GBBR/HPA New Law Issues?

[proffrink]

Not really, because the inherent efficiencies of each system are different. Some more expensive electric solenoid can work on a lower pressure whilst something like a Daytona Gun kit needs a minimum of 110psi in the majority of cases. 110psi in a Polarstar is far more than enough to break the legal limit twice over (and the engine, but you get the point). Unless places start selling UK-friendly kits, I see no way this can happen. It's another ludicrously unenforceable bit of legislation because you're then regulating pressure regulators.

I suppose the best thing one could do would be to set the 'UK safe' pressure then spot-weld a tournament lock (like the Wolverine storm one) so it's no longer readily convertible. Or you could round off the pressure adjustment socket? Of course you are then screwed if you want to use it for a different kit in either case so I dunno. I for one am leaving my stuff as is (i.e. set and zip-tied) until someone gets taken to court to figure out this mess (which I think we all know probably won't happen).

 

[Lozart]

It would be quite simple to make a range of non adjustable regulators though. Once you know what sort of PSI you need, you buy the right regulator for that gun.

I don't know, just spit balling ideas really....

 

[proffrink]

I suppose, but then as an HPA user I have electric solenoid and fully pneumatic systems that run at vastly different pressures. Regulators - even the cheapest ones - are about 60 quid, and the good, high refresh ones are 130 plus :S Though my situation is a bit unique in that I have different regulators for all my stuff for a series of reasons, there are people out there who will have even two electric solenoid systems that - because of the barrel length/bore, kit brand, hop setup etc. will need to adjust a regulator for their gun.

And further to that, the issue is just that: The kit is just the start - the barrel and hop etc. will all mean different pressure settings for different people even with the same kit.

 

[Lozart]

But surely that's not different to AEG springs? No two AEGs work exactly the same because they all have so many variables and yet we're all used to compromising on the springs we get. Regulators currently are only the price they are because of the need for adjustment. At their most basic they're a restriction in the line so any fixed venturi should do the job.

 

[proffrink]

And here lies the actual issue: 'Readily convertible' is far too vague. Quick-swap spring gearboxes could do the same thing. Does a 'zip tie' mean you have to 'manufacture' or 'retool' the item in order to get it over the limit? What if I replace my upper with a new, longer barrel by pushing out a pin on my AEG? I'd imagine that could be done in less than 2-3 minutes.

Also, AEG springs don't cost £60+. I'm sure you've got a set of spare AEG springs, but I know very few HPA users with a spare set of regulators. We're talking about a disparity of around 60psi between the most efficient electric solenoid and the least efficient fully pneumatic system: On electric solenoid, even 5psi makes a huge difference, so there would need to be a minimum of 30 different regulators or regulator parts to cover those pressure bands. Then there's the issue that as a player I have no idea which regulator to pick for my hop/barrel setup before I buy. I could be conservative and go 10psi behind where I think I might need to be and then find myself short by 80psi, or I could buy a range and return them? I'm also not convinced that they're a high price just because of their adjust-ability - many are a high price because of the brand behind them and their comparative refresh rates.

The whole thing is super dumb and frankly deserves about as much of our attention as the people who wrote it gave it. If they better define it I'm happy to abide by it but as it stands there's nothing to say a zip tie isn't enough to stop something being 'readily' convertible. Also I have to use a tool to adjust pressure anyway and I imagine there's an argument to be made for that being beyond 'readily' already.

 

[Lozart]

OK, I'm sure that branding plays a part but when adjustable, industrial FRL's are only £20 then the average HPA user is having the piss taken.

Again, it's just an adjustable valve. The refresh rate is the CFM capability of said valve so is directly related to the bore size. If you know the CFM requirement for the setup you want (and yes, I know that isn't always simple but bear with me) then you can quite easily calculate the CFM at a given PSi and produce a fixed regulator accordingly. Now, that COULD be done with a housing that could take a number of different venturis so you'd only be paying for that part each time which would bring the cost down more in line with what you might pay for a spring (ish). So basically you pay the money for the regulator housing and then switch the venturi about to fine tune your gun. As long as that venturi isn't "quick change" and requires tools and a bit of faff to change it then you've satisfied the readily convertible part and Bob's your proverbial.

 

[sp00n]

OK, I'm sure that branding plays a part but when adjustable, industrial FRL's are only £20 then the average HPA user is having the piss taken.

Again, it's just an adjustable valve. The refresh rate is the CFM capability of said valve so is directly related to the bore size. If you know the CFM requirement for the setup you want (and yes, I know that isn't always simple but bear with me) then you can quite easily calculate the CFM at a given PSi and produce a fixed regulator accordingly. Now, that COULD be done with a housing that could take a number of different venturis so you'd only be paying for that part each time which would bring the cost down more in line with what you might pay for a spring (ish). So basically you pay the money for the regulator housing and then switch the venturi about to fine tune your gun. As long as that venturi isn't "quick change" and requires tools and a bit of faff to change it then you've satisfied the readily convertible part and Bob's your proverbial.

Industrial FRL's don't have to deal with an input pressure of 800psi, which is what most bottle output at.

There are some bottles that you can change the pressure to below 200 or 300psi iirc

 

[proffrink]

As above: Airsoft and paintball regulators are different in their input pressure to that which you might be referending. You can buy certain industrial regs but they're still about £50+. Believe me, I've looked. Also their refresh rate is usually arse according to many reviews for the Basylisk and Amped Airsoft white-labelled industrial ones (for fully pneumatic, at least - you might get away with it for electric solenoid).

If a manufacturer provided some sort of lockable regulator then great, but those already exist - I still need a tool to remove zipties just like I would need a single allen key to disassemble my entire Redline SFR. The problem here is you're trying to define 'readily', which is what the courts job is now.

 

[sokar666]

I currently use a Wolverine Storm reg which is tournament locked at every skirmish, tbh it rarely gets cut now as i have it set for the rif i use.  To change my psi as my tank is on my back like most hpa players. i would need to remove plate carrier, cut the cable tie with scissors or knife and then use the required allen key to adjust the psi and then cable tie it back up and put plate carrier back on.  Can't honestly see being able to get away that at a skirmish without being seen and asked what I'm doing.  Alternatively my scorpion evo spring can be removed and replaced in under 30 seconds.  My old ICS M4 i could have just replace the whole upper gearbox by removing one pin, maybe 20 seconds again.  The point I'm trying to get across is you can't worry about one type of energy and not the rest. If people want regulators capped or permanently locked then you will also need to remove the possibility of changing springs.  Neither is going to happen and to be fair neither should happen.  The government don't have the first clue on how to manage and police airsoft, even though it doesn't need it so i wouldn't worry to much.  Stick to your site/legal fps rules no matter what you are using and everything will be fine.

 

[proffrink]

Frankly I think any HPA user who doesn't tournament lock isn't doing their bit to discourage the phobia of HPA from site owners, so good on ye.

 

[Lozart]

I currently use a Wolverine Storm reg which is tournament locked at every skirmish, tbh it rarely gets cut now as i have it set for the rif i use.  To change my psi as my tank is on my back like most hpa players. i would need to remove plate carrier, cut the cable tie with scissors or knife and then use the required allen key to adjust the psi and then cable tie it back up and put plate carrier back on.  Can't honestly see being able to get away that at a skirmish without being seen and asked what I'm doing.  Alternatively my scorpion evo spring can be removed and replaced in under 30 seconds.  My old ICS M4 i could have just replace the whole upper gearbox by removing one pin, maybe 20 seconds again.  The point I'm trying to get across is you can't worry about one type of energy and not the rest. If people want regulators capped or permanently locked then you will also need to remove the possibility of changing springs.  Neither is going to happen and to be fair neither should happen.  The government don't have the first clue on how to manage and police airsoft, even though it doesn't need it so i wouldn't worry to much.  Stick to your site/legal fps rules no matter what you are using and everything will be fine.

Very valid point there, but the issue is more that adjusting an HPA gun is actually very quick and easy whereas (most) others require at least partial disassembly.

Coming to your last point though, site legal limits are one thing but let's not forget the starting point of this thread. It wasn't at a site but a random home visit from the Police. Now, whether or not the story is BS, it poses a potentially more realistic issue - someone sees you with a RIF and reports you. Local Police arrive and (as you say) not knowing any better they seize the gun and find that by winding up the regulator they have a Section 5 firearm. If they'd seized an AEG I very much doubt that they would have gone any further than firing it through a chrono because they wouldn't have tried to get an M150 spring and swap it out!

As with painting two tones, you can do it and more often than not get away with it purely by not being a dick and waving it about in public BUT there is still the possibility of getting caught out. Painting a two tone gets you pretty much a slap on the wrist and a fine, having an unlicenced S5 firearm is a bit more serious....

 

[JBenoit]

Possession of a Section 5 Prohibited Weapon with out propped authority was the last time I looked a mandatory minimum sentence of 5 years if prosecuted. There is a few incidences where the police have confiscated unlicenced weapons and never brought prosecution but it's rare.  I am only using the word "Weapon" as this is the terminology used in the legislature though in essence an airsoft gun is not a weapon as it's not intended to harm.

 

[MrMcG]

As I have said before the only time we will truly know the situation is when/if someone is caught, rif tested (I'd presume the testing would have to be explained if it goes to court) and then dragged in front of a judge. 

I don't think anyone wants to be that guy though. 

I also don't think it's unreasonable to assume the above wouldn't happen on a standard airsoft day and is more likely to occur if you are being a dick with the RIF within the view of public eye. 

I try to draw as little attention to myself when going to/from games as where some of my friends happily roll into McDonald's in full tac gear and empty holsters attached to them still. 

 

[proffrink]

Possession of a Section 5 Prohibited Weapon with out propped authority was the last time I looked a mandatory minimum sentence of 5 years if prosecuted. There is a few incidences where the police have confiscated unlicenced weapons and never brought prosecution but it's rare.  I am only using the word "Weapon" as this is the terminology used in the legislature though in essence an airsoft gun is not a weapon as it's not intended to harm.

Unfortunately you need to read the new Policing and Crime Act from this year:



In short, it reclassifies 'hot' or 'readily convertible' airsoft guns as being section 5 firearms, but we all know it won't be enforced because it's ridiculous. You would have been right about that if you'd said it a few months ago though.