Laser safety

[clumpyedge]

Definitely agreed there. FWIW Stanta is open for business again, Combat Airsoft are putting on a few events this year - first in April!

Yeah after their first game (supposedly a milsim) and the Christmas game I can safely say even with Stanta being such a cool site I wont be handing my money to them just to get onto the site.

 

[DrAlexanderTobacco]

Thanks for the heads up - it would be my first game with them. Anyway I'll stop the derail there.

 

[Rogerborg]

Anything up to class 2 - triggering the blink reflex

"only 17% of subjects responded with a blink reflex under typical Class 2 [1 milliwatt] laser conditions"

Conclusion: “Aversion responses, including the blink reflex, do not ensure adequate protection when working with a Class 2 laser.”

Note that the 17% was among the group who were expecting the light.  Among a group who had not been warned only 14% (fewer than 1 in 7) blinked.

The further conclusion was that anyone likely to be subject to laser light should be warned to expect it and to actively look away.

You'll be aware how much attention is paid during safety briefings, so an alternative to #VictimBlaming every player would be to tell the couple of people who want to use frikkin' lasers to kindly leave them at home.

 

[DrAlexanderTobacco]

"only 17% of subjects responded with a blink reflex under typical Class 2 [1 milliwatt] laser conditions"

Thanks for the study, interesting stuff and I wasn't aware that the blink reflex occurs at such a low rate. I would still be happy to play with lasers in a game; I can't see a laser realistically being focused on your retina for long enough to cause damage. It would be interesting to see if there are any documented instances of people suffering damage in games. I think I read a story on UCAP's page a while back but could be wrong.

 

[GREG_BURTON]

The power rating of the diode is a much more important factor than the colour. Green Lasers can be more damaging to the eye as the retina absorbs green light much more easily than red which is also the reason NV is green as you can see more shades of green than any other colour, which is useful if the picture you are looking at is monochromatic. The problem with cheap Chinese green lasers is that they will be using something called frequency doubling so it will be a low power green diode being backed by a stronger IR diode being pumped to match the wavelength. Normally this wouldn't be a problem as you would have an IR filter to block any excess IR light of a high power getting through but ya know, China.

 

[KirbyHCI]

The power rating of the diode is a much more important factor than the colour. Green Lasers can be more damaging to the eye as the retina absorbs green light much more easily than red which is also the reason NV is green as you can see more shades of green than any other colour, which is useful if the picture you are looking at is monochromatic. The problem with cheap Chinese green lasers is that they will be using something called frequency doubling so it will be a low power green diode being backed by a stronger IR diode being pumped to match the wavelength. Normally this wouldn't be a problem as you would have an IR filter to block any excess IR light of a high power getting through but ya know, China.

Yeah this is mainly my concern, things not being as advertised. Higher power, inadequate IR filtering, etc.

I do find them useful sometimes and they'll give a position away no more than a flashlight, which is needed half the time anyway where we play.

Obviously we don't use ours if somebody at a game doesn't want us to anyway, and we use pressure switches while avoiding aiming for the face. I'm just wondering if I should at least bodge an extra IR filter and maybe a little general dimming on the green one just to be safe. 

 

[Rogerborg]

I would still be happy to play with lasers in a game; I can't see a laser realistically being focused on your retina for long enough to cause damage.

To be honest, me either.  At least not almost all consumer lasers under almost all circumstances.

However, as above, China has ruined that for all of us by pumping out those green retina scorchers that means insurers don't want to risk having any sort of laser in play.

 

[Tackle]

Ultimately, their not worth the aggro, hard to "police" & very few benefits from their use, understandable why most sites (& prob insurers) have a blanket ban.

 

[jcheeseright]

Yeah this is mainly my concern, things not being as advertised. Higher power, inadequate IR filtering, etc.

I do find them useful sometimes and they'll give a position away no more than a flashlight, which is needed half the time anyway where we play.

Obviously we don't use ours if somebody at a game doesn't want us to anyway, and we use pressure switches while avoiding aiming for the face. I'm just wondering if I should at least bodge an extra IR filter and maybe a little general dimming on the green one just to be safe. 

If you want to be safe, don't use a green laser.  

Thanks for the study, interesting stuff and I wasn't aware that the blink reflex occurs at such a low rate. I would still be happy to play with lasers in a game; I can't see a laser realistically being focused on your retina for long enough to cause damage. It would be interesting to see if there are any documented instances of people suffering damage in games. I think I read a story on UCAP's page a while back but could be wrong.

So I have a real full power military PEQ15, on high power the IR laser is class 3 at 45mW, at that power even momentary exposure is enough to cause damage and the hazard distance on it is measured in kilometres.  

Obviously, it doesn't get put on high power because I'm not an idiot, but don't assume that people you're playing against are a.  Looking out for your interests, and b.  Not retarded. 

 

[Tackle]

My money's on B................?

 

[Adolf Hamster]

don't assume that people you're playing against are a.  Looking out for your interests, and b.  Not retarded. 

pretty solid advice for any aspect of airsoft.

i wonder what kind of protection various lenses would offer against lasers, like if you run yellow tinted.

 

[DrAlexanderTobacco]

Obviously, it doesn't get put on high power because I'm not an idiot, but don't assume that people you're playing against are a.  Looking out for your interests, and b.  Not retarded. 

Yep, I understand that and I've covered it in my other posts. I've got a lot of concerns about night games and IR related damage.

In my ideal world lasers would be tested similar to chrono. But that's the ideal, not reality - fair play to any site owners who ban laser use.

E: fair point about being retarded of course; I doubt the "standard" airsofter is going to actually check power output, or care when they order a dodgy Chinese clone.

 

[jcheeseright]

pretty solid advice for any aspect of airsoft.

i wonder what kind of protection various lenses would offer against lasers, like if you run yellow tinted.

In order to have any kind of effective protection you need lenses that filter the specific wavelength of the laser, nearly impossible to do without just filtering everything at which point you can't see! 

Yep, I understand that and I've covered it in my other posts. I've got a lot of concerns about night games and IR related damage.

In my ideal world lasers would be tested similar to chrono. But that's the ideal, not reality - fair play to any site owners who ban laser use.

E: fair point about being retarded of course; I doubt the "standard" airsofter is going to actually check power output, or care when they order a dodgy Chinese clone.

Testing laser power is surprisingly difficult and requires specialised equipment and knowledge, far more than you could realistically expect from a site marshal. 

On top of that, 99% of Airsoft lasers would just straight up fail. 

 

[Lasbrisas17]

I don't really see why someone would use a visible laser for airsoft. The only use I see is IR laser with night vision but yeah they are probably pretty dangerous since I doubt your eyes will have a reflex to it and you can't tell if someones shining it at u unless u have nods urself (also lots of times I see people carelessly leave them toggled on because they can't see it). Sadly "eye safe" ir lasers are extremely expensive, even the cheap chinese stuff is kind of expensive so the vast majority use cheap high powered IR. Tbh I wouldn't be annoyed as an NVG user myself if IR laser was banned, I can use sights or tracer to aim most of the time no problem. Also IR lasers can easily burn out NVG tubes so ye.