looking for first gun ideas

[TheGrover]

Hey guys, im hoping some experienced airsoftere can lend me some ideas for my first gun based on some requirements i have.

Budget: £400 (including necessary upgrades)

Intended use: must be accurrate for outdoor use using single fire, and compact to use in CQB games. A bullpup platform is ideal (and i prefer the bullpup method anyway)

Other criteria:

-the weapon must accept m4 style mags

-the weapon must not be an m4/m16 or similar

-total weapon weight (with mid-cap and battery) must not exceed 3kg (a little variance is allowed here)

-build quality is important, a 400 pound gun needs to feel and perform like its worth

-the weapon must have rail space for at least an optic

-ideally, be easily servicable/upgradable (eg. MOEFET, new barrel/hop, motor etc.)

I have already had a look at the Ares TAR-21 as one option and thr APS UAR as a bit of an upgrade project. Can either of these be reccomended to a newbie? And of course, alternates are always welcome.

Thanks guys

TheGrover

 

[Chock]

Although neither are bull pup configurations, the FN SCAR-L and H&K 416 seem like obvious candidates. Both were conceived as M4 replacements/supplementary spec op weapons), so both were designed to use NATO STANAG magazines (i.e. M16/M4-type magazines for the 5.56x45mm NATO round). Thus any airsoft SCAR-L or H&K 416 would be able to use M4 magazines (although obviously either AEG or GBB dependent on the weapon type). Be sure to look only at SCAR-L variants if you consider the SCAR, the SCAR-L is 5.56mm, so it uses STANAG (M-16/M4-type mags), the SCAR-H is the heavier calibre variant, so it uses NATO 7.62x51mm ammunition (i.e. it won't be using M4/M16 mags).

The APS UAR is interesting and it does have some nice features, but to be brutally honest it feels (and looks) like a cheap and nasty plastic rifle when you actually see and hold it. Moreover, I would be wary of a unique design when it comes to intending it to be an upgrade project, as - being a unique design - it is likely to not have a vast array of custom parts available for it which would fit without modification, although if you are happy with DIY and have plenty of tools, then that would not be an issue, and it will be compatible (internally) with a lot of bits and pieces.

Here's a decent H&K 416 that's inside your budget, is pre-upgraded with a few bits and bobs, such as a mosfet, high torque motor, tight bore barrel and improved wiring, and has rails, is metal, and is below 3kg in weight. It's not a bull pup, but then again, the barrel length advantage of a bull pup on a real firearm is irrelevant on an airsoft weapon, since barrel length has a negligible effect on the muzzle velocity, stability, range and accuracy of an airsoft weapon:

http://www.swindonairsoft.co.uk/pc/G-G-TR4-18-GEN3-Mosfet-p480.htm

As far as the SCAR-L is concerned, most of them will be a tad over your 3Kg weight preference, but there are a lot of them available from different makers and that gives you plenty of leeway on pricing and features. Here's a few of them:

If you can stretch to another 75 notes, then the best SCAR-L would be this one:

http://www.fire-support.co.uk/product/marui-recoil-scarl-tan-airsoft-gun-ebb-aeg

Staying inside your budget (by a mere 5 pence), is this one:

http://www.sharpshooting.co.uk/airsoft-rifles-bb/softair/fn-scar-l-fn-herstal-scar-black/flypage.tpl.html

or this one (which is a mere 1 pence inside your budget, although out of the box it will be too hot for most UK airsoft sites, but they can downgrade it for you ):

http://www.patrolbase.co.uk/airsoft/gandg-armament-scar-l-black.htm#.VDZX_Euln8s

 

[Lozart]

Interesting set of requirements from a newbie! Certainly sounds like you know what you want. What has driven you to this budget/spec?

I'd say have a look at an ICS L85 http://www.patrolbase.co.uk/airsoft-bulpup-guns/ics-l85-a2.htm#.VDZeyvldWSo

Not sure on weight but it's a bullpup, takes pretty standard internal parts, uses STANAG (M4 style) magazines and it's £100 under budget.

The TAR21s all have issues to some degree or another and the UAR is like hens teeth and apparently (I've never held one so I can't say for sure) feels very plasticky and cheap.

 

[BBrotherwood]

G&G F2000? Looks like a solid weapon and is probably easy to use then an L85 which is a bit of a pig to move around quickly until you start playing with a RIS.

 

[Monty]

Why not get a cheaper gun to upgrade?

 

[Lozart]

G&G F2000? Looks like a solid weapon and is probably easy to use then an L85 which is a bit of a pig to move around quickly until you start playing with a RIS.

Click to shrink...

The F2000 is a big old lump of a gun! Nice but not smaller or easier to manage than any other rifle sized bullpup.

Maybe a P90? Small, light, maneuverable, accurate. G&G do a nice one as do TM.

 

[TheGrover]

Ill take a look at the scar, it might well be what im after. I dont really prefer the bullpup platform for a great accurrate weapon (i know the barrel length is negligible once you get above about 250 or 300mm), but they are usually more compact than comparable traditional platforms (great for CQB inside buildings).

I got the criteria from where i plan on playing. The CQB requirements come from Anzio camp, a disused MOD (or similar) training facility. Lots of fightng indoors to control the structures, and some very long range fighting as well. First and Only (the game operators) hire out G36c's which are about 2.5kg, and those feel like just the right weight to be carrying round all day. And im not a big fan of the m4 family because everyone and their mother seems to have one or two (and i understand why), but they just arent for me.

Does anyone here own an Ares gun or an APS? What kind of quality (internal and external) can you expect? I had never heard anything bad about the Ares TAR-21 until i asked at a shop and the chap there said that Ares tend to make guns for cosplay and re-enactment, not necessarily good airsoft guns, but i think this may bean old impression of Star or a young Ares brand

 

[TheGrover]

Why not get a cheaper gun to upgrade?

Click to shrink...

As long as the base gun and upgrade parts are within budget, i dont mind working a little bit, but my tool selection is a little limited at the moment, and to be quite honest, i dont know where to start j

 

[Chock]

Yup, the G36 would not be a bad choice, suitable for CQB and longer ranged stuff (except in real life, where it's apparently prone to overheating which makes it rubbish at anything past 100 metres when using sustained fire). Many airsoft sites favour the Jing Gong (JG) G36C, which can be had for about 150 quid new, although you can find ex-hire ones for about 50 quid if you look about. That's because they come with a high capacity mag which can take about 500 BBs, so the hire sites don't have to worry about handing out mags or showing people how to load new mags into them, and they are light and fairly tough too. And unlike the real G36, an airsoft G36 can cheerfully be fired all day long with the stock folded away, making them quite a cool CQB weapon able to fit into tight spaces. Firing the real G36 with the stock folded, whilst possible, is not recommended as it does apparently eventually cause damage to it, which is worth noting if you like looking 'realistic'.

 

[BrightCandle]

If its got to be a bullpup then your list is kind of short:

- S&T Professional (don't even bother with the explorer) Tar 21 or the Ares Tar 21. Ares has issues with its mag release, S&T is a mid price gun externals show the seams and internals are OK but not fantastic (got mine working now, gearbox jam was my fault). Comes in shorter version as well as full length (which is a 509mm barrel)

- G&G F2000 - Decent as far as I know, but big and heavy and bulky for a bullpup.

- Magpul PDR-C - doesn't do semi well due to it all being on the trigger, but definitely short and decent for CQB.

- G&G L85A2 or the shorter version + a few different manufacturers - not heard too much good or bad on them really. Our resident youtuber likes SA80's in gas but I don't think he owns any AEGs.

I don't really know of anything else that meets the criteria.

Bare in mind all the bullpups have some amount of custom parts in them just due to their shape. By not being an M4 they are not as upgradeable. The S&T tar 21 for example uses Type 2 gears, cylinder, piston, nozzle, a short type motor which are all standard enough. But its got a shorter spring which means your clipping anything you put into it, you might need to shave off a bit on the cylinders as well and the main problem is a custom plastic hop unit that no one makes a replacement for. The gearbox is a totally custom shape and its a pain in the backside to get out, its just horrible to take this gun apart, I am dreading it. I suspect you will find the same list in a lot of these other bullpups when you get into the guts of their internals, you need to find some strip downs of the others and check what is inside them. In essence if its not an M4 its not as upgradeable. You have to choose between upgrade ability and the format I am afraid, if upgrades and super high quality is your thing then an M4 is the right gun for you even if its not ideal length (a CQB or CQC model can be pretty short all be it compromising to 293mm inner barrel) , if on the other hand you can compromise a few upgrade parts then you can get on with one of the bullpups and get a 400mm+ inner barrel. I suspect the upgrades on a short upgrade inner barrel will have better accuracy and consistency than the partial upgrades on a bullpup.

 

[TheGrover]

Ive been having another look at the L85 option, and although its a full kilo over my desired weight, i think i may just have to man up and buy the big boy's toy

My plan is to stretch my budget a little, buying an ICS L85A2 carbine version, because 410mm of inner barrel is enough, 500mm+ on an AR is true overkill for airsoft, then swap out the handguard for an RIS (either a real DD one with a conversion kit or a cheap knock-off, so long as its metal) with a battery box to run with a normal mini battery, i saw a nice one with an integrated laser which would be great for those dark CQB engagements.

has anyone had any experience with an L85 carbine version? is it possible to fit the DD RIS system around the shorter barrel without butchering some bits?

Thanks

 

[Ian_Gere]

Our resident ICS L85A2 expert is Airsoft_Ed - his was a true thing of beauty. Personally I'm not really into bullpups and I'm more of a Rus-softer / OpFor type of bloke, so AK's and other Russian/Eastern European guns form most of my collection... but I want an ICS L85A2 anyway and I will buy one sometime within the next 6 months, simply because they are one of the best AEG's available. I'm pretty sure you'll not be able to put a DD rail on a carbine length one without butchering it though.

For that money you could also look into getting a Real Sword Type 97 - although the real steel is a Chinese weapon, it uses STANAG mags (because the Type 97 is the export version of the Type 95, which is chambered for a custom Chinese round). It is lighter than the ICS L85A2 because the real gun is lighter and RS have faithfully reproduced the original weight.

You could always fit a magwell converter to a G36C so it will take STANAG mags - they are quite popular so cost between £10-20-ish. If you're not convinced by the G36C stock, you can replace it with a "Variant" adjustable stock (as seen on the G36KV) and, depending on the make of that stock, you can also rewire it to take a battery inside the rectangular cross section tube (a mahoosive battery if running for a whole weekend event on a single charge is something that might interest you) which is a big advantage over the small space available in the handguard (unless you buy an upgrade plus size handguard specifically tailored to allow for a bigger battery).

Obviously this is personal, but unless you want to look a bit 'praying mantis' stylee with your arms folded up against your body, I'd avoid the likes of the P90 and F2000 and, of course, there's also the fact that both are among the top 5 fugliest guns going.

As for pulling the whole thing in under £400 including upgrades, it depends upon the upgrades - you can fit a perfectly decent AB MOSFET for £20, but there are some which cost £90 or more. "Necessary" is subjective, not just depending on the gun chosen but what you want from it. I see you've already joined the 'barrel-length-doesn't-matter' faction, but there is a reason why long PDI barrels remain in production despite their cost. As a general rule an H-nub will improve the accuracy of an AEG, but not all hop units can take them - a similar effect is achieved by a PDI "W Hold" hop rubber (and CYMA stock hop rubbers).

If you decide that your budget is best spent on a cheap gun and expensive upgrades, to achieve accuracy you need consistency of power through a good air seal and stability of back spin in flight, which is achieved through evenly applied hop up and a good quality inner barrel surface. Depending upon the base gun it may not be particularly useful to replace all of them, but the parts to consider first are:

Piston Head

Piston Head O-Ring

Grease

Air Seal Nozzle

Hop Up Chamber

Hop Up Bucking (Rubber)

Nub

Inner Barrel

and there are a few bodge-mods/procedures which can also help.

Bear in mind however that, although you think you know what you want, which sounds like DMR performance from a CQB platform (and who doesn't?) once your skirmish style develops, some aspects of your gun's performance will become more important to you than others. Your best bet then for a first gun is to choose one which is good out of the box and skirmish it a while before you go spending money on upgrades which may very well ultimately prove to have been a waste of money (when you decide that actually you want 'X feature' which means discarding 'Y upgrade' you already have in favour of 'Z parts' to make X work).

Don't buy a Tar-21. If you do your experience of airsofting is going to begin with frequent frustration. In fact, don't buy an Ares either. While saying all of their internals are shit is an unfair generalisation, there are enough cases where it's true that you're better off not taking the chance for a 1st AEG.

 

[TheGrover]

Nice to know about the TARs, thanks.

And i think ive just about decided on an L85 now, unless i try one some time before i get UKARA and find it doesnt suit me ergonomically.

My initial plan is to buy the ICS L85A2 with a rail converter for my G and P tube sight (sorry ed) and swap the 6.08 barrel for a good tightbore. That should be just within budget, and i can add the DD rail later if i find i need the rail space, and a 'FET later on if i feel the gun could use one.

I still do want to try some more guns before i buy anything though, especially an l85 to feel just how heavy it is, and ive got between now and December to change my mind if i find one somewhere that suits me well.

And who doesnt want a laser accurrate CQB gun at 20 rps with an effective range of 200m for less than 400 quid? If you do find any, save me two

 

[Chock]

Bear in mind however that, although you think you know what you want, which sounds like DMR performance from a CQB platform (and who doesn't?) once your skirmish style develops, some aspects of your gun's performance will become more important to you than others. Your best bet then for a first gun is to choose one which is good out of the box and skirmish it a while before you go spending money on upgrades which may very well ultimately prove to have been a waste of money (when you decide that actually you want 'X feature' which means discarding 'Y upgrade' you already have in favour of 'Z parts' to make X work).

Click to shrink...

Grover, the above quote from Ian is some of the best advice you will find on this thread. You will discover your own 'style' based on experiences at skirmishes, and you may be surprised by what that style eventually turns out to be. After all, it would be a shame if you spent 400 quid on a gun which offered pinpoint accuracy, only to find after a few skirmishes, that what you'd really like to be doing is giving the bad guys a quick burst to keep their heads down, followed by lobbing a grenade at them, meaning you could have got a 150 quid carbine or SMG and had 250 quid left over to spend on grenades. In other words, you are wise to not be in too much of a rush to line an airsoft shop's pockets with 400 notes, before you know exactly what that would be best spent on.

 

[BrightCandle]

I know its a cliche but its one I agree with, I think the first gun should be an M4. The reason is that its so easy to maintain and repair and upgrade and find attachments for and buy gear for etc. It just makes everything easier. I understand why people don't want to do it, we would rather be unique in our look, but its a practical thing because there are a lot of great M4s with high performance and next to zero faults. I had the exact same thoughts coming in wanting to get a different gun, and actually its my third gun that has become the project/kind of hard to upgrade gun. I don't think the bullpups and other less well sold guns are a good idea straight out. You asked for things meeting your criteria so I gave information on what I know, but I can't recommend any of that for a first airsoft gun.

 

[Chock]

I know its a cliche but its one I agree with, I think the first gun should be an M4.

Click to shrink...

Me too.

I know it's a bit boring in comparison to some other weapons, and loads of people use them (including me). But getting something like a Combat Machine M4 is a very good starting point and one which won't leave you either bankrupt or unable to do CQB and woodland fighting.

 

[Ian_Gere]

Thanks Chock once in a while the good stuff percolates to the surface :lol:

I disagree regarding M4's - it's true that they are eminently upgradeable,* but in fact the V2 gearbox they use is a pig compared to the V3 gb used in AK's and G36's. The hop up unit in M4's is hardly a triumph of elegant simplicity either...

The gb in an ICS L85A2 is apparently a delight of simple, well thought through design, with features built into it which are obviously a response to the most common complaints about all sorts of AEG design flaws - for eg the variable spring tension allows you to tune your FPS without replacing the spring, messing with the air seal, or swapping barrels. It is also quick change, so you can get the spring out without dismantling the whole gb if you want to radically change role. IIRC you can also disengage the anti-reversal latch from outside the gb without taking the motor off (which is a handy way to overcome the non-specific jams from which all gb's can suffer - nobody really knows the whole story on this phenomenon and it's not something you should worry about much because changing to full-auto for a burst is normally all that's required but sometimes, just when you really don't need it, it can be a full lock up - it may simply be due to temperature causing various components to expand/contract at different rates).

*Obviously a large % of upgrade parts for M4's are shit - it's a popular gun so every Tom, Dick & Han with an injection moulding machine know they'll get some buyers no matter how compatible, useful, or not, their efforts turn out to be long term. Also, many of the parts available 2nd hand are the 'Y upgrades' I mentioned above, stuff which seemed like a good idea to people who didn't know that they would want to do something quite different once the BB's start flying and the sweat begins to roll. But that should mean that, whatever parts you decide you want when you have some experience, they will be 'Y upgrades' to somebody, right? Theoretically yeah, but in practice we are not so unique as we would like to imagine.

In short, if you don't want the same looking gun as everyone else, their significant other, and their dog (cats obviously have their own requirements), there are plenty of good quality alternatives, some cheap, many good to take to any skirmish OOTB. All I would say is that, if you shoulder an ICS L85A2, flick through the fire select options, dump a mag and replace it, and decide it's not for you ergonomically, for your first gun do follow Chock's advice about not being quite so keen to dump 400 notes into a retailer's pot, because 250 will generally cover it.

Have you thought about a battery, a spare battery, a charger, spare mags, something to carry them in and, more importantly, eyepro & boots?

 

[TheGrover]

Thanks for all the input guys, i really do appreciate the help and opinions; One of the best things about airsoft is how every skirmisher ive met is ready to help however they can.

After a few weeks researching dozens of guns, gearboxes and bits and bobs available, i can only agree fully with the idea that the best gun for a new skirmisher is some type of M4. To others reading this asking a similar question to my original post, the last few posts here are just thr answer you're after.

I think im going to go with a more exotic gun anyway; im an engineer by trade and the prospect of having to learn and understand the guts of a non-standard airsoft gun seems like a hobby rather than a chore.

I dont mean to disrespect anyone, i always would have bought a more exotic gun, but now i feel as if i can make the decision well-informed, rather than hastily.

Thanks a bunch gents, hope ill see you on a field soon

 

[Sitting Duck]

well if you really wanted to just go nutz with £400 or so.....

G&G Raider - short vers for cqb 2 tone free from zero one & get UKARA

then when UKARA'd finish your gun collection off at taiwangun

Cyma 28 AK, Army L85 & JG G36 - all 3 for under £300 + orig Raider would be just a tad over £400

cheap £30 pistol if req,

timed/impact grenade - forget the adapters and make your own to use cheapo shotgun primers

(about £7:50 for 100 - cheaper than 9mm blanks)

ok the pistol grenade is about £100 for chrimbo pressie

plus on top of just buying guns you are still looking at maybe another £100+ on mags/charger/batteries

and that is just on weapons - still gotta add in your loadout stuff - chest rig boots etc.....

hence you can see why I'm so skint lately and probably heading for divorce when credit card bill arrives

but very easy to get carried away if not too careful....

personally I like the G&G cm18 - just looks lovely in the black/tan and is different to the normal M4

(nice in tan/black too I think and love the flip sights)

but then I have problems getting way way carried away with any hobby I get into and do think I need help

 

[TheGrover]

well if you really wanted to just go nutz with £400 or so.....

G&G Raider - short vers for cqb 2 tone free from zero one & get UKARA

then when UKARA'd finish your gun collection off at taiwangun

Cyma 28 AK, Army L85 & JG G36 - all 3 for under £300 + orig Raider would be just a tad over £400

cheap £30 pistol if req,

timed/impact grenade - forget the adapters and make your own to use cheapo shotgun primers

(about £7:50 for 100 - cheaper than 9mm blanks)

ok the pistol grenade is about £100 for chrimbo pressie

plus on top of just buying guns you are still looking at maybe another £100+ on mags/charger/batteries

and that is just on weapons - still gotta add in your loadout stuff - chest rig boots etc.....

hence you can see why I'm so skint lately and probably heading for divorce when credit card bill arrives

but very easy to get carried away if not too careful....

personally I like the G&G cm18 - just looks lovely in the black/tan and is different to the normal M4

(nice in tan/black too I think and love the flip sights)

but then I have problems getting way way carried away with any hobby I get into and do think I need help

Click to shrink...

hmm. was thinking of buying a pistol for myself as a christmas present, but i could ask my relatives to buy me a BFG and a bunch of shotgun primers for me... not sure my grandparents would understand why i'm asking them for shotgun primers... might lead to some arkward questions