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G&G Firehawk low ROF
- Thread starter Oshia
- Start date
Sitting Duck
Supporters
- May 11, 2014
- 4,894
- 1,735
yup but my ear has less experience than many on here (or hear)
and/motor height slightly out of wack - both will reduce rof etc....
also listening on vid's things sound a tad different perhaps
but deffo pointing out there where some changes made
maybe they changed ratio say from 18:1 to 16:1 and/or beefy motor
maybe recent G&G's may have had some less than perfect shimmed boxes
or lower "just chuck it in" build quality maybe...
But think motor will help and if he is fitting mosfet & redoing the wiring in box
then can check if the shimming is $hit too
I would be very interested as I'm in same boat but still reasonably happy with my
own less than snappy FH
Shame these lower FH's appeared, but like the TT mosfet problem - G&G are not
without their flaws but way better than most value for money M4 makers
(they make higher end stuff but most bread n butter probably comes from low/mid range stuff)
I love the CM18 - and think G&G's 2 x 30th edition models were not best lookers
should of done a nice metal receiver CM18 for one their releases
then again think they should do a clear Raider for beginners as well
soz for waffle post again - if OP susses out or manages to get her singing like she should
then please enlighten us with your findings - muchas gracias squire
(and fanx to all on here that assist noobs like me trying to learn as I go)
and/motor height slightly out of wack - both will reduce rof etc....
also listening on vid's things sound a tad different perhaps
but deffo pointing out there where some changes made
maybe they changed ratio say from 18:1 to 16:1 and/or beefy motor
maybe recent G&G's may have had some less than perfect shimmed boxes
or lower "just chuck it in" build quality maybe...
But think motor will help and if he is fitting mosfet & redoing the wiring in box
then can check if the shimming is $hit too
I would be very interested as I'm in same boat but still reasonably happy with my
own less than snappy FH
Shame these lower FH's appeared, but like the TT mosfet problem - G&G are not
without their flaws but way better than most value for money M4 makers
(they make higher end stuff but most bread n butter probably comes from low/mid range stuff)
I love the CM18 - and think G&G's 2 x 30th edition models were not best lookers
should of done a nice metal receiver CM18 for one their releases
then again think they should do a clear Raider for beginners as well
soz for waffle post again - if OP susses out or manages to get her singing like she should
then please enlighten us with your findings - muchas gracias squire
(and fanx to all on here that assist noobs like me trying to learn as I go)
Sitting Duck
Supporters
- May 11, 2014
- 4,894
- 1,735
FINAL UPDATE & SOZ FOR NOT CONFIRMING THIS BEFORE
G27 rapid Firehawk DOES have Top-Tech Gearbox in
Plain grip FireHawk has STANDARD CM16 Gearbox in
sorry chaps - putting them away and clocked the magwell and can deffo see
a larger TopTech Hologram sticker on G27 one and grip motor cover has red
paint presume to deter tampering and invalidate warranty
Plain FireHawk has smaller normal G&G sticker and is same box on CM18 & CM16's
no red paint on different grip motor cover
So there ya go - G&G threw in a top tech gearbox deffo on initial first batch of FH's
but just fitted the normal CM16 box on second batch with plain grip
probably 16:1 on TT box Vs 18:1 CM16 box
dunno about motor coz the rapid one has tamper red paint
at first glance the box looks about the same from what little I could see
but maybe they used higher speed gears and took a little more care in shimming/assembly
think all G&G's from about March were using TT boxes & 8mm bearings but maybe ratios
are different (must be) and perhaps better shim plus better piston/cylinder seals perhaps
but first glance box could well be a TT gearbox case but with standard build spec on slower FH
mystery solved - sort of so OP might wanna check change gear ratio if still after nutter ROF perhaps
whilst he has her all in bits - if he does the full monty of motor/gear/mosfet it should easily wipe the
floor/range with the first batch of FH's - hassle but might have to do this too
(probably have my sneaky son nick it and give the old one once he's knackered it with box mag)
Kiwi was right - seems like a proper full TT box in there - bastid G&G looking for great first reviews
G27 rapid Firehawk DOES have Top-Tech Gearbox in
Plain grip FireHawk has STANDARD CM16 Gearbox in
sorry chaps - putting them away and clocked the magwell and can deffo see
a larger TopTech Hologram sticker on G27 one and grip motor cover has red
paint presume to deter tampering and invalidate warranty
Plain FireHawk has smaller normal G&G sticker and is same box on CM18 & CM16's
no red paint on different grip motor cover
So there ya go - G&G threw in a top tech gearbox deffo on initial first batch of FH's
but just fitted the normal CM16 box on second batch with plain grip
probably 16:1 on TT box Vs 18:1 CM16 box
dunno about motor coz the rapid one has tamper red paint
at first glance the box looks about the same from what little I could see
but maybe they used higher speed gears and took a little more care in shimming/assembly
think all G&G's from about March were using TT boxes & 8mm bearings but maybe ratios
are different (must be) and perhaps better shim plus better piston/cylinder seals perhaps
but first glance box could well be a TT gearbox case but with standard build spec on slower FH
mystery solved - sort of so OP might wanna check change gear ratio if still after nutter ROF perhaps
whilst he has her all in bits - if he does the full monty of motor/gear/mosfet it should easily wipe the
floor/range with the first batch of FH's - hassle but might have to do this too
(probably have my sneaky son nick it and give the old one once he's knackered it with box mag)
Kiwi was right - seems like a proper full TT box in there - bastid G&G looking for great first reviews
jcheeseright
Supporters
- Jun 14, 2012
- 4,280
- 2,261
like Ian said, the fire hawk gearbox sounds AWFUL, that high pitched noise it's making isn't the motor. it's the gears screaming at you that they're too tight.
Shim and grease it properly and I'm sure it'll not only sound nicer, but perform better too.
Shim and grease it properly and I'm sure it'll not only sound nicer, but perform better too.
- Thread starter
- #25
Bastards, I'm gonna write to G&G and complain.
Well I have new SHS metal tooth piston, piston barings, alloy nozzle with seal and cylinder nozzle with 2 seals to stick in there when I open her up to sort the mosfet.
I will re-shim it and possibly change the motor, if its still not up to par then I'll change the gears too. The SHS shit was for an M4 project but I might aswell use it in the FH and stick the FH stock crap in the TROY M4.
I must say I'm really pissed off with G&G, I watched a thousand vids and reviews before ordering her, all with fantastic reviews and the ROF was insane.. its SHITE on the stock one I have now, I want it firing like a laser beam!
And the annoying thing is, I can't open her up until the mosfet arrives as I have a game on sunday and want to use it, I aren't gonna open it just to put the nozzles in when its running at 330fps already.
Thanks Sitting Duck, this info has been very useful.
Well I have new SHS metal tooth piston, piston barings, alloy nozzle with seal and cylinder nozzle with 2 seals to stick in there when I open her up to sort the mosfet.
I will re-shim it and possibly change the motor, if its still not up to par then I'll change the gears too. The SHS shit was for an M4 project but I might aswell use it in the FH and stick the FH stock crap in the TROY M4.
I must say I'm really pissed off with G&G, I watched a thousand vids and reviews before ordering her, all with fantastic reviews and the ROF was insane.. its SHITE on the stock one I have now, I want it firing like a laser beam!
And the annoying thing is, I can't open her up until the mosfet arrives as I have a game on sunday and want to use it, I aren't gonna open it just to put the nozzles in when its running at 330fps already.
Thanks Sitting Duck, this info has been very useful.
Sitting Duck
Supporters
- May 11, 2014
- 4,894
- 1,735
pics added to elaborate - sure you can work out which is which
soz for small pics but edited them to save space and then it didn't seem to work
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soz for small pics but edited them to save space and then it didn't seem to work
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BrightCandle
Members
- Apr 15, 2014
- 1,013
- 422
I think these gen 3 guns have a lot of problems frankly. The Rate of fire on my T4-18 is pretty rubbish, as is the shim job and I too have wax/glue in the motor screw making it all but impossible to remove the motor, and the height sounds wrong to me. I know people have said G&G guns are good but there are just too many of us with these latest guns having obvious problems, there is a serious quality control issue with these new guns.
My ROF is about 14 RPS, which is a little higher than the combat machine which did 13.5. This as far as I can tell is about normal for G&G guns.
My ROF is about 14 RPS, which is a little higher than the combat machine which did 13.5. This as far as I can tell is about normal for G&G guns.
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Ian_Gere
Retired Moderator
- Apr 1, 2012
- 6,417
- 2,050
Said it before and, no doubt, i'll say it again - there's no point preserving a warranty if you don't use it. That FH sounds tortured - send the poxy thing back. You shouldn't have to rip the guts out of a stock gun to stop it sounding like it's powered by cats being electrocuted...
- Thread starter
- #29
I'm afraid thats not an option as I've opened it to reshim, the spur gear was grinding slightly on the gearbox.
Now I'm not sure which to buy first.. 13:1 gears or a new high speed motor as this just has the standard G&G motor in.
I'm tempted to go for the gears first, what do you think?
Now I'm not sure which to buy first.. 13:1 gears or a new high speed motor as this just has the standard G&G motor in.
I'm tempted to go for the gears first, what do you think?
Sitting Duck
Supporters
- May 11, 2014
- 4,894
- 1,735
go for gears n mosfet then the box is sorted & shimmed
might be alright after that for a while and not desperately need motor
after all - see the rof & fps improve and you might be sorted
The TT box might just have had a few tweaks and higher speed gears
and they could of dropped in the reg motor even in the TT FH
(got the paint on the TT FH so can't check motor used)
reckon gears n mosfet may give her some guts she deserves
might be alright after that for a while and not desperately need motor
after all - see the rof & fps improve and you might be sorted
The TT box might just have had a few tweaks and higher speed gears
and they could of dropped in the reg motor even in the TT FH
(got the paint on the TT FH so can't check motor used)
reckon gears n mosfet may give her some guts she deserves
Ian_Gere
Retired Moderator
- Apr 1, 2012
- 6,417
- 2,050
You may be opening yourself up to a world of hurt fitting a high speed motor with high speed gears - by reputation I'd say that the G&P M120 motor will handle the additional torque required when using high speed gears, but the problems will come from how fast the GB then cycles. It will be very fast. Parts which I would expect to fail include the piston teeth and the cut off lever, but the tappet plate and its spring may also suffer. You definitely will have to fit a delayer to the sector gear, or BB's will not feed - I would use one of the funky shaped plastic ones because they create a wider cam than the circular brass type, which holds the tappet plate back slightly longer; they can also be fitted either way up which gives you a choice regarding the timing of the delay; and, of course, being plastic, they are easily reshaped if the timing needs to be tweaked (which it may very well need to be at such high cycle speeds).
Unless you have bought a MOSFET which controls ROF by variable resistance, as well as active breaking, I would stick with a pretty standard speed motor. I'll be interested to find out how well the G&G stock motor performs with the gears, specifically whether you get the kind of initial trigger response you expect compared to the new ROF, because I suspect that it may not be quite torque-y enough. An SHS high torque motor or ICS Turbo 3000 would be good choices if the stock one proves insufficient.
Unless you have bought a MOSFET which controls ROF by variable resistance, as well as active breaking, I would stick with a pretty standard speed motor. I'll be interested to find out how well the G&G stock motor performs with the gears, specifically whether you get the kind of initial trigger response you expect compared to the new ROF, because I suspect that it may not be quite torque-y enough. An SHS high torque motor or ICS Turbo 3000 would be good choices if the stock one proves insufficient.
- Thread starter
- #33
I was thinking the same thing Ian so I canceled the high-speed motor for now, my gears arrived this morning, but I aren't gonna start shimming it until I have the mosfet (Airfet - active braking) installed.. I hope its here tomorrow so I can get started.
I'll stick to the standard motor and see what happens, its a noisy motor but then again its a noisy gun with the Sound Hog.
I'll stick to the standard motor and see what happens, its a noisy motor but then again its a noisy gun with the Sound Hog.
- Thread starter
- #34
Well, she now has the 13:1 gears and active braking mosfet in and shimmed properly, wired to deans, and after a lot of pissing about I'm finally happy with her.
The sound of the vid sounds nothing like the gun, the gearbox is quiet and the pop from the soundhog is nice,crisp and loud.
Hmm also stuck a sniper style M4 grip on there too, all I'm waiting for is the stubby stock which I hope is here soon as I won't get the buffer tube back on without desoldering the mosfet and I doubt I'd be able to cram all that crap in the crane stock.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNMFbkQPc30
The sound of the vid sounds nothing like the gun, the gearbox is quiet and the pop from the soundhog is nice,crisp and loud.
Hmm also stuck a sniper style M4 grip on there too, all I'm waiting for is the stubby stock which I hope is here soon as I won't get the buffer tube back on without desoldering the mosfet and I doubt I'd be able to cram all that crap in the crane stock.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNMFbkQPc30
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Sitting Duck
Supporters
- May 11, 2014
- 4,894
- 1,735
well she sounds quicker but vid sound & wobble is a shame
what battery you running in that atm - don't matter coz stubby
will let ya shove anything in with less messing about etc....
well done - see how she goes but she got some oomph in her now
what battery you running in that atm - don't matter coz stubby
will let ya shove anything in with less messing about etc....
well done - see how she goes but she got some oomph in her now
- Thread starter
- #36
Yeah I noticed it was a little shakey and the lights crap in here, its much faster compared to the original vid, I'll see how it goes this sunday.
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Sitting Duck
Supporters
- May 11, 2014
- 4,894
- 1,735
Just opened my std FH expecting to see same CM gbox as CM18.....
nope - first thing is FH has philip screws not allen key ones - no biggy
next thing FH has 8mm bearings in - CM18 had bushings - oohh might not be ideal for 30+ rof
another thing I noticed and would explain pi$$ poor rof.....
Torquey gear set ffs - reckon about 23:1 instead of usual 18:1 double bollox ffs
A very rough ballpark way to estimate ratio....
see how many turns of bevel gear it takes to do 1 full cycle
then multiply by 3......
in this case it is about 7.75 turns on bevel - 23.25 !!!!!
this does work out about right - 6.25 = 18.75
and just over 4 on a nutty 12:1 set of gears
So that has pi$$ed on my firehawk firework a bit
with 23:1 Vs the other 18:1 ratio I will be way off hit 31+ rof
instead be at 24 I think I have worked out even with fet & high speed motor
so the CM18 will have a higher rate of fire
Damn it - was expecting a quick install of spring silent head with proper matching cylinder head
whack a mosfet in there and be going nuts blowing peeps (and the life of the gbox too)
Not really got a quality steel 18:1 set to hand either so unsure what way to go now
might just shove a new spring & normal piston with better seal & leave rest stock
or spend weekend trying other crap & short stroke
Damn you G&G - even stuck 2 different G&G motors in there though think FH is a tad more oomphy
(little bit more resistance when turning motor by hand compared to CM18 motor)
Bloody hell - that is 4 things different on these 2 G&G's - only about £10-£15 difference but the box
is very differently put together - what was gonna be a couple of hours is now a couple of days if get parts
not a happy chappy ducky
but if the OP's gears were like mine - quite likely then that would deffo explain why latest FH's rof suck
nope - first thing is FH has philip screws not allen key ones - no biggy
next thing FH has 8mm bearings in - CM18 had bushings - oohh might not be ideal for 30+ rof
another thing I noticed and would explain pi$$ poor rof.....
Torquey gear set ffs - reckon about 23:1 instead of usual 18:1 double bollox ffs
A very rough ballpark way to estimate ratio....
see how many turns of bevel gear it takes to do 1 full cycle
then multiply by 3......
in this case it is about 7.75 turns on bevel - 23.25 !!!!!
this does work out about right - 6.25 = 18.75
and just over 4 on a nutty 12:1 set of gears
So that has pi$$ed on my firehawk firework a bit
with 23:1 Vs the other 18:1 ratio I will be way off hit 31+ rof
instead be at 24 I think I have worked out even with fet & high speed motor
so the CM18 will have a higher rate of fire
Damn it - was expecting a quick install of spring silent head with proper matching cylinder head
whack a mosfet in there and be going nuts blowing peeps (and the life of the gbox too)
Not really got a quality steel 18:1 set to hand either so unsure what way to go now
might just shove a new spring & normal piston with better seal & leave rest stock
or spend weekend trying other crap & short stroke
Damn you G&G - even stuck 2 different G&G motors in there though think FH is a tad more oomphy
(little bit more resistance when turning motor by hand compared to CM18 motor)
Bloody hell - that is 4 things different on these 2 G&G's - only about £10-£15 difference but the box
is very differently put together - what was gonna be a couple of hours is now a couple of days if get parts
not a happy chappy ducky
but if the OP's gears were like mine - quite likely then that would deffo explain why latest FH's rof suck
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Sitting Duck
Supporters
- May 11, 2014
- 4,894
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chucked in a cheapo alloy set 18:1
needed loads of shims but nice, done aoe on stock piston/cyl head etc....
(no fet yet - hey that rhymes)
put back the "powerful motor" G&G motor in there
connected up a 11.1v/12v and let rip......
Wow - that motor does seem a bit more grunt that stock 18000 G&G one
lets give her some abuse n see what for.....
oooooppppssss then cheapo gears didn't last long
think they just stripped - kicka$$ quality src gears
(this happened before pushing cheapo thin teeth alloy/tin gears so I know they are boned)
no tappet/nozzle movement - zzzzz yup sector not going - gears shagged
ahhh well didn't they last but 18:1 deffo better than 23:1
ordered 5 lots of SHS / A&K 18:1 from gunfire + a few other bits to get free shipping
(aprox £8 a set with a 11% discount code atm - that is my lot until new year (hopefully))
think I might change my avatar to Frank Spencer at this rate
2 motors I was on about
the standard is in Raider & CM18 (bushings & 18:1 gears - checked & Raider S is also 18:1)
the powerful shiny one was in the lame FireHawk with torque 23:1 gears & bearings etc....
So if OP's lame FH was like mine - shiny power motor, philip head screws 23:1 gears
then a change of gears & fet would see him right
unsure how brilliant bearings would be in ultra-whippy rps setup but yeah think if anybody
gets a new "lamer" FH - then all you need is say a 18:1 or 16:1 gear set in there chaps
(still pi$$ poor AOE & piston ring seal but most stock guns are like this and can fix when fitting gears)
needed loads of shims but nice, done aoe on stock piston/cyl head etc....
(no fet yet - hey that rhymes)
put back the "powerful motor" G&G motor in there
connected up a 11.1v/12v and let rip......
Wow - that motor does seem a bit more grunt that stock 18000 G&G one
lets give her some abuse n see what for.....
oooooppppssss then cheapo gears didn't last long
think they just stripped - kicka$$ quality src gears
(this happened before pushing cheapo thin teeth alloy/tin gears so I know they are boned)
no tappet/nozzle movement - zzzzz yup sector not going - gears shagged
ahhh well didn't they last but 18:1 deffo better than 23:1
ordered 5 lots of SHS / A&K 18:1 from gunfire + a few other bits to get free shipping
(aprox £8 a set with a 11% discount code atm - that is my lot until new year (hopefully))
think I might change my avatar to Frank Spencer at this rate
2 motors I was on about
the standard is in Raider & CM18 (bushings & 18:1 gears - checked & Raider S is also 18:1)
the powerful shiny one was in the lame FireHawk with torque 23:1 gears & bearings etc....
So if OP's lame FH was like mine - shiny power motor, philip head screws 23:1 gears
then a change of gears & fet would see him right
unsure how brilliant bearings would be in ultra-whippy rps setup but yeah think if anybody
gets a new "lamer" FH - then all you need is say a 18:1 or 16:1 gear set in there chaps
(still pi$$ poor AOE & piston ring seal but most stock guns are like this and can fix when fitting gears)
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