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New Game Scenarios

For a ‘more interesting’ scenario it takes the game author to have ideas rather than objects that enhance the game 

When I began (in paintball) I began with basic rental games under which the site staff would run basic missions but apply some tweaks here and there for the returning customers.  I looked around and was introduced to scenario paintball, this was in the heyday of UK scenario just in time for a boom in games across the country run by players for players.  Most scenarios would have ‘special’ props which could be a few pipes and a circuit board to be found and ‘assembled’ into a super weapon 

As a team we decided that we could do it as well as the others and put on our own games, we quickly got into building working props in preference to pretend props.

Flashing lights, sounds etc just made a prettier prop than slotting some pipes together or glow sticks in water bottles with coloured water but still needed an overall scenario that had to be simple enough to understand, complex enough to gather some interest and to have different angles for different players wants - there are always those who want to just shoot, those who want to search in bushes and those who want to solve a puzzle, and those are the hard core scenarioists LARPing with guns

We are known for our events and devices, but our ‘best’ loved ones perform an actual function which contributes to enhancing the game experience - for example a Hollywood style bomb device that triggers remote pyro, we used one in a game letting teams acquire the device and set it against other teams in a 3 faction game - our tech guy was rushing back and forth as teams would set alliances to capture a key location at a key time for points and then double cross each other by settting the device and detonating to ‘destroy’ the location and eliminate their temporary allies for bonus points 

Airsoft has a loose match with scenario paintball, but the typical game on site is a crossover between rental, site regular, scenarioist/LARPist and cosplayer just dressing up 

When we began to run games for airsoft a few players said they wanted more complex games than the basic site ones, but then many quickly disliked the full mission - they talked a good game but just wanted a dressed up gun fight 

Real time tracking is a possibility, but introduces technological problems of making sure it works and is reliable.  
Our tech guy won’t touch it with a barge pole, they don’t meet his perfectionist standards

We’ll plant tracking devices in some devices / props but they are to aid us in knowing where they are 

Theres also a recent video by another tech guy in a different industry - he demonstrates using a real time tracker, but as he goes on the reliability gets worse and worse giving false readings which he begins to resolve with error correction but they repeat inconsistently and give false positioning 

A commercial GPS device will do the job, as long as you can get good enough signals and can pass that information on to a receiver.  
 

If there’s a device to be made and sold then there’s a limited customer base (sites / event organisers) and those customers are limited down to those who can apply a device into a good game, then slice them right down to those who don’t have a geek on call who can make something good enough putting their time into it for the fun of solving a problem and making some code (plus copy / paste from free online demos with a little tweak)

I spent some of lockdown one working out the hidden menus from an undocumented commercial ‘device’ and building a series of custom devices plus my own code drawing from a a few free online examples and my rewriting to my own game plans.
 
I understand what you are saying and wish to expand but until I have a working model accompanied by a patent or patents, I can't say more. I can say the kit would consist of target & tracker units, be accurate within 2 meters and cost less than you might think.

And I'm sure you will be more successful than all the people who have "applied for patents" on all their airsoft innovations that require everybody to buy one in order for everybody to enjoy one.

Don't PM me, we're not friends. You're just another fantasist.
I PM'd you to take this debate away from the thread. I'm not trying to push anything on anyone. My idea is aimed towards site owners, not players.

 
Sorry, I thought I had answered that question. I am not trying to flog anything. I have an idea and the means to produce a version for testing. I can, & will apply for patents.


no offence (the standard opener to a comment that will then be offensive), but you do know that airsoft is a sport renowned for companies not giving a stuff about patents?

it started with everyone ripping off marui and it keeps happening, frankly i'd be amazed if any remotely successful product managed to not get ripped off no matter how many patents they had.

Airsoft has a loose match with scenario paintball, but the typical game on site is a crossover between rental, site regular, scenarioist/LARPist and cosplayer just dressing up 

When we began to run games for airsoft a few players said they wanted more complex games than the basic site ones, but then many quickly disliked the full mission - they talked a good game but just wanted a dressed up gun fight 


this is the heart of the problem.

outside of specific themed events, you're dealing with the issue that any game rule has to be something that works for everyone, from dave the discount SEAL team six sergeant 2nd class to johnny's birthday party rental group.

even regulars who are game to try something new with some different scenarios/rulesets will happily listen to the breif, go out aiming to stick to the intended rules/theme the best they can and proceed to forget them about 30 minutes into the game leading to things like "do i stand here and wait for the medic or go to respawn?" or "is that area inbounds or not?" or "which zone are we falling back to?", i know because i'm afraid to admit that i'm very much that player- keen to have a crack at the more interesting ideas but scatterbrained.

meanwhile you'll get the "stuff it, imma shoot anyone that isn't me/my mates" approach, which is why literally every attempt at airsoft ttt has turned into a free for all death match once everyone that doesn't take that approach (ie not shooting everyone they see on sight regardless of what role they were given) has been eliminated in the first 10 seconds.

 
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I think the topic escalated quickly from “what do you guys think about this new game scenario” to a cynical demotivationfest. @Rogerborg let the guy have his dreams, you never know what could come out of it, maybe he is a brilliant geek who’s going to take airsoft industry by storm? I understand your point about shilling some off-shoot devices for no reason, however from what I gather that's not going to be the case.

Coming back to scenarios, I agree with @Adolf Hamster, it’s nigh impossible to cater to absolutely every type of player. However, that’s where special events come to play. I’m not talking about your run-of-the-mill mil-sim (excuse the pun) or reenactments, but rather something that is above your typical skirmish packaged in a full day campaign, yet not as hardcore to require a week of prep, BDUs, MREs, or accurate gear/RIFs to boot.

While reviewing and adding various sites to PlayAirsoft, I remember there was one site that attempted to do that. They had three distinctive types of events, one for all, one for proper mil-sim, and one that was a cross between the two mentioned above. They specifically state what sort of expectations players attending a given event should have. I’ll try to dig up which one it was.

Having clear expectations about how the games are run is half the decision points for a lot of players. That’s from the data I’ve gathered last year. However, I wonder if anyone has attempted to write their game scenarios for this weird type of airsoft-swashbuckler-not-hardcore-enough-for-milsim? I’d love to dig through that, and maybe publish some on PlayAirsoft for everyone to see.

I understand most games are typical run-and-gun, but maybe if we put our cynicism and jadedness aside we could let at least some folks have fun LARPing hard (or hardly LARPing).

 
throbbing.thirsty.delusional
I have you measured up Rogerborg. 

You are so insignificant in your real life, you TRY to be a dominating force online. The trouble with that is that you have an online footprint. Your online footprint belongs to a who? I actively mask my OFP, you simply don't have one. Next time you think being a "keyboard warrior" is a good idea and saying "don't PM, we're not friends" consider this. YOU HAVE NO FRIENDS. Good day, good night, good evening and fuck off.

 
@Rogerborg let the guy have his dreams


He can dream, and I can roll my eyes at his dreams.

I hope to be wrong, and to super-duper-apologise when I see a new product that can be bought from stock, from an actual retailer, with a warranty, that has a compelling feature list at an affordable price.

It can happen, like tracer units.

However, it's been my experience that ideas-guys floating vague "How do you do, fellow airsoft kids?" oblique narratives aren't on the success track.

That applies double if the only thing standing between assured success and flouncing is some experienced cynical grumpy old bugger on the intartwebs.

 
I have you measured up Rogerborg. 

You are so insignificant in your real life, you TRY to be a dominating force online. The trouble with that is that you have an online footprint. Your online footprint belongs to a who? I actively mask my OFP, you simply don't have one. Next time you think being a "keyboard warrior" is a good idea and saying "don't PM, we're not friends" consider this. YOU HAVE NO FRIENDS. Good day, good night, good evening and fuck off.
Oh. Deary. Me. 

 
I think if marketed towards site owners it could actually have legs. Capture the VIP games do quite often work and if you had a game where each team has a few nominated players carrying trackers that is a interesting spin. I say this because one style of vip game that I have seen work very well is where each team has only certain players that can actually capture the vip and that always leads to small groups of people congregating round their teams own personalities and actually going for the objective. Add trackers being carried by those nominated players you could actually have a game mode that could be quite successful.

 
Coming back to scenarios, I agree with @Adolf Hamster, it’s nigh impossible to cater to absolutely every type of player. However, that’s where special events come to play. I’m not talking about your run-of-the-mill mil-sim (excuse the pun) or reenactments, but rather something that is above your typical skirmish packaged in a full day campaign, yet not as hardcore to require a week of prep, BDUs, MREs, or accurate gear/RIFs to boot.


i've heard folks saying good things about filmsim as something that bridges the gap between the full-on milsim style and the chaos that is a regular walk-on.

never been to such an event so i can't really comment one way or the other, but i'll admit it'd be nice to have a themed event where you can indulge in a little more immersion than a normal day, but maybe not to the point of needing a 20 page document published so you know the rules (although maybe a 1 page document, printed on a0 size and nailed to a board at the site entrance would be good, even for standard games)

I think the topic escalated quickly from “what do you guys think about this new game scenario” to a cynical demotivationfest. @Rogerborg let the guy have his dreams, you never know what could come out of it, maybe he is a brilliant geek who’s going to take airsoft industry by storm? I understand your point about shilling some off-shoot devices for no reason, however from what I gather that's not going to be the case.


+1, i'm all for a bit of healthy skepticism (having joined this place being the optimist who thought he could revolutionize the sport and knowing exactly where that went.....), but this does seem to have escalated a bit beyond that.

 
He can dream, and I can roll my eyes at his dreams.

I hope to be wrong, and to super-duper-apologise when I see a new product that can be bought from stock, from an actual retailer, with a warranty, that has a compelling feature list at an affordable price.

It can happen, like tracer units.

However, it's been my experience that ideas-guys floating vague "How do you do, fellow airsoft kids?" oblique narratives aren't on the success track.

That applies double if the only thing standing between assured success and flouncing is some experienced cynical grumpy old bugger on the intartwebs.
I have asked if an idea has the potential to be viable on airsoft fields.

My idea is, as correctly quoted, pointed out & documented, aimed at site owners.

To throw some backing & credentials in the mix, I am the production supervisor at https://www.argonelectronics.com/

Check the link before spouting nonsense.

Don't block someone before discussing everything.

View attachment 84599

 
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this does seem to have escalated a bit beyond that


Not that I'd noticed, I'd already blocked the bloke before he flipped the table.

iu


OP is just flexing. He'll either deliver a product, or he won't.  Either way, he's not going to fill my face in, or see me in court.  I'll be astonished if he files so much as a design patent, let alone a functional one. We can enjoy the brief frisson of drama while it lasts though, that's what the intarwebs are for.

If you're going to re-invent something that's already been released and failed, something needs to be different, either with the features, the price or the market.

It is a fair point that airsoft has come on since 2009 - more folk running comms, tracers, even NODS, and sites prepared to invest in props and things like AttackSense. 

I've had a look at the spec of the MT1268 and it looks reasonable enough: GPS for position[*], LPD433 (at an unspecified power) for unit-to-unit communication.  However, that limits it to outside use, and liable to interference from (e.g.) folk flying drones. If that's 10mW LPD then a 500m range would be very optimistic, and essentially line-of-sight, thereby obviating much of the point of it as a find-the-McGuffin tracker.  Consider that PMR runs at 500mW.

The kicker was the price: $250 per non-water-resistant unit, i.e. $500 before you can do anything with them on a site.  It's no wonder it vanished without trace.

Given the tiny potential market, I'd sack off the idea of dedicated hardware and look at doing it as a phone app instead. There are already "family tracker" style apps that seem to fit the bill, and it wouldn't be super hard to roll your own.  The issue would be sharing phone locations fast enough to be useful: you'd need a location with decent mobile data coverage, and then you'd have to provide hosting and "matchmaking" services, getting updates out to connected devices quickly enough, and with enough location resolution, to be useful.  There's also the obvious risk of getting your screen shot out in-game.

You could give the app away and charge a subscription for hosting.  Doing it the other way around, a paid app and free service, would be a risky buy as it would likely collapse as soon as sales plateau.

It's not a terrible idea, it might actually work.  But anybody can have an idea.  Following through to market - and long term support, once the orders dry up - is the tricky part.

[*]You can forget the idea of using any sort of signal strength for estimating even distance, let alone direction. It comes up every so often, the NHS track-and-trace app tries it over bluetooth with pretty poor results. I was involved in a failed project to try and track phone locations (and thus crowd density) in stadia and concert venues using bluetooth and wifi discovery signals with multiple receivers at known locations.  We never got anything close to usable fidelity, even with a short range line-of-sight setup, let alone with walls and such in the way.

 
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Not that I'd noticed, I'd already blocked the bloke before he flipped the table.



OP is just flexing. He'll either deliver a product, or he won't.  Either way, he's not going to fill my face in, or see me in court.  I'll be astonished if he files so much as a design patent, let alone a functional one. We can enjoy the brief frisson of drama while it lasts though, that's what the intarwebs are for.

If you're going to re-invent something that's already been released and failed, something needs to be different, either with the features, the price or the market.

It is a fair point that airsoft has come on since 2009 - more folk running comms, tracers, even NODS, and sites prepared to invest in props and things like AttackSense. 

I've had a look at the spec of the MT1268 and it looks reasonable enough: GPS for position[*], LPD433 (at an unspecified power) for unit-to-unit communication.  However, that limits it to outside use, and liable to interference from (e.g.) folk flying drones. If that's 10mW LPD then a 500m range would be very optimistic, and essentially line-of-sight, thereby obviating much of the point of it as a find-the-McGuffin tracker.  Consider that PMR runs at 500mW.

The kicker was the price: $250 per non-water-resistant unit, i.e. $500 before you can do anything with them on a site.  It's no wonder it vanished without trace.

Given the tiny potential market, I'd sack off the idea of dedicated hardware and look at doing it as a phone app instead. There are already "family tracker" style apps that seem to fit the bill, and it wouldn't be super hard to roll your own.  The issue would be sharing phone locations fast enough to be useful: you'd need a location with decent mobile data coverage, and then you'd have to provide hosting and "matchmaking" services, getting updates out to connected devices quickly enough, and with enough location resolution, to be useful.  There's also the obvious risk of getting your screen shot out in-game.

You could give the app away and charge a subscription for hosting.  Doing it the other way around, a paid app and free service, would be a risky buy as it would likely collapse as soon as sales plateau.

It's not a terrible idea, it might actually work.  But anybody can have an idea.  Following through to market - and long term support, once the orders dry up - is the tricky part.

[*]You can forget the idea of using any sort of signal strength for estimating even distance, let alone direction. It comes up every so often, the NHS track-and-trace app tries it over bluetooth with pretty poor results. I was involved in a failed project to try and track phone locations (and thus crowd density) in stadia and concert venues using bluetooth and wifi discovery signals with multiple receivers at known locations.  We never got anything close to usable fidelity, even with a short range line-of-sight setup, let alone with walls and such in the way.
Didn't desert fox events already do the mobile app thing? It looked pretty cool, especially for larger events but I know they did come across issues with it. 

 
Didn't desert fox events already do the mobile app thing? It looked pretty cool, especially for larger events but I know they did come across issues with it. 


Doubtless so, there are few new ideas out there, and doing it as a phone app seems pretty obvious.

Doing it as a site feature sounds great in principle, but in practice how many times have you seen complicated games simplified down during play when the site or marshal team haven't figured out the technology, or can't get it working, or it craps out mid game?

And I stick to my point that if you hand out a couple of McGuffin Trackers that they'll doubtless go to the Marshal's Mates and most of the players won't even get a sniff of them, or particularly care that they're meant to be doing much beyond slinging plastic in yonder general direction.

 
No I wouldn't be interested. It seems every couple of years someone makes a big announcement about a prop which they claim will revolutionise airsoft and fuck all happens, this sounds exactly like that. If you've you've really been involved in the game for a decade you'd know that

Also your attitude means I wouldn't be interested even if it was the best product ever, you've been told by several people here that it won't work, and rather than accepting it you've decided to throw your toys out of the pram like a toddler 

 
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I think the topic escalated quickly from “what do you guys think about this new game scenario” to a cynical demotivationfest. @Rogerborg let the guy have his dreams, you never know what could come out of it, maybe he is a brilliant geek who’s going to take airsoft industry by storm? I understand your point about shilling some off-shoot devices for no reason, however from what I gather that's not going to be the case.
Yeah extremely common on AFUK, I'm sure there's a kill tally for these sort of threads on some cunt's bedpost.

In any case, my advice for @StumpyOG

- Don't try to match other people's attitudes, I was liking your posts until you started rolling around in the same pig shit as the oinkers arguing with you

- "Build it, and they will come". Most products or solutions that actually have staying power, and get people interested, are ones that have a basic prototype or validation of the idea in place. I.e. OhShiBoom, or @shadowfacex's "PlayAirsoft" website.

Asking people if they like an idea, as if this is a focus group, is not an effective means to validate because you'll half get people who just enjoy torpedoing your hopes and dreams and the other half just murmur "hmm, yes, sounds cool".

True validation is to build the product, as barebones as you like, and get it in operation at a site somewhere. All you need to know is: Could people understand and use it; did they enjoy using it. After that it's a solid sign that you've struck gold and can continue to iterate on the idea.

The prototype doesn't even have to be the final implementation method either. That is, you could easily test the _idea_ pretty easily, here's how I'd do it:

- Give each team's 1IC / Commander / etc. an iPhone

- Put two Apple AirTags into a backpack, give that to the VIP Apple AirTag

- Tell them to crack on, have fun, and ask players after the game whether they enjoyed the change of pace.

That way you can actually be sure if this is an avenue worth pursuing, at the most basic level.

 
At the risk of being called a horrible, dream dashing, negative cynic the idea you are talking about has been part of the future soldier programs for years. It’s never come to fruition and more importantly has therefore not been repeatedly rendered obsolete by newer, better versions to allow it to eventually be released to the civilian market (see gps and night vision as examples). 
If you can genuinely make this product work then considering it as airsoft targeted (re-microscopic participant numbers) and the belief that you can protect your product in the face of Chinese clones no matter how  much better (see Odin) makes me question your sanity and probably goes a long way to you receiving the level of incredulity you have experienced on this forum. 

but then

“I have spread my dreams under your feet;

Tread softly because you tread on my dreams”

 
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At the risk of being called a horrible, dream dashing, negative cynic the idea you are talking about has been part of the future soldier programs for years. It’s never come to fruition and more importantly has therefore not been repeatedly rendered obsolete by newer, better versions to allow it to eventually be released to the civilian market (see gps and night vision as examples). 
If you can genuinely make this product work then considering it as airsoft targeted (re-microscopic participant numbers) and the belief that you can protect your product in the face of Chinese clones no matter how  much better (see Odin) makes me question your sanity and probably goes a long way to you receiving the level of incredulity you have experienced on this forum. 

but then

“I have spread my dreams under your feet;

Tread softly because you tread on my dreams”
Don’t worry - I have been called out for breaking his dreams in our team chat

View attachment 84703

We had some discussion by PM and the questions he asked me about our devices that I had referred to earlier in the thread.

Without him actually telling me what his specific plans were, we discussed some types of features.  We have those in our devices, but do not have live tracking (at least not as a player feature)

On that basis, and from our conversation he isn’t pursuing his project, as it appears that his ideas have already been produced (and may also be in the public domain under open source & project demos etc)

I did add a comment that I’ve pissed on his parade, but that doesn’t mean he won’t have an outlet for his idea, nor that he won’t come up with a product that people will want to buy - just bringing down some expectations that the customer base will be small such as taking a first edition to his local site etc 

…………

On the matter of ‘future soldier’ I was in on the fringe of an boring element of that programme, important but boring.

Had a previous poster about his super new idea timed things differently then the Brigadier that he said he was speaking with would have spoken to my Brigadier and I’d have ended up in the discussions if they went anywhere.

As an aside for that, at some  Future Soldier programme happenings they would show us two displays side bush side - “Future soldier” and “eBay soldier”, not only the example of big money defence investment filtering down to the private market cheaply, but cheap and cheerful tech rushing on ahead with cheap disposable ‘good enough’ technology giving the capability to the poorest countries armed forces or terrorist/Irregulars today whilst technological nations were floating around prototypes and concepts

 
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