Customs police came to my home

[Pseudotectonic]

I meant a big warning label, one similar to those "FRAGILE" or "THIS WAY UP" or other supposedly easy to see labels. Although the precise wording is still up for debate.

"Pro-forma" RIF declaration: There is a UPS version of RIF declaration form somewhere in this forum you can search for it. I tried to put together a better looking version but I have yet to finalise the format, but essentially it is the same form. Find the UPS version and use that one if you need to fill in a copy.

The UKARA# should go in the declaration form. But additionally putting it in the address cannot hurt.

 

[EvilMonkee]

What even are you on about? Someone acting on behalf of another person doesn't mean they are the same person. Customs agents are not the one seizing your parcel.

I get you are mad about UPS. Which is fine. I am not saying UPS is good either.

Let me spell this out for you in terms you will be able to understand.

1. UPS (or other parcel company) take receipt of your package as part of their business as a parcel company.

2. Another part of their business is acting as a customs agent on behalf of HM Customs.  

3. They go through the Customs processes on behalf of HM Customs, levy the appropriate charges etc. 

4. This all occurs simultaneous with their handling of your parcel and they have these magnificent things called bonded warehouses were they can store all these imported goods legally till the charges are paid.

5. If something comes to them in their capacity as a courier for which someone has no defence (ie a RIF without a UKARA) they act in their other capacity as a Customs agent (on behalf of HM Customs) and seize the article.

Now, all this doesn't occur with every courier.  Royal Mail/Parcelforce actually use HM Customs to do this but UPS do it all.

This happens because otherwise HM Customs would be inundated with parcels and everything would slow to a crawl.  Not too hard to understand is it?

 

[Rogerborg]

bonded warehouses

Oh, I know those!  You're not supposed to be permitted to be allowed to film there because they're specially protected critical secure private government sites, mate, it's not allowed.

 

[Pseudotectonic]

Let me spell this out for you in terms you will be able to understand.

1. UPS (or other parcel company) take receipt of your package as part of their business as a parcel company.

2. Another part of their business is acting as a customs agent on behalf of HM Customs.  

3. They go through the Customs processes on behalf of HM Customs, levy the appropriate charges etc. 

4. This all occurs simultaneous with their handling of your parcel and they have these magnificent things called bonded warehouses were they can store all these imported goods legally till the charges are paid.

5. If something comes to them in their capacity as a courier for which someone has no defence (ie a RIF without a UKARA) they act in their other capacity as a Customs agent (on behalf of HM Customs) and seize the article.

Now, all this doesn't occur with every courier.  Royal Mail/Parcelforce actually use HM Customs to do this but UPS do it all.

This happens because otherwise HM Customs would be inundated with parcels and everything would slow to a crawl.  Not too hard to understand is it?

First, you gotta stop that condescending tone of yours.

Second, I think you could have well made this up, do you work there? Do you have source?

Thirdly, that is besides the point, you still want to stick the declaration on the parcel, so it won't get missed, by anyone. Your entire argument started with this method won't work for UPS. If UPS is seizing the parcel as you said, then there is no problem. Anecdotally (from this forum) UPS seems to be always asking for it anyway, so pre-attaching it will surely smooth things out, as a matter of best practice.

 

[Tackle]

First, you gotta stop that condescending tone of yours.

Second, I think you could have well made this up, do you work there? Do you have source?

Thirdly, that is besides the point, you still want to stick the declaration on the parcel, so it won't get missed, by anyone. Your entire argument started with this method won't work for UPS. If UPS is seizing the parcel as you said, then there is no problem. Anecdotally (from this forum) UPS seems to be always asking for it anyway, so pre-attaching it will surely smooth things out, as a matter of best practice.

Everything that EvilMonkee wrote is correct, & couriers, such as ups, face large fines if they fail to adhere to the rules set by hmrc (& ukba).

 

[Pseudotectonic]

Ok, if UPS (or other couriers) are the ones checking for defence and seizing parcels  (can UPS connect to UKARA database?), surely all the more reason to pre-attach the declaration form. Because that declaration form has the defence.

And if, for any reason, the pre-attached declaration was missed by HMRC/UPS/other couriers, and it goes to the HMRC/border force/police, or firearms officer or whatever. They look at the parcel, they see the big words of "VCRA IMPORT SEE DECLARATION", they will look for the attached declaration again, and checks the RIF, checks the UKARA#, they see your defence, they releases the parcel.

And if, somehow, all these people have missed both the big label of "VCRA IMPORT SEE DECLARATION" and the pre-attached declaration form, you will have a better case if you decide to e.g. file a notice of claim or a complain to them or challenge the legality of the seizure.

I don't see the downsides of this. I think it is best practice. This can prevent customs police coming to your home.

 

[GiantKiwi]

Ok, if UPS (or other couriers) are the ones checking for defence and seizing parcels  (can UPS connect to UKARA database?), surely all the more reason to pre-attach the declaration form. Because that declaration form has the defence.

And if, for any reason, the pre-attached declaration was missed by HMRC/UPS/other couriers, and it goes to the HMRC/border force/police, or firearms officer or whatever. They look at the parcel, they see the big words of "VCRA IMPORT SEE DECLARATION", they will look for the attached declaration again, and checks the RIF, checks the UKARA#, they see your defence, they releases the parcel.

And if, somehow, all these people have missed both the big label of "VCRA IMPORT SEE DECLARATION" and the pre-attached declaration form, you will have a better case if you decide to e.g. file a notice of claim or a complain to them or challenge the legality of the seizure.

I don't see the downsides of this. I think it is best practice. This can prevent customs police coming to your home.

Best laid intentions.

All of this is dependent on the person dealing with it being well informed enough to know what to do. Most are not, no amount of extraneous paperwork is going to prevent it.

 

[Pseudotectonic]

The worst can always happen, which is why you want to minimise its chances.

If for any reason, in a near-impossible event where you get charged for the VRCA import, you can say, you provided a defence, and they didn't check it!

 

[Tommikka]

Oh, I know those!  You're not supposed to be permitted to be allowed to film there because they're specially protected critical secure private government sites, mate, it's not allowed.

As a thread diversion - he was talked to by a couple of members of staff, and allowed to continue

Noting that he took ‘care’ to clarify which areas were public vs private, and then decided to entirely disregard that when the path came to an end

He also opted to film, highlight and publish the access controls which aids anti ‘audit’ claims of using auditing as an excuse to conduct hostile reconnaissance.

Like many if not most auditors he says he is filming for general interest because he has seen their lorries around.  Why not just be honest and open that it’s for YouTube monetisation ?

…. and near the end a little bit of ignorance / bigging up that a container tamper seal means that it contains ‘high value’ goods.

It just means that (provided you document the tag number) that the container hasn’t been opened since the last check

 

[ak2m4]

@Pseudotectonic all good intentions, I agree 100%. 

(can UPS connect to UKARA database?

I highly doubt it UPS has access.   Guessing Border Force has some type of access? Asked my friend who works in IT for them and he's never heard of it before.   I remember someone here doing a FOI check and it gave back with nothing.  Given the fact UKARA is owned by a UK retailer doesn't make sense for them to make it easy to import.

 

[Tackle]

I think we as a community need clarification on how EXACTLY does the system work (or how its supposed to work but doesnt?), what inter-agency communication there is, including how involved the carriers can be, & what we, or the offshore retailers can do to ensure the process is as smooth & trouble free as possible.

Who here is a member of, or ideally involved in the hierarchy of any of the airsoft associations such as ukasa (might have got that acronym wrong ?) ect, maybe they can be convinced to open dialogue with ukba/hmrc/carriers to ascertain the precise process, & look at addressing what's going wrong ?.

My take is it's likely lack of knowledge along the chain, retailers not labelling goods properly, & carriers/ukba/hmrc not knowing enough about airsoft & it's limitations,  being blinded by the fact our kit resemble a gun, so therefore must be a gun?

 

[EvilMonkee]

First, you gotta stop that condescending tone of yours.

Helps if you actually listen in the first place when someone tells you something then I won't need to spell it out for you

 

[Pseudotectonic]

Some preliminary research. Perhaps not precisely down to every detail, but should be the outline of how it goes.

1. Skimming through some gov.uk pages it seems carriers use something called a Customs Declaration Service (CDS) electronic system to do declarations. This is what UPS uses (https://www.ups.com/assets/resources/webcontent/supplychain/media/UK-Importer's-Guide-Preparing-for-the-CDS-System.pdf).

  • CDS is pretty boring stuff and mostly entering codes (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLnf76xyVCg). Gov.uk has some guidance on how to complete a declaration on CDS (https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/uk-trade-tariff-volume-3-for-cds--2#imports:-guidance-on-completing-an-import-declaration-for-the-customs-declaration-service).

  • Carriers like UPS handle this because they are "Third-party representatives applying for authorisation" "Using someone to make declarations for you" (https://www.gov.uk/guidance/using-simplified-declarations-for-imports).

  • The precise codes do not really matter, at this point it appears to be a bunch of codes for some basic sorting, and codes can change. Let UPS handle this, we cannot streamline this for them externally.

2. After the carrier submits a declaration in the CDS, HMRC will send a response, and may ask for "supporting documents for a customs check to clear your goods" (https://www.gov.uk/guidance/making-an-import-supplementary-declaration).

  • "Border Force monitors and controls imports of firearms (including their component parts), ammunition and offensive weapons into the UK across all modes of transport and international mail." (https://www.gov.uk/guidance/import-controls-on-offensive-weapons) So naturally it would be Border Force who looks at this declaration.

  • UPS (or any carrier) are not firearms expert. Judging by the formatting of the UPS version of RIF declaration form, I am guessing UPS sends the PDF directly in CDS as part of the declaration process. (Papers/certificates can be scanned as PDF.) I don't think CDS software would have fields for UPS to enter the colour of an IF etc., I think the RIF declaration.pdf is for Border Force to read, by a human.

  • It is then up to Border Force to determine whether it is firearms or RIF and act accordingly. (Firearms Act or VCRA)

    ◦ Border Force may or may not want an inspection. How inspections are done is unknown but I am guessing a firearms expert from Border Force is gonna ask for some pictures from UPS to identify if it is airsoft (or as stated in the declaration). I don't think the firearm experts are running between warehouses checking stuff in person, they don't need to do that unless necessary, I mean, a firearms expert can probably tell apart airsoft from real firearms just from photos, and they probably do that first. And they probably don't check every single import, but by random sample or anything suspicious or if the firearms expert has nothing else to do.

    ◦ If it is an RIF (VCRA), they want to see defence.

    ◦ If it is firearms (Firearms Act), they want to see certificates and whatnot.

    ◦ If it is an RIF and you have no defence, it will probably be seized and you might get a visit. (Because suspected VCRA offence.)

    ◦ In a way, the RIF declaration for a VCRA import should be functionally equivalent to a "certificate" for a firearm.

3. There is a time limit for making declarations. After which perhaps it increases the chances of inspection, and again, if they found an RIF and no defence, you might get a visit. (Because suspected VCRA offence.)

4. How Border Force decides how to proceed after receiving the RIF declaration should follow this chart https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/983345/Notice_to_importers_2944_-_firearms_and_ammunition.pdf

  • To help guide them to the correct procedures, the declaration should make clear it is not firearms but an RIF under VCRA. And has defence i.e. UKARA#.

  • Again judging by the UPS version of RIF declaration form, it does exactly that.

  • Border Force should be the one checking UKARA#.

5. Normally, UPS emails you to ask for the RIF declaration. You fill it in, send it back, they file it, job done.

6. There are several ways this process can be disrupted, and how it can be solved.

  • At any point, it is only a problem when the parcel is without declaration and defence.

  • UPS losing your parcel: nothing you can do, but a missing parcel with declaration and defence on it can possibly save you time and visit from police if UPS finds it, alerting Border Force about firearms, and having no firearms certificate / no RIF declaration and defence.

  • UPS forgetting to ask you for declaration / defence, leading to seizure by Border Force who can't find a declaration or defence: Attaching the RIF declaration solves the problem.

  • UPS being late: having it attached saves them time and yours.

  • UPS totally missed your RIF declaration attached, leading to Border Force inspecting parcel: Border Force finds the paperwork, problem solved.

  • UPS lost your RIF declaration but not your parcel: Include your phone and email on the address so UPS can contact you for it.

  • UPS or Border Force seizing your parcel despite having the RIF declaration: unlikely unless your RIF is overpowered or otherwise illegal, nothing you can do other than telling the seller to check the joules. And don't fill in a wrong answer (over legal limit).

  • UPS and Border Force somehow all missed your RIF declaration, despite you clearly displayed your email and phone, and clearly attached the declaration: very unlikely, perhaps tell the seller to include an extra copy INSIDE the parcel, so there is no way it can get lost and end up not having a declaration/defence during inspection.

  • All the anecdotes seem to suggest they don't seize your stuff unless there is a reason, i.e. it is not by chance. If you have the declaration and a defence, and they seize your stuff, you can challenge them.

7. I suspect UPS's internal procedures are poorly documented. They probably have a post-it somewhere that says "airsoft -> get RIF declaration form -> put in CDS." This could be verified if somebody can get in touch with them.

8. I would not expect UPS (or any carrier) to be firearm experts. But they are the ones talking to Border Force, who deals with firearms.

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Therefore:

1. The general strategy would remain.

  • Pre-attach the RIF declaration form (which includes your defence).

  • Include your email and phone somewhere obvious.

  • Put an extra copy inside the box.

2. We can even refine the method:

  • The UPS version of RIF declaration form is the baseline, and should be universal across carriers, because it is Border Force who actually reads it.

  • A paper version of the RIF declaration.pdf should therefore be:

    ◦ Obvious to see when attached to the parcel.

    ◦ "UPS compatible" so it doesn't confuse UPS's post-it notes. It needs to be as foolproof as possible for UPS to fill in their tracking number before uploading.

    ◦ Easy to read, be very clear about it being RIF/IF/etc. and not firearms. Helps Border Force follow the correct procedures.

    ◦ Contains the VCRA defence. Contains UKARA# and address etc. for Border Force to check on the UKARA database.

    ◦ Probably helps if the declaration form has formatting with less chance of accidentally putting in "wrong answers" like too high a joule output. Perhaps in the form of hint boxes of UK power limits.

    ◦ Easy to be scanned into PDF. Helps UPS submitting their stuff. Bonus point for accurate OCR to save the poor guy at Border Force some typing.

    ◦ Includes your contact details, so UPS or Border Force can contact you for any reason.

    ◦ Includes extra copies inside the box alongside the actual RIF, for helping with inspection.

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Quick link: the current (?) UPS RIF declaration "RIF DEC Aug22.doc":
https://airsoft-forums.uk/topic/53821-ups-rif-declaration-for-parts/?do=findComment&comment=511495

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Looking forward to more information in either direction to push this along. But so far, the UPS form seems to be solid.