a firearm privately, you were expected to mail your certificate to an unknown seller & hope he wasn't a crook, that was some fucked up shit that makes gdpr look positively bulletproof lol. 

They “share” your status “active” “inactive” “void” or no trace .. and it’s that status that is the “sensitive data” in law 

 

[Tackle]

They “share” your status “active” “inactive” “void” or no trace .. and it’s that status that is the “sensitive data” in law 

But surely, irrespective of gdpr, if you or I sign up for Ukara (mine lapsed years ago, another story) , we're giving our consent for what I consider to be very small snippets of information to be confirmed, in order to prove a defense & get that elusive rif. 

As the saying goes, "the end justifies the means", & anyone that disagrees with it should probably not bother signing up, or if changes in laws affect its lawfulness (such as gdpr coming in years after ukara's inception), which I'm guessing is what your concerned with, then have your entry deleted. 

Job done ? 

While I'm sure your probably right that UKARA infringes gdpr (I'm definitely no expert), the majority of airsofters rely on it for rif sales in all forms, & would probably rather keep it in its current "grey" form than potentially lose it completely without an alternative ready to take its place. 

 

[Guest]

But surely, irrespective of gdpr, if you or I sign up for Ukara, we're giving our consent for what I consider to be very small snippets of information to be confirmed, in order to prove a defense & get that elusive rif. 

As the saying goes, "the end justifies the means", & anyone that disagrees with it should probably not bother signing up, or if changes in laws affect its lawfulness (such as gdpr coming in years after ukara's inception), which I'm guessing is what your concerned with, then have your entry deleted. 

Job done ? 

While I'm sure your probably right that UKARA infringes gdpr (I'm definitely no expert), the majority of airsofters rely on it for rif sales in all forms, & would probably rather keep it in its current "gray" form than potentially lose it completely without an alternative ready to take its place. 

I think you should leave it there. You are always going to loose, arguing with idiots on the internet is a mugs game.

They’ll drag you down to their level and beat you with their experience ( I’m channeling Samuel L Clemens )

 

[Tackle]

I think you should leave it there. You are always going to loose, arguing with idiots on the internet is a mugs game.

They’ll drag you down to their level and beat you with their experience ( I’m channeling Samuel L Clemens )

I make you right ?