Overwhelmed about upgrade parts

[IntelligentCelestialBeing]

Prepared to be corrected.

A hop unit does way more than that it is a major part of your airseal and barrel to gearbox alignment. Most stock hops will outperform aftermarket ones as the manufacturer tolerances everything to work together and no two manufacturers are exactly the same. 

If you have got a really shite gun and the hop unit does need changing then prowin is not really a great option. They used to be ok but for a while now have hovered between meh and just crap. Maxx is a better option or just one of the cheap rotary prowin clones as they are generally ok.

Never recommend s-hop as it is awful, the results can be ok but they are very short lived. Most people especially new players are better using standard rubber nub combos.

The worst thing on airsoft internet sites is people who do not know advising others who do not know, please don't do it again.

I stand corrected although I do have to disagree with you about the s hop thing. Other than that good explaination and I shall rethink the prowin hop up and look out for a more suitable one 

 

[ImTriggerHappy]

I stand corrected although I do have to disagree with you about the s hop thing. Other than that good explaination and I shall rethink the prowin hop up and look out for a more suitable one 

How can you disagree about s-hop when you have no experience of it?

I have done a few and it is crap which is why I will no longer do it for anyone.

Seriously bud find out first hand and lots of actual experience before you offer tech advice.

 

[IntelligentCelestialBeing]

How can you disagree about s-hop when you have no experience of it?

I have done a few and it is crap which is why I will no longer do it for anyone.

Seriously bud find out first hand and lots of actual experience before you offer tech advice.

First of all that’s your opinion just because you tried it and it didn’t work out don’t mean s hop is shit. ?

there’s many variables as to why maybe it didn’t work out for you specifically. Also how do you know I haven’t tried it ? I said I haven’t fitted a prowin. 

S hop as been tested many many times. 

Your using anecdotal evidence. Not very strong evidence is it ? So now your on here talking as if

you know it all possibly spreading shit... note i said possibly . I’m not

sayimg you’re wrong. I’m saying your choice of evidence to support your claim is weak 

 

[E21A]

I looked into that s hop idea briefly, watched a vid on YouTube of it being tested. Went from 4/10 shots on target to 6/10 on target. Hardly mind blowing. 

 

[IntelligentCelestialBeing]

I looked into that s hop idea briefly, watched a vid on YouTube of it being tested. Went from 4/10 shots on target to 6/10 on target. Hardly mind blowing. 

But it’s increase accuracy none the less. Tune the weapon system up better. Buy a good barrel perfect hop up system maybe he’ll get better.

improved accuracy is improved accuracy. Also from 4/10 to 6/10 not taking into account how

good of a shooter the guy himself is. Firing a weapon real

or not isn’t as simple as aiming and pulling the trigger. 

You said it’s shit I didn’t say it’s good I said it improved accuracy which you just admitted it does.

However, im not saying youer wrong i am wise enough to Admit

the possibliy of me Being wrong, But are you? 

That is after how we get smarter 

 

[E21A]

But it’s increase accuracy none the less. Tune the weapon system up better. But a good barrel perfect hop up system maybe he’ll get better.

improved accuracy is improved accuracy. Also from 4/10 to 6/10 not taking into account how

good of a shooter the guy himself is. Firing a weapon real

or not isn’t as simple as aiming and pulling the trigger. 

You said it’s shit I didn’t say it’s good I said it improved accuracy which you just admitted it does.

However, im not saying youer wrong i am wise enough to Admit

the possibliy of me Being wrong, But are you? 

That is after how we get smarter 

It was done outdoors so could easily put it down to wind. Could also tell the shots were massively over hopped to “prove” it increases range. 

It it was also complete stock v s hop. I’d be willing to bet a ML macaron with omega nub would be better with less fucking about as well 

 

[ImTriggerHappy]

First of all that’s your opinion just because you tried it and it didn’t work out don’t mean s hop is shit. ?

there’s many variables as to why maybe it didn’t work out for you specifically. Also how do you know I haven’t tried it ? I said I haven’t fitted a prowin. 

S hop as been tested many many times. 

Your using anecdotal evidence. Not very strong evidence is it ? So now your on here talking as if

you know it all possibly spreading shit... note i said possibly . I’m not

sayimg you’re wrong. I’m saying your choice of evidence to support your claim is weak 

Tell you what go ahead carry on offering your experience less opinion and do what you want I mean I obviously have no fucking clue ?

 

[IntelligentCelestialBeing]

It was done outdoors so could easily put it down to wind. Could also tell the shots were massively over hopped to “prove” it increases range. 

Mate ? youre literally making excuses now. He shot 4/10 on target with no s hop and then 6/10 with it in the same outdoor Environment ?? youre telling me on the first 6 shots before he s hopped and the wind was None existant. How convient. 

 

[ImTriggerHappy]

It was done outdoors so could easily put it down to wind. Could also tell the shots were massively over hopped to “prove” it increases range. 

It it was also complete stock v s hop. I’d be willing to bet a ML macaron with omega nub would be better with less fucking about as well 

It can give ok results same as r- hop but they don't last long.

R-hop flat hop or some the better nub/bucking combos is definitely a better option.

 

[IntelligentCelestialBeing]

Tell you what go ahead carry on offering your experience less opinion and do what you want I mean I obviously have no fucking clue ?

Hahaha im not saying you dont have a clue im saying you Lack evidence and only have anecdotal evidence  

It can give ok results same as r- hop but they don't last long.

R-hop flat hop or some the better nub/bucking combos is definitely a better option.

I agree that all those things are good and I agree nub/bucking combos are good ? 

wouldn’t go as far to say s- hop is shit tho 

 

[ProPain87]

Could you provide evidence to prove your side of the debate, preferably evidence based on your own experience. Calling out people for having lack of evidence but providing none yourself ?‍

 

[Lozart]

Hahaha im not saying you dont have a clue im saying you Lack evidence and only have anecdotal evidence  

I can personally vouch for the wealth of experience Trig has in matters such as these. What you are calling "anecdotal evidence" is actually years of experience. But that's the thing with the internet, you never know who you're arguing the toss with!

As for Prowin...when they first came out they were heralded as the second coming, then the manufacturing tolerances all went to shit and now they're a bit touch and go which is why the more experienced among us have moved away from them. In all honesty if you want a Prowing style rotary hop (and it'll actually fit in your receiver) then you could do a lot worse than one of the ZCI copies that @ak2m4 sells and save yourself a few quid. Personally I've used several different hop ups and they've all boiled down to one thing - can they hold position consistently? It doesn't matter what they cost, if they can't hop without drifting then they're no bloody use at all.

Personally my current preference is the Maxx CNC unit with the built in tracer which unlike the Madbull Ultimate 3 in 1 works well as both a hop unit AND a tracer. It's currently combined with a Maple Leaf rubber and Omega nub and is consistent and has improved range with higher weights.

Hi All.

I'm looking to upgrade my Nuprol Delta M4 as out of the box its pretty pants, and very inconsistent with accuracy, i want to get this gun upgraded with full hop up / nub / barrel etc and also upgrade the motor,

There are so many brands out there, and i have not the foggiest whats good and what to stay away from,

can anyone recommend quality parts please.

First off, do the simple, cheap stuff. Clean your barrel and invest in a better hop rubber - Prometheus purple if you can get one or the Maple Leaf Macaron with the Maple Leaf Omega nub. Note that the Maple Leaf rubber is designed to work with the matching nub so you would need both together. See how that helps and then if you want to go further get a better inner barrel (such as the ZCI one mentioned above). Try to limit the amount of changes you make at one time so you can see what difference each one makes. If you change the rubber, the barrel and the hop unit in one go chances are you won't know why it suddenly won't feed or the FPS has gone too high!

 

[IntelligentCelestialBeing]

Could you provide evidence to prove your side of the debate, preferably evidence based on your own experience. Calling out people for having lack of evidence but providing none yourself ?‍

Im not the one saying I’m right tho but if you want me to provide evidence I shall. I’ll start with the weak evidence I have. 

Many people have tried and tested the s hop and all have had results that amount of frequency can’t be a coincidence. So I can safely assume trigger happy is an anomaly. Like In everything you have anomalies. 

the science behind it makes sense. A tradition bucking nub is rounded only covering a part of the hop up window therefore assuming your barrel isn’t precision engineered to 6.01mm the rounded nub will cause the bb to move within the barrel. Giving you inconsistent shots and poor accuracy.

s hop creates a flat rubber seal around the entire hop up window and curves with the barrel. This will provide maximum surface area on the bb thus reducing movement in the barrel and increasing accuracy and consistency. The sugru (assuming you use that) will wear down over time so will need to be changed to get same efficiency 

Last but certainly not least I have research this a most if not all  people and techs say that this is effective. 

What does trigger happy have ?? Oh yes his own experience sounds compelling 

I can personally vouch for the wealth of experience Trig has in matters such as these. What you are calling "anecdotal evidence" is actually years of experience. But that's the thing with the internet, you never know who you're arguing the toss with!

As for Prowin...when they first came out they were heralded as the second coming, then the manufacturing tolerances all went to shit and now they're a bit touch and go which is why the more experienced among us have moved away from them. In all honesty if you want a Prowing style rotary hop (and it'll actually fit in your receiver) then you could do a lot worse than one of the ZCI copies that @ak2m4 sells and save yourself a few quid. Personally I've used several different hop ups and they've all boiled down to one thing - can they hold position consistently? It doesn't matter what they cost, if they can't hop without drifting then they're no bloody use at all.

 

Personally my current preference is the Maxx CNC unit with the built in tracer which unlike the Madbull Ultimate 3 in 1 works well as both a hop unit AND a tracer. It's currently combined with a Maple Leaf rubber and Omega nub and is consistent and has improved range with higher weights.

First off, do the simple, cheap stuff. Clean your barrel and invest in a better hop rubber - Prometheus purple if you can get one or the Maple Leaf Macaron with the Maple Leaf Omega nub. Note that the Maple Leaf rubber is designed to work with the matching nub so you would need both together. See how that helps and then if you want to go further get a better inner barrel (such as the ZCI one mentioned above). Try to limit the amount of changes you make at one time so you can see what difference each one makes. If you change the rubber, the barrel and the hop unit in one go chances are you won't know why it suddenly won't feed or the FPS has gone too high!

I have accepted that I was wrong about the prowin. I shall check out the maxx CNC. 

However my disagreement is with the s hop being “shit” I didn’t say it’s the best thing out there I simply said it improves accuracy and consistency which considering the evidence I have gathered seems true. I am willing to accept otherwise given good evidence. So far no one has provided me with that. 

I want you to prove me wrong I’m not here saying I’m right you’re wrong which it seems like trigger happy is. I want to be proven wrong becaus the I will have the truth. The real factual truth. How am I accept “facts” with little evidence?? So please provide me with some 

 

[Lozart]

Im not the one saying I’m right tho but if you want me to provide evidence I shall. I’ll start with the weak evidence I have. 

But you are the one saying that people with actual practical experience are wrong based on your google fu and the anecdotal evidence of loads of blokes on the internet. You can ask how so many people can be wrong and yet we still have anti-vaxxers and people that think we live on a flat earth.

As to your other points, nobody has said that the S-hop isn't effective. What has been called into question is the longevity of that effectiveness. R-hop, Z-hop-Air-hop are all different names for basically the same thing - replacing the standard, mounded hop rubber with a larger contact patch for greater hop effect with less impingement on the BB itself. Flat hop and r-hop are by far the more common way of achieving this as they're not that hard to do and have predictable and lasting results.

For 90% of the effectiveness with about 20% of the hassle the Maple Leaf Macaron hop and Omega nub combo has a lot to offer.

 

[E21A]

Mate ? youre literally making excuses now. He shot 4/10 on target with no s hop and then 6/10 with it in the same outdoor Environment ?? youre telling me on the first 6 shots before he s hopped and the wind was None existant. How convient. 

I’m not your mate. Neither am I making excuses. I’m stating what I saw, based on the ‘evidence’ I’ve seen. Do you have a better test you can show the results of? 

Do you not think wind conditions change? 

If they really wanted to demonstrate it they should do so indoors. 

I'm not saying it doesn’t work, just not the night and day performance difference you seem to be implying it gives. Also there are better and tried/tested options that give better results and are easier to achieve. 

For 90% of the effectiveness with about 20% of the hassle the Maple Leaf Macaron hop and Omega nub combo has a lot to offer.

This

Seems a lot of fucking about for not much gain that won’t last 

 

[Adolf Hamster]

What does trigger happy have ?? Oh yes his own experience sounds compelling 

it's nice you're trying to be helpful but i'd quit now mate, you aren't going to win an argument with trigger about teching.

 

[IntelligentCelestialBeing]

it's nice you're trying to be helpful but i'd quit now mate, you aren't going to win an argument with trigger about teching.

I’m not trying to win an argument I even said I want to be proved wrong I’m simply stating his lack of evidence I dunno how many times I’ve explained this already ?

But you are the one saying that people with actual practical experience are wrong based on your google fu and the anecdotal evidence of loads of blokes on the internet. You can ask how so many people can be wrong and yet we still have anti-vaxxers and people that think we live on a flat earth.

As to your other points, nobody has said that the S-hop isn't effective. What has been called into question is the longevity of that effectiveness. R-hop, Z-hop-Air-hop are all different names for basically the same thing - replacing the standard, mounded hop rubber with a larger contact patch for greater hop effect with less impingement on the BB itself. Flat hop and r-hop are by far the more common way of achieving this as they're not that hard to do and have predictable and lasting results.

For 90% of the effectiveness with about 20% of the hassle the Maple Leaf Macaron hop and Omega nub combo has a lot to offer.

Experience isn’t everything you’re acting like experience makes you unquestionably right all the time. You can be an engineer with 30 + experience but if you’re an engineer that bases all your knowledge on experience then how are you gonna learn beyond what you see ? Scientists haven’t experienced entering a black hole yet they know what happens. They haven’t experienced significant time travel but they know how to do it. 

That is the argument of authority. Basically saying I studied science so I know more about science than you. That’s just a stupid argument

 

[Lozart]

I’m not trying to win an argument I even said I want to be proved wrong I’m simply stating his lack of evidence I dunno how many times I’ve explained this already ?

Experience isn’t everything you’re acting like experience makes you unquestionably right all the time. You can be an engineer with 30 + experience but if you’re an engineer that bases all your knowledge on experience then how are you gonna learn beyond what you see ? Scientists haven’t experienced entering a black hole yet they know what happens. They haven’t experienced significant time travel but they know how to do it. 

That is the argument of authority. Basically saying I studied science so I know more about science than you. That’s just a stupid argument

Scientists think they know what happens but until they've experienced it and received actual data it's all hypothesis. They certainly don't know how time travel works or even if it's actually possible at all!

And speaking as an actual engineer with 30+ years of experience I can honestly say that it counts for far more than you're giving it credit. Experience is only gained through doing, trial and error, test and retest. Suggesting that a theoretical physicist is more right because all his knowledge is based on what they think happens is utterly ridiculous. I say that from the position of having worked as an engineer with scientists in the MoD and the JET nuclear fusion reactor at CCFE.

The problem with your request to be proven wrong is that you have placed all your faith in the say so of people on the internet that S-hop is the answer to all our hopes and prayers and yet when other people on the internet disagree you refute their answers and demand proof! It's the very essence of a circular argument.

Anyway, I've said my piece. I hope you find what you're looking for and it turns out to be an s-hop in a Prowin body then more power to your elbow.

 

[IntelligentCelestialBeing]

Scientists think they know what happens but until they've experienced it and received actual data it's all hypothesis. They certainly don't know how time travel works or even if it's actually possible at all!

And speaking as an actual engineer with 30+ years of experience I can honestly say that it counts for far more than you're giving it credit. Experience is only gained through doing, trial and error, test and retest. Suggesting that a theoretical physicist is more right because all his knowledge is based on what they think happens is utterly ridiculous. I say that from the position of having worked as an engineer with scientists in the MoD and the JET nuclear fusion reactor at CCFE.

The problem with your request to be proven wrong is that you have placed all your faith in the say so of people on the internet that S-hop is the answer to all our hopes and prayers and yet when other people on the internet disagree you refute their answers and demand proof! It's the very essence of a circular argument.

Anyway, I've said my piece. I hope you find what you're looking for and it turns out to be an s-hop in a Prowin body then more power to your elbow.

Firstly time travel can happen it’s already been down by a billionth of a second but you can only travel forward not back. You must travel faster than the speed of light in space in order for you to travel significantly forward in time. The closer you get to the speed of light and the further you get from gravity the slower time goes for you but time goes the same rate for people on Earth there for you’re time travelling 

also there is no issuw with me wanting you to prove me wrong with evidence you’re telling me you’re gonna believe something with no evidence?? You might as well be religious 

you prove me wrong then I’m wrong simple as that. If you’re incapable of doing so then I’m either right or it’s subjective and if it’s subjective then what’s the point of this argument ? 

Don’t let emotions cloud your judgment 

lets end it here. I’m open to new ideas given good evidence which you fail to give and therefore I’ll assume you don’t have. 

Funny how how youre talking about my evidence being weak considering my evidence isn’t just scirentfic but also the result from more than one man. Same can’t be said for you. 

 

[ImTriggerHappy]

I wasn't going to waste my time replying as there is nothing more irritating than someone who knows it all without any actual experience.

S-hop or sugru-hop was a big thing a couple of years ago but it died pretty quick because the results were poor. Sugru is too soft and wears out very quickly and deforms very easily. When you push a bb through a hop unit the pressure deforms the hop rubber contact patch but  because of rubbers elasticity it rebounds back to the original shape quickly. Sugru doesn't perform anywhere near as well this means on high fps/heavy weight builds it has been known to die very quickly and on normal average everyday guns it regularly fails after only firing a few thousand rounds. It's lack of elastic properties and softness compared to any good hop rubber means it has poor results on full auto as well.

Single shot I found the accuracy comparable to r-hop but on auto it was awful with regular flyers. This is why r-hop is far superior and almost everybody who wants this sort of hop set up reverted back after trying s-hop.

I reckon if you check the dates on what you read you will find most things go back to 2016/2017.

Also engineers don't surmise our opinions we prove them. There is very little I have not used, fitted, repaired or made on an AEG so all my knowledge is proved through doing not because internet said so. As for my opinion against youtube that is probably because a lot of people on here know me either personally or through the forum and have seen my work firsthand. 

Won't be replying again as if I want to deal with airsoft tech stuff this week I will deal with the something someone is paying me for not the airsoft newb who knows more than the people who have years of experience.

Best of luck with your build and if you need help when something fails I hope you listen to someone who can help instead of being an arrogant know fuck all halfwit.