Have You Hpa'd in the Past and Left it Behind?

[alxndrhll]

Hi folks,

Just a general canvas on peoples thoughts who have run HPA as their primary means of powering their RIFs and subsequently decided it wasn't for them.

I've been running HPA as my primary means of powering my RIFs for a fair while now (I honestly can't remember exactly how long), I frequently go back and forth on whether it's something I can be bothered with. Since around October-ish I've been going round in circles as to what is the right decision for me and I just can't land on an answer.

The biggest element to consider with HPA is the cost of getting into it, that's largely seen as the most painful bit. I have several tanks, a scuba tank, a few regulators, a hand pump with appropriate filters, lines so a fair ol' amount of investment before we even get to the RIFs that lot powers. Over the years I've found I'm much less performance orientated and have started to become much more interested in the GBBR side of life (I've tried many of them before, most recently an MWS which I very much regret parting with). I'm aware the easy answer here is 'why not both', which is something I've pondered on a lot... ultimately that falls with both systems being pretty finanicial investment heavy and with the lay of the land where it is at present I already feel I'm perhaps a little over invested in the hobby.

So the question, has anyone out there felt like they were in a similar situation? Did you sell up and move to a different platform? Did you regret it massively? I'm aware it'll all be personal preference at the end of the day, but hopefully a bit of thinking aloud might give me some clarity.

Cheers,
Alex

P.s. Yes, I'm sure having not played for month isn't helping... but it seems like as good a time as any to take stock.

 

[Albiscuit]

Interesting topic and thoughts.

i have a few AEGs and some gas guns (tm mp7 and mp9) and love both but I do feel an urge to expand into a HPA way of life but like you say there’s a fair bit of investment needed for me to do that.

I get why going all in with a certain power makes more sense, at the moment I need to charge batteries and find gas for each game, a mini HPA rig would mean ANOTHER bag to take to a game and more to carry.

Why are you swaying more towards GBB over HPA?

 

[alxndrhll]

Interesting topic and thoughts.

i have a few AEGs and some gas guns (tm mp7 and mp9) and love both but I do feel an urge to expand into a HPA way of life but like you say there’s a fair bit of investment needed for me to do that.

I get why going all in with a certain power makes more sense, at the moment I need to charge batteries and find gas for each game, a mini HPA rig would mean ANOTHER bag to take to a game and more to carry.

Why are you swaying more towards GBB over HPA?

The element you've hinted at is one of the larger reasons, namely the sheer amount of stuff you need to take with you for a game. I need the HPA tanks (varies based on the site/format of the games), batteries (because assuming you've not running a mechanical system you still need batteries) and then regular gas for pistols. The idea of just needing a few bottles of varying gas and I'm set is very appealing... and freeing up that space in the house. Airsoft tat takes up a bunch of storage room, HPA equipment ramps that up even more.

That aside, not having to run a backpack/getting rid of the line was freeing while I was using my SRS. I wouldn't ever put it down as a huge con when playing, because I tend to agree that you don't tend to notice it all that much. However, I did find it much easier to throw myself around a bit once it had gone... though that could be entirely psychological in terms of no longer running around with what is for all intents and purposes, a bomb on my back (is that something I'm allowed to say?).

Sniping made me realise I don't actually care all that much about raking in 50 'kills' in a day, very much landing on the 'quality over quantity' side of the fence. While minimum engagement distances very quickly got annoying.

GBBRs feel like a nice middle ground of not using an AEG (nothing against them, I just don't like the sound... and tend to prefer being able to tech on my own equipment, AEGs are never something I've been comfortable working on) while also giving me the freedom while playing that HPA can take away (though it's not until you stop using it that you realise the affect it has).

For reference, I like my replicas to look like replicas so the MTW Aero stocks are something I was interested in but have since changed my mind on... and the CO2 stocks while decent restrict how you can set your length of pull/which stocks you can use... which is something that bothers me more than I'd like to admit.

Apologies, I'm waffling. I sure this all sounds like my mind is already made up. We all know the benefits of HPA, so it's just trying to figure out with of those benefits I'll be missing out on, and how much I'm likely to miss them. It's very easy to say 'I'm less bothered about consistent performance these days', I imagine that's something I may well eat my words on should I decide to rejig where I'm at.

 

[Davegolf]

I had a Polarstar FE, great bit of kit performance wise, but I grew tired of storing and lugging the required kit around.

Why do you think you can’t you be bothered with it?

There are many factors to the why and what, and I feel I’ve gotten exponentially faster and more ruthless in gun building/ditching in search of my ‘perfect setup’.

Sounds like you’ve been mulling for a while, I’d say write down your factors and which gun/setup ticks the relevant boxes because as you say, you’ve been going round in circles, easily done when there’s too much to comprehend - so write it down then you can look at it in a table format or something.

For me, effective range and first hit probability are top of the list, seconded by ergonomics such that I can get on target fast, thirdly stealth.

I like being active, so camping / sniping is out.

I like ranged shots moving in and getting up close to the action, so DMR is out. Assault rifle it is then.

To that end sorted AEGs give up nothing to GBB or HPA.

The only exception is noise.

I recently built a stonking AK, love it, but cannot get the motor any quieter.

Recently (on the grand scheme of things) C02 stocks have come about, so now I’m into an F2 build.

So I think maybe that’s an option??

EDIT: haha literally as I wrote this you answered Albiscuit and essentially sound like me

 

[alxndrhll]

I had a Polarstar FE, great bit of kit performance wise, but I grew tired of storing and lugging the required kit around.

Why do you think you can’t you be bothered with it?

There are many factors to the why and what, and I feel I’ve gotten exponentially faster and more ruthless in gun building/ditching in search of my ‘perfect setup’.

Sounds like you’ve been mulling for a while, I’d say write down your factors and which gun/setup ticks the relevant boxes because as you say, you’ve been going round in circles, easily done when there’s too much to comprehend - so write it down then you can look at it in a table format or something.

For me, effective range and first hit probability are top of the list, seconded by ergonomics such that I can get on target fast, thirdly stealth.

I like being active, so camping / sniping is out.

I like ranged shots moving in and getting up close to the action, so DMR is out. Assault rifle it is then.

To that end sorted AEGs give up nothing to GBB or HPA.

The only exception is noise.

I recently built a stonking AK, love it, but cannot get the motor any quieter.

Recently (on the grand scheme of things) C02 stocks have come about, so now I’m into an F2 build.

So I think maybe that’s an option??

That glorious moment when 'Submit Reply' happens at almost the exact same time eh?

I guess to expand a little on the Wolverine CO2 stock, I have the 33g version. Everything about it seemed like a slam dunk for what I was looking for, but it limits you to the last two stops on a 6-point buffer tube (assuming you want the canister covered). If I want to use my preferred stock (the smaller B5 Systems stock, I forget the proper name) it could only be used full extended.  I'm aware length of pull isn't something many care too much about, in the grand scheme of things it's much less of a consideration when it comes to airsoft, but when you've got a bad back and a knackered shoulder it becomes much more of a consideration!

Interesting that we seem to be in such similar places, where it seems like we're looking for much the same thing... with sound being a big consideration (your being 'as quiet as possible' and mine being 'doesn't sound like a 'sewing machine').

Granted if I had an ounce of ability/willingness to learn AEGs they'd likely be much more of an option. I'm very comfortable with teching HPA stuff (because it's generally very easy), and I was really happy with how easy the MWS is to work on... despite how scary that trigger box might look it's all very simple if you take your time.

 

[Davegolf]

EDIT: @alxndrhll RE the C02 length of pull / stock setup, I did quite a bit of vid watching, asking owners, measuring images (sad’O) etc and concluded what you have said, 2 clicks in.

With my preferred Vltor IMOD that gives a LOP of ~310mm. (buttstock end to trigger)

The IMOD has quite a foot angle so when shouldered high (active/aware/CQB) it’s actually shorter than that.

So I’m happy with that but you may want shorter still by the sounds of it?

If you’re predominantly a semi shooter then the sewing machine factor isn’t a thing with a properly built AEG, high torque motor / fast gear set.

Even more so if you add precocking into the mix as the shot masks the motor cycle.

Shame your not local (and COVID crap obv) I’d say come have a pop with the AK to listen / experience.

 

[alxndrhll]

EDIT: @alxndrhll RE the C02 length of pull / stock setup, I did quite a bit of vid watching, asking owners, measuring images (sad’O) etc and concluded what you have said, 2 clicks in.

With my preferred Vltor IMOD that gives a LOP of ~310mm. (buttstock end to trigger)

The IMOD has quite a foot angle so when shouldered high (active/aware/CQB) it’s actually shorter than that.

So I’m happy with that but you may want shorter still by the sounds of it?

If you’re predominantly a semi shooter then the sewing machine factor isn’t a thing with a properly built AEG, high torque motor / fast gear set.

Even more so if you add precocking into the mix as the shot masks the motor cycle.

Shame your not local (and COVID crap obv) I’d say come have a pop with the AK to listen / experience.

Aye, I tend to run mine (when running tank/link with the B5) 3/4 in, it varies slightly depending on how much grief my shoulder/wrist is giving me. Unfortunately I can't modify the B5 in the same way I've modified a MOE stock because of how the buttpad fixes to the stock, granted I doubt that'd help much if I could running 33g canisters just limits you on the variety of positions available to use. Outside of that it seems great, just pricey to setup. Nothing worse than screwing a fresh cartridge in to find out something isn't right in the hop chamber and essentially have to waste an entire £4 canister (price will vary based on what you can find I imagine).

Aye, I'm very much a semi shooter (which is great because it seemingly means you circumvent a lot of the inherant issues various forms of propulsion present)... and a bag of 3000 BBs lasts me an age ?. I imagine the vast majority of views to the YouTube link on your AK ad are mine ?!

 

[Davegolf]

Nothing worse than screwing a fresh cartridge in to find out something isn't right in the hop chamber and essentially have to waste an entire £4 canister (price will vary based on what you can find I imagine).

Are you talking coming from an MTW by chance?

I magine the vast majority of views to the YouTube link on your AK ad are mine ?

Ha you’ve watched that, and that’s with a microphone listening, picks up a lot more high pitch noises than the human ear.

 

[alxndrhll]

Are you talking coming from an MTW by chance?

Aye, suffice to say CO2 canisters in the stock is not an efficient way of testing out different barrels, buckings and nubs when it comes to the MTW haha. Almost as expected I'm not sure this thread is helping me unravel my brain much, but I do keep looking at the HAO wesbite and I can't seem to stop. Is it boredom, or is it a sign? Maybe we'll never know... I hate this hobby at times, all this lockdown stuff has given me far too much time to overthink things ?‍. Granted it very much seems to be causing 1 of 3 things, folks selling a bunch of things to buy a bunch of new shinies, folks selling up entirely, or folks leaving things as they are/tinkering a bit and just waiting and paying very little attention to the hobby till we can play again. I think I've gone through/been tempted by all 3 at this point.

 

[Davegolf]

That’s what put me off the MTW, the hop and barrel were too inaccessible.

Im building up inside a TM NextGen, so I can just slide the upper off to get at the hop.

That lovely unicorn magic dust hop ?

Yes I think lockdown has been great for a lot of retail!!

So are you feeling the pull of GBBR?

I put a lot of thought into the V2 GHK M4, again because of C02.

I like the interaction of a GBBR it is definitely immersive.

I will most likely get another TM MP7 to scratch that itch whenever an indoor game is on the cards.

 

[alxndrhll]

Aye, I've always felt HPA is a bit soulless (excluding the Tippmans with the 'recoil'). Largely down to the fact they're very quiet, which to many is a selling point, I guess that's a personal thing on where your 'fun' from shooting a RIF comes from. For some I'm sure it's the number of 'kills' a RIF gets, for some it's the feedback from the RIF. Hell for some I imagine it's getting through a day without a RIF entirely shitting itself and being functional throughout, which was one of big draws to HPA for me way back when I started with it.

Don't get me wrong, I like RIFs, but they're not a huge part of the hobby for me. Getting out, running around, admiring other folks kit etc are all parts I enjoy more than messing around with RIFs when not playing. Having a reliable RIF which is easy to maintain is right at the top of my list for something I look for in a RIF, and in my eyes HPA is hard to beat in that regard. Which is why I've been asking myself this question over and over for a while, to the point I figured I'd open it up to others thoughts. I'd say I'm pretty much at a point where I'm jumping between:

1) Sell up my MTWs and HPA stuff, pick up an MWS and mags... generally downsize the amount of investment I have within the sport.
2) Sit tight where I am, but sell 2 of the 3 MTWs I currently have because no one really needs 3 MTWs. Continue trying to find the ideal solution for running HPA, which loosely speaking means continuing to throw money at it until I land in a happy place... or wind up here once more.
 

I guess having worked through it, I feel like I'm at a cross roads where dispite the investment so far I don't feel like I've landed where I want to be. So now I'm trying to figure out if it's worth continuing going deeper, or tap out now.

 

[Adolf Hamster]

coming in from the cold after the first lockdown is what did it for me.

with COVID i had no access to my normal refill place for the scuba tank and of course months of neglect meant the site's compressor was down too.

so out comes the trusty old jg and it made me realise that whilst yes my super obsessive perfectionist build hpa's were about as good as you can get a low velocity smoothbore to shoot in terms of accuracy, response etc. the simple fact was that it was spoiled by the fact that all that time, effort, learning, tinkering, pondering and straight up cashmoney (.48's in an auto capable hpa......) was totally wasted when that perfect shot that flew straight and true found it's mark.

only for the mark to shrug and keep playing.....

so instead i figured why go to the effort? settle for good enough and gain the convenience of just slapping in a battery and away you go.

then i figured, fuck it, lets get a gbbr so the dragonuv happened, and i'm happy trading the performance for the yelps from anyone nearby when i fire it

 

[Davegolf]

@alxndrhll Yeh 3 MTWs is unnecessary.

Id def sell 2 and sit tight there for a while.

Are they all dressed for different parties?

Do you run pistols also?

@Adolf Hamster “only for the mark to shrug and keep playing.....” is the whole reason I don’t generally get on with GBBR in field games, more often than not a burst is needed for the recipient to acknowledge/concede.

Indoors however GBB is great. A lot of the time fear of the noisy gas gun alone scores you hits ?

 

[alxndrhll]

coming in from the cold after the first lockdown is what did it for me.

with COVID i had no access to my normal refill place for the scuba tank and of course months of neglect meant the site's compressor was down too.

so out comes the trusty old jg and it made me realise that whilst yes my super obsessive perfectionist build hpa's were about as good as you can get a low velocity smoothbore to shoot in terms of accuracy, response etc. the simple fact was that it was spoiled by the fact that all that time, effort, learning, tinkering, pondering and straight up cashmoney (.48's in an auto capable hpa......) was totally wasted when that perfect shot that flew straight and true found it's mark.

only for the mark to shrug and keep playing.....

so instead i figured why go to the effort? settle for good enough and gain the convenience of just slapping in a battery and away you go.

then i figured, fuck it, lets get a gbbr so the dragonuv happened, and i'm happy trading the performance for the yelps from anyone nearby when i fire it

Aye, another tick in the box of 'is this extra faff worth it'. Granted the theme at this point is AEGs make life easier... if you have the inclination to learn/figure out the maintenance routines and/or preferences when it comes to upgrades and the like.

@alxndrhll Yeh 3 MTWs is unnecessary.

Id def sell 2 and sit tight there for a while.

Are they all dressed for different parties?

Do you run pistols also?

Aye, I'll break them down below:

Forged SBR (10", 10.3" outer barrel, 285mm inner barrel) which is my main squeeze for outdoors (or is intended to be once we can actually play again).

Billet SBR (10" rail, 7"outer barrel, 200mm inner barrel, 33g CO2 stock, tracer/suppressor) was going to be the main CQB squeeze... my Hicapa changed that plan. It's since been returned to 'stock'.

Billet SBR Limited Edition, never did anything with it because I couldn't bring myself to mess around with a 1 of 1 limited edition in the end.

I do, I have a TM G19 and TM G17 in use interchangably as back ups. Though I favour the G19 for the most part. I also picked up a fancy Hicapa which is now my CQB RIF of choice, as much as it will incurr the 'wrath of the elite' I do have a Primary adapter for it. Given where I live I haven't been able to play a CQB game for months, so haven't been able to try it out yet. I imagine I'll pick up some more Hicapa mags at some point to see how it is if ditching the line. The benefit of HPA with a Capa seems great though, the consistency means you can tune them really tight without having to worry about inconsistency from gas... and also much like everything else, now I'm invested in HPA I find it hard to not use it for everything. Because otherwise what was the point in the investment ?‍. If I decide to ditch the HPA I imagine I'll have a general rejig of things, likely just tweaking the leaf spring to make it less picky on the pressure it likes.

 

[Adolf Hamster]

Aye, another tick in the box of 'is this extra faff worth it'. Granted the theme at this point is AEGs make life easier... if you have the inclination to learn/figure out the maintenance routines and/or preferences when it comes to upgrades and the like.

This is where the jg came into the story, yes its not as good as the hpa's were but it cost a hell of a lot less and its still a damn fine gun and good enough to get the job done.

Of course they all have their place, i wont deny i miss the mouse-click trigger, deathly silence and accuracy you could get, but at the same time i dont miss hauling out the dive tank, making sure i've got the right pressure set for the right gun/ammo combo, or the constant feeling that folk think you're a chrono cheating [redacted] because your gun has a hosepipe on it.

The dragonuv is an interesting one, had some problems getting it set up right but i think it's there now (didnt get enough trigger time to be sure before lockdown 2 hit). Adds a very different dynamic because unlike with the m4 which was my previous range gun you cant just spam shoot your way out of a bind. It just felt that a dmr slow paced platform was the best way to deal with green gas and northern weather, although it's still pretty much a summer gun.

And before anyone asks why not just hpa tap the dragonuv- i might not mind an airline on the gun but reloading that thing is glacial enough without having to mess about with a line on top.

 

[sjhirst]

Having been with hpa for many a year, i think i was getting to a point where just an aeg would suffice!

The car breaking down and needing some money nearly decided it for me as the first thing that went was the mtw.

However i sort of sat back and thought about it and decided i just enjoy the variety of airsoft and bought an aeg a few months later, to go with the hpa stuff i kept.

If i go to a site, i usually take the Kythera AK and the KWA TK45 aeg (which is a damn fine aeg i must say) or the HPA tapped GBBR.

I love being able to swap rif's around and feel fortunate to be able to do it. Plus if I'm running the hpa, i can lend the aeg to someone if theirs breaks down.

I agree that all the extra gubbins can be a pain with hpa, but I think the fun factor far outweighs that.

 

[Adolf Hamster]

without taking too much of a tangent how do you find the kythera? seemed like it might be a decent option for an easier used setup although not sure i'd wanna skip auto for it.

 

[sjhirst]

Love it. I chucked it into a cyma 076 and whilst the trigger isn't super light etc, it was no hassle at all. I really like the fact there's no battery to store ( although it'd be tiny) and I'm more a semi auto player.

 

[Impulse]

I'll weigh in with "sort of"

I converted my VSR to HPA and I love it. Wraith CO2 adapter is a fantastic piece of kit and lets me carry everything inside the RIF. It's silent, the bolt pull is short and effortless, plus I don't have to worry about tanks and lines and having a scuba tank to fill. The "sort of" comes from me buying a tank, mostly for a project I plan on doing in the summer, however I tried it with the VSR and didn't like having to carry the tank on my person. Sometimes I like to just put my rifle down and do some pistol work before going back to collect it, which you can't do with a tank; it forces you to at least sling your rifle which takes precious seconds. When I do HPA the m14, I'll be looking at ways of carrying either a small tank or trying to jury rig some sort of CO2 power source and keep them in a stock pouch. Thinking a smaller HPA tank in an Invadergear stock pouch.

So for me, HPA is a great thing for snipers and DMRs (even if the m14 will be kept at 1.1J, the Polarstar engine is semi-auto only. I'm not a hypocrite!). For anything full auto or any pistol, I don't see the point. Battery and gas is far easier and more convenient, and if you want to take someone out silently, just carry a mk23. Yes, I get that the MTW is a fantastic piece of kit and one of the other ghillies at my local site has moved away from their SRS and onto an MTW, but if I'm going with something full auto, I'm just going with a simple battery. Plus, why would I want to use a power source that is larger than the RIF it's powering, in reference to HPA on pistols.

 

[Adolf Hamster]

Love it. I chucked it into a cyma 076 and whilst the trigger isn't super light etc, it was no hassle at all. I really like the fact there's no battery to store ( although it'd be tiny) and I'm more a semi auto player.

fair enough, i tend to preferr semi auto but still like having a panic switch