Opinions on my setup

[TommyH88]

Good morning all this is my first post, own a G&G wildhog 9” version which I have changed a few internal parts such as 16.1 gears, M100 spring, SHS/RA MOTOR, Prometheus 205mm inner barrel, 11.1 Lipo, used it a few weeks ago and it sheered all the teeth off the piston? I have replaced the piston with a metal teeth version and corrected the aoe but I’m worried it may happen again. Is the setup I’m running no good? Am I getting PME? 

looking for advice on where to go from here.

thanks 

View attachment 46237

 

[Sitting Duck]

TBH SHS HT 16tpa 30k motor on 11.1v is pushing a bit towards say 30rps

which is asking for problems on a UK spec m100 gun

I've suggested going for the moderate 25k ifrit, but didn't know you fitted 16:1

(though it isn't THAT much faster than std 18:1 as it's really like a 17.25:1 ratio)

though now be careful.....

However the state of that piston shredding all the way down the rack is some PME

Yes imho you would get PME at 30rps - well near it for sure without more work like SS etc....

BUT how that rack shredded all the way down, well it might also imply you could have got a jam in hop/barrel

that would have "plugged" the nozzle and effectively stopped or seriously slowed the piston travel on release

The piston is stuck or seriously impeded from returning, gun cycling so quick it starts to shred the later teeth so much

then shreds the other teeth along the way as piston tries to return from spring tension but all too late now

(it's fucked, no matter where it starts to shred)

I mean usually the pickup or the first few teeth contact in PME but still the piston will may attempt to smash backwards

so could tear up the rest of rack also but most damage "usually" occurs at the first half or beginning of rack than all the way down

Now is cycling quickly and/or you keep firing or burst on ETU so it's well fucked now anyway

So if you replaced with a SHS metal rack piston, it won't bind in G&G's like other boxes

but a metal rack means you have no weak spot so if it happens again you could be looking at ripping out the metal rack

or the 10 teeth on the bevel often tear off in cases of PME

(They just fly off in bits, I've done it enough myself)

Drop the 25k Ifrit in there to shoot say 24rps on 11.1v say so it won't sail so close to the PME wind so to speak

Then I would check your feeding is OK

If the bucking lips are a bit tight it can cause a misfeed/mis-chamber

if the prommy is tight and you are using shit bb's it can jam in the barrel on "egg shape" or poor quality bb's

coz if you get a poorly fed or rather poorly chambered bb it will be like plugging the nozzle/syringe and slow the piston's return

Misfeed is widely used term, an actual misfeed where it fails to slip past the nozzle is ok, the pathway is still clear

but if a bb fails to pop itself through the bucking lips - you are in trouble and risk the "plugging" in front of nozzle etc....

take a dozen bb's and the barrel/hop unit and try to pop the bb's through bucking lips

you should need light moderate pressure from a thin stick/jam rod to pop the bb through the lips to where the nub is

if you need to force it - that is a problem

A dozen bb's should pop through the bucking lips and roll down prommy after passing the nub (wind it off for testing)

If a bb gets caught in the barrel - your bb's are eggs or are shit quality

any restriction or jam in front of that nozzle will start to slow the piston on release and promote severe PME

(or increase it starting much earlier on the rack which that pistons looks shredded to absolute fuck)

I mean plastic rack pistons always look well worn - in places like the first few teeth over time

but THAT piston got shredded and it appears to be torn to shreds very early on from release (jammed bb ???)

yes it can end up like that perhaps on initial PME and drag piston back to shred a bit more

but to shred ALL THE TEETH and shred them ALL THAT MUCH looks suspect to me, hence me ask if bb's are jamming

See this clip to see what I mean about the bb push test through the lips

(don't worry too much about other stuff - but the outer bucking lips if pinched

will impeded the bb passing through to the nub and block the nozzles etc......)

a good clip on feeding/hop issues.....

 

[Iceni]

Have a close look at that piston head @Sitting Duck

Do you think the piston head might have come loose? If it was rocking that might cause a jam or slow piston, and boom there go your teeth.

The reason I say this is the piston has galling on the bottom edge where the piston joins the head, and there looks to be some galling on the head at the edges. It's also dirty on the piston body where it meets the head, Normally that would be a tight seal and crud would form a ring round where the head had been.

@TommyH88

Was the piston head still attached to the piston body, Did you threadlock the piston head on, And when you assembled it how tight was the whole head arrangement and was it sat flush?

 

 

[Sitting Duck]

Good call @Iceni....

I was looking how wrecked all the teeth were & thought the blue piston was a replace head as never seen those G&G ones before

or - https://www.guay2.com/en/product/detail-971

these are the reinforced piston heads with dun dun daahhhhhh bearings !!!!

that like to undo even if you bolt them them up as tight a fuck if you don't use thread lock as we all know

thought G&G would have still used the traditional shite heads still especially as using cheap plastic piston....

Yeah if that head was the one that came adrift them that would explain a lot why piston got stuck or slowed its return

(if the bolt loosened then it stands to reason)

I was still working on the assumption G&G was using them shit black piston heads, that I never rated for great compression

together with a 5mm solid plastic spacer and washer common in CM16's etc....

rather surprised the gun might have had an 18k motor instead of ifrit

(thought better intermediate guns used the ifrit, and some had a metal rack piston like in the HC05)

Do wish G&G would sort their stuff out a bit, but yeah that piston does look like it's come adrift

(bad show on G&G's craftsmanship - pmsl "craftsmanship", oh my that is a good one)

Yeah looks like a G&G fancy reinforced piston head and it came adrift when pushed

poor assembly by G&G without decent/enough threadlock, than a third party upgrade bit

not a fan of bearing piston heads, I just don't trust them or need them so much if bearing spring guide

but I know plenty still use them, even though they can come apart like we have seen

major failing on my part - but excellent call sir, head came adrift and stuck result in total shredding of plastic rack

so much so the final metal tooth on the rack, that small little metal has snapped right off ffs

fuck me that is a mega CRUNCH - even by my standards......

if your piston head & piston was separated when you opened up the box - then THAT was the real failure

even when major PME takes place and epoxy metal racks tear themselves out of piston

and bevels disintegrate or other shit hits the fan....

The piston head "should" have still been attached to the piston, so if you found it adrift that is what caused the mother of all failures - fuck me you deserve a prize for that shredding, especially the assassination of the poor lonesome metal tooth

(ahh bless)

 

[Iceni]

The fact it's sheared that metal tooth makes me wince a bit TBF.

If that tooth is gone it's a full gearbox inspection from the bottom up. It takes a lot of force to shear those teeth.

With that in mind your inspection of the gearbox should be done as follows:

All teeth on all gears including pinion inspected at least 3 times. And a wipe over with something very thin and showy like drain inspection dye or calligraphy ink. You are looking for cracks, And the dye will get into the cracks. So when you wipe down the gears you hope the dye has penetrated and will weep a little to show them. Failing that new gears.

The bearings all need inspecting. Make sure they run well have no lumps or bumps. If they have any knocks at all replace. Again inspect the inner and outer races of each bearing for cracks.

The shells will need a full inspection as well. Piston rails for cracks, Bearing seats, cylinder area with a detailed inspection of the front of the shells where the cylinder head sits as V2's are known to be weak here. Any problems new shells. 

Motor needs a full inspection, Check the pinion, make sure it's seated and has all the teeth and no cracks. Check the axle for warping.

It may prove cheaper to pick up a donor gearbox. AK2M4 sell an E&C v2 for £45. It's not a performance gearbox, but it will cover everything above bar the gears. Shells, Piston (full metal rack), bearings, 18:1 gears, QC spring guide. With a little modification you should be able to get the ETU into it, then just pick the gearing and motor to suit.

https://www.ak2m4.co.uk/internal-parts/gearboxes-complete/ec-complete-gearbox-qd-v2-rear

 

[TommyH88]

Yes at the time it had 16.1 gears. Thinking about it Guy I let look at it did have the hop wound right up to try get it to shoot lower FPS as was way over when I went to local site to have it chronod.

After speaking with sitting duck im going to refit the stock 18.1 G&G gears and the 25k G&G ifrit motor and leave it at that and build a better gearbox at a later date.  

As I was told to wound hop right up and fully auto a mag thru it to lower the FPS. At which point it then went boom which is when I suspect the teeth sheered and jammed up. 

I have a new cylinder, piston, Piston head, cylinder head to fit and have a couple set of new gears so all damaged parts will be replaced. Just didn’t no which configuration to fit. 

 

[Iceni]

Jeez that's some strange advice.

You can't use the hop to get past chrono unless you are right on the limit and shooting a couple of FPS over. Then you can slightly overhop to pull it back. It's not a solution to depower a gun. And mostly it's frowned upon, as when you reset the hop to normal levels your gun will be hot.

Going off what you have said you slowed the piston with a jammed hop unit. BB sealing in the bucking at the nub, A second one sealing the lips. The seal between the air nozzle and that BB in the lips then means you have nowhere for your air to go. 

The only way to depower a gun is either to cut the spring or install a new one. They cost on average £5. It's simply not worth trying other solutions, and the fact you have destroyed a good portion of the gearbox is a classic example of spending a little to save.

For an all-day, no fuss build you want to be getting the RPS to 20-25rps. Any more than that requires more attention. 

25K + 11.1v means you will probably be better served by the 18:1 gearset. Pulling an M100 spring. You could probably run a cut M110 as well but there are a few extra steps involved in doing that.

https://www.ak2m4.co.uk/internal-parts/springs/zci-aeg-spring-m100



As for your mate that gave you really bad advice. A single tube of silver glitter in his kit bag should be revenge enough.

 

[Sitting Duck]

For the record I just wish to clarify something in case anybody is confused

I did not tell him to go nutz and wind the hop on and empty a mag etc....

I mentioned the gears/motor speed issue but with the ETU he is kinda bound to run 11.1v

Just the way the post was worded it could seem I mentioned winding hop & dumping mag etc.....

which I most certainly did not - it was his colleague btw not moi

I can't stress enough for ETU owners - just use the damn thing "as is" on 11.1v

only consider to mess with stuff if/when it fucks up and still keep anything in moderation

if your gun fires at 18rps with a std 18k - live with it, a few rps won't matter

(it is the player's performance/skill rather than the gun's rof that usually wins the game)

if your gun fires 22rps with the Ifrit - great but again leave it alone

happy shooting all

 

[ProPain87]

if your gun fires at 18rps with a std 18k - live with it, a few rps won't matter

(it is the player's performance/skill rather than the gun's rof that usually wins the game)

if your gun fires 22rps with the Ifrit - great but again leave it alone

But where is the fun in that for us tinkers ?

glad to see you back, always find your posts very informative ? long but informative ?

 

[Sitting Duck]

But where is the fun in that for us tinkers ?

glad to see you back, always find your posts very informative ? long but informative ?

Not really back, think I've hung up my guns - as duck jnr is at uni

but my youngest might take it up in a year or two I hope to get me back to being shot to shit by other little sods

just if somebody messages me or I got some time spare, I'll stick my head in now n then

just to see how you guys are and what "fun" you have been having with these bastid toy guns

 

[TommyH88]

For the record I just wish to clarify something in case anybody is confused

I did not tell him to go nutz and wind the hop on and empty a mag etc....

I mentioned the gears/motor speed issue but with the ETU he is kinda bound to run 11.1v

Just the way the post was worded it could seem I mentioned winding hop & dumping mag etc.....

which I most certainly did not - it was his colleague btw not moi

I can't stress enough for ETU owners - just use the damn thing "as is" on 11.1v

only consider to mess with stuff if/when it fucks up and still keep anything in moderation

if your gun fires at 18rps with a std 18k - live with it, a few rps won't matter

(it is the player's performance/skill rather than the gun's rof that usually wins the game)

if your gun fires 22rps with the Ifrit - great but again leave it alone

happy shooting all

Nah I didn’t mean it to sound like you told me to do that sorry if it came across like that. It was another guy who was at my local site when I was there and it wasn’t going through chrono which I was going to accept but he then took my gun and tried which I mentioned above

Jeez that's some strange advice.

You can't use the hop to get past chrono unless you are right on the limit and shooting a couple of FPS over. Then you can slightly overhop to pull it back. It's not a solution to depower a gun. And mostly it's frowned upon, as when you reset the hop to normal levels your gun will be hot.

Going off what you have said you slowed the piston with a jammed hop unit. BB sealing in the bucking at the nub, A second one sealing the lips. The seal between the air nozzle and that BB in the lips then means you have nowhere for your air to go. 

The only way to depower a gun is either to cut the spring or install a new one. They cost on average £5. It's simply not worth trying other solutions, and the fact you have destroyed a good portion of the gearbox is a classic example of spending a little to save.

For an all-day, no fuss build you want to be getting the RPS to 20-25rps. Any more than that requires more attention. 

25K + 11.1v means you will probably be better served by the 18:1 gearset. Pulling an M100 spring. You could probably run a cut M110 as well but there are a few extra steps involved in doing that.

https://www.ak2m4.co.uk/internal-parts/springs/zci-aeg-spring-m100



As for your mate that gave you really bad advice. A single tube of silver glitter in his kit bag should be revenge enough.

Yea that’s what I’m going to fit back in the gun, oem G&G 18.1 gears, 25k G&G ifrit motor, M100 spring, aoe corrected  and leave it as is. 

 

[TommyH88]

Put in the M100 spring, G&G ifrit motor, 18.1 gears and was doing 300 FPS on .20. Put in the m110 and it’s going 340 so going to leave it on that setup. Is there any pre engagement worry’s with a 110 spring?