Does a real firearm license allow me to not be a UKARA registered player?

We know, chap, the body of law on firearms and RIFs is a Frankenstein's monster patchwork that really could do with being repealed and replaced by one single statute covering the lot in a consistent fashion.  But that isn't likely to work out in shooters' favour, whatever we're packing.

GeorgePlaysAirsoft said:
We all know the only thing that matters is: Is it for use at an insured event?
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Or the other 6 reasons, but point taken.

So all things being equal i'd rather sell to someone with about 100 posts on an airsoft forum over someone with an FAC.
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I fully agree.  Actually, as a private seller, I'd prefer that to a UKARA number which I can't even personally check is assigned to the buyer.

As ever - very academic as maybe about a dozen people have fallen foul of s.37.
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On information, belief, or assumption?

I'm not aware of any prosecutions under VCRA, let alone convictions.  I'd love to see some case law.

 
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^FOIA to home office (though its a few years out of date - was 18 not 12 -my memory is failing me! Apologies for screenshot - best i can whilst having a vape break at work!

Edit just noticed in my post i wrote s.37 not s.36 - do bear my many errors in mind should you consider any of my posts to be legal advice haha

Cheers

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Nice one, thanks.  I fully admit to being surprised that it's so many, and appears to be increasing as they get a taste for it.  One to keep an eye one.

 
Mooseuk said:
If one can pass the steps to get a FAC there is no logical reason they shouldn't be allowed a BB gun, 
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Well, tbf, they could have a BB gun that fires 4.5mm steel BBs if they can prove they're over 18.
They just can't have a BB gun that fires 6mm plastic BBs, that's a realistic imitation of a firearm - unless they have a defence as described in the addendum to the VCRA (or whichever bit of legal stuff is relevant).
I don't think logic comes into it anywhere, unfortunately... 

 
Tommikka said:
No, they are not toys

A toy gun does not shoot 

If you look on the side it probably has “this is not a toy” written there
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This is a joke right? Airsoft guns are toys and always have been, I remember being able to buy pistols in newsagents!

When I wanted to buy my first 'proper' airsoft gun it annoyed me that I could buy a legitimate firearm easier than a toy that shoots plastic BB's, but I understand why UKARA was implemented (although as a reenactor I didn't need it). Still find it a bit stupid though.

GeorgePlaysAirsoft said:
I get what you are saying - but that essientially comes down to a judge of character, not the FAC itself.
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Playing devil's advocate, my argument to that would be that a large part of getting a FAC/SGC/Explosives is down to judge of character. You need references (as I'm sure you know) and to also pass the 'attitude test' with a Firearms Officer. 

GeorgePlaysAirsoft said:
The question is: How does an FAC demonstrate that you will be using that RIF for skirmishing (at an insured event) with? It doesn't - that is that.
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You don't need to use a RIF at an insured event to own or buy one, so it's a null point in my opinion.

 
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^re judge of character -i agree, my point is we are using FAC as short hand for good character, but that is irrelevant anyway.

2nd point - agreed but if we are just talking about the airsoft defence (against being charged with importing/ selling/ manufacturing) then that hinges on making the rif 'avaiable for... organisation of permitted activities...'

 
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Getting an FAC can be just as much about the FOs attitude/charactor as your own.

 
Slamz said:
This is a joke right? Airsoft guns are toys and always have been, I remember being able to buy pistols in newsagents!
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Something we play games with may not be a toy  in the eyes of the law

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Mooseuk said:
Well what does that make a nerf gun, or for that matter an elastic band gun? Or even, if we want to be pedantic, a bubble gun? Its "shooting" bubbles after all. 
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A browse around Smyths showed Very deliberate avoidance of the word ‘toy’ on Nerf Blasters & launchers, a few safety warnings and also the liability avoiding “This is not a protective device” on goggles 

The only “toy” guns I could find were non firing orange tipped cowboy guns to be used under adult supervision 

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GeorgePlaysAirsoft said:
Thanks but the police didn't issue me a FAC by mistake!!

As for logic - we are talking about replica imitation firearms. Can something logically be both X and a replica of X?.. i dunno!? In anycase we aren't talking about what is logical, rather what is legal. 

Anyway - the law does consider people who have an FAC and want to sell/import/manufacture a RIF - it treats them exactly the same as anybody else.

The question is: How does an FAC demonstrate that you will be using that RIF for skirmishing (at an insured event) with? It doesn't - that is that.

Cheers
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Firearm and replica firearm were discussed in detail in the thread I linked to above

Without the clause quoted in my link airsoft guns would have been low powered air weapons under the firearms act as we’ll as the VCRA which would have put them at risk of conflicting definitions or being exempt from the VCRA 

An air gun that is a replica of a full real steel firearm is treated as an unlicenced firearm in firearms legislation and not a replica in the VCRA (as long as it is within the legal limits)

Paintball guns slot into various parts of firearms legislation and are generally considered low power air weapons with the additional factor of frangible projectiles.  Shoot anything other than a frangible paintball or a first strike shaped projectile and you risk a firearms offence (First strikes were subject to recent testing which approved them but also resulted in anything else being stated as unrecognised.  (Rubber reusable reballs have been dodgy for many years and are now considered unlawful, but are still in use)

The status of paintball under the VCRA has been very grey with differing opinions among officials, the most recent statement being that recognition under firearms legislation renders them exempt from the VCRA as they are not Imitations ..... however the decision could be argued either way in court

But coming down to the sale of a RIF airsoft gun, it’s up to the seller to be satisfied with the buyers ‘defence’

A firearms certificate is not one of the defences under the VCRA

The judgement of my character recognises me as a fine upstanding member of the community and I am empowered to sign off peoples identity for passports and driving licences

I have run airsoft events, but I have no need and no valid defence to buy an airsoft RIF myself 

 
Tommikka said:
Something we play games with may not be a toy  in the eyes of the law

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You finding a manufacturer/supplier with a 'not a toy' warning doesn't make them not a toy in the eyes of the law. They shoot little bits of plastic, they also can be two toned so you don't even need a defence to buy one! The only thing that falls under 'the eyes of the law' is the fact SOME look like realistic firearms, and that's just to do with the way they look, not the fact they shoot little bits of plastic. 

Are you just trying to deny them being toys to make it seem like you don't run about in the woods of a weekend shooting toy guns at people? ??

 
Slamz said:
You finding a manufacturer/supplier with a 'not a toy' warning doesn't make them not a toy in the eyes of the law. They shoot little bits of plastic, they also can be two toned so you don't even need a defence to buy one! The only thing that falls under 'the eyes of the law' is the fact SOME look like realistic firearms, and that's just to do with the way they look, not the fact they shoot little bits of plastic. 

Are you just trying to deny them being toys to make it seem like you don't run about in the woods of a weekend shooting toy guns at people? ??
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We’ll have to agree to disagree

If the law gets involved it’ll be treated as a low power air weapon.  Airsoft guns are enough of ‘not a toy’ to have their own statement added to firearms legislation to state that they are not considered firearms to enable them to be IFs or RIFs under the VCRA.  Along with other restrictions on age etc ..... which aligns with air weapon legislation

And actually I have not run around the woods shooting people with anything for 2 or 3 years.

I have however run around and stood around getting shot by people in that time 

I plan to shoot a lot of people in 2019

 
Tommikka said:
If the law gets involved it’ll be treated as a low power air weapon. 
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You'll probably find if you end up causing enough of an issue that the police are involved (i.e you hold up the local Lidl) you'll get fucked with the full force of the Firearms act and they'll try and pin a section 5 offence on you (and rightly so) which doesn't really help my 'toy' case, but that's just due to the way that they look and the fear they'll cause your nan.

We’ll have to agree to disagree
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Deal.

 
They are not related, having an FAC has no bearing on purchasing a RIF.

You do not need UKARA to buy a RIF, as long as you have a valid VCRA defence. UKARA is simply an easy route to have that defence.

As for the above, Slamz is correct. Committing an offence with an airsoft gun may warrant prosecution as if it were an illegally held firearm. Not a “low powered air gun”. The low powered air gun thing is more about your BBs or Pellets landing in a road or someone else’s property. Not using a RIF as if it were a section 5 firearm.

 
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Rogerborg said:
Nobody needs anything to buy or attempt to buy a RIF.

Go and speak to the local airsoft shop.
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I'm glad Rog has said this, it's what I've been thinking all along, the laws are pretty crap & sometimes a little grey, go along to the shop, have a friendly chat & show them your fac & any other relevant documents, hopefully common sense will prevail ?.

 
Just a thought - I think UKARA becomes relevant for internet sales more than shop sales.
It's an easy way for you to show the shop that there is a defence for them to sell to you, without them having to know you or anything about you.
In my two local shops, they know me and they don't ask for a defence. 

 
rocketdogbert said:
It’s because Airsoft are Realistic IMITATION Firearms, not a real ones. 

They have different uses entirely.

I was at RoE in Hadleigh recently, they’re an Airsoft, Airifle and Firearms dealer. They deal with the police all the time, up to and including section 5, and they couldn’t sell an Airsoft pistol to a firearms officer (to help him with dog training) without a letter from his Chief Constable. 
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I shoot on the daily basis, I own a .223 and a Smith and Wesson M&P 15-22 which is basically a semi automatic .22 carbine, I am always confused how I am allowed to own weapons that can kill, and cause life threatening injuries yet not a pea shooter like a black airsoft gun! Airsoft is just for fun and if you have a firearms that gives you access to imitation firearms like M4 remakes (that's my M&P .22) well I don't understand why I couldn't own a simple airsoft gun... I have had all the medicals and the inspections from my local police so it's not like I am going to rob a bank with an airsoft gun... or brandish it in public.

 
CharlieS. said:
I shoot on the daily basis, I own a .223 and a Smith and Wesson M&P 15-22 which is basically a semi automatic .22 carbine, I am always confused how I am allowed to own weapons that can kill, and cause life threatening injuries yet not a pea shooter like a black airsoft gun! Airsoft is just for fun and if you have a firearms that gives you access to imitation firearms like M4 remakes (that's my M&P .22) well I don't understand why I couldn't own a simple airsoft gun... I have had all the medicals and the inspections from my local police so it's not like I am going to rob a bank with an airsoft gun... or brandish it in public.
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That’s the law.

I know exactly what real guns are, plenty of real steel owners here. What relevance does having an FAC  have towards owning a toy gun? Zero. 
 

I guess petition your local MP to get slots added to an FAC for RIF’s ?

 
CharlieS. said:
I don't understand why I couldn't own a simple airsoft gun... I have had all the medicals and the inspections from my local police so it's not like I am going to rob a bank with an airsoft gun... or brandish it in public.
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<them-feels-bro.png>

We know, it's ridiculous.  Particularly when air guns that look identical to either the real steel and the airsoft version can be bought and sold without any sort of loicence or defence; or you can buy a two-tone airsoft IF plus a rattle-can of matt black from Poundland if you have stick-'em-up intent and don't know that air guns exist.

Given the attitudes to anything remotely gun related, and the gradual legislative creep towards prohibited-by-default and prove-your-innocence, it's a wonder that we're still permitted any of the above.

I'm just enjoying it while it lasts, and It's not rocket surgery to find ways around the UKARA wait.

 
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