British Airsoft Club?

[Baz JJ]

I think the main issue that people are flagging is that they say they are not a retailer, but the people setting it up are a retailer who were frustrated with UKARA.

It sounds like they have set BAC up as a non profit company using the same address as their retail business. There is nothing illegal in this. Perhaps they are saying that BAC is not a retailer or trade association which is true.

Does it really matter ?

When I started airsofting, I was obliged to attend 4 games at the same site, pay £10 and then wait almost another week, in order to get my UKARA defence come through. Every day waiting seemed like a week because I was keen to buy my first RIF. So, if there is an easier way, Im happy that somebody can charge less and people can get a defence as soon as they have met the 3 game criteria.

I have registered with the BAC, put in my three last games and will see how long it takes for my account to go active.

At the moment, I haven't been asked to pay the £6.99 fee so we will see.

 

[Longshot]

No matter which way you cut it, UKARA, BAC and Luther are all primarily for the benefit of the retailer/seller.

Due to a constantly repeated series of misconceptions, and a misunderstanding of how the English language operates, people who want to buy RIFs have come to believe that they need to 'get/have' a defence and need to have played 3 games to achieve this. They don't need either.

Firstly buyers need to 'provide' a defence, which, contrary to popular belief, does not mean the same as 'have a defence.' Rather it means provide a defence for the SELLER, who is the person that will be breaking the law.

Secondly for the seller to establish a defence FOR THEMSELVES all they actually need to do is satisfy themselves that the RIF is being bought by someone who intends to use it for airsofting; there is NO mandatory number of games or time period whatsoever (which is why even founding members of the UKARA have sold RIFs to people who have never even played a SINGLE airsoft game before, and they have been well within the law to do so).

All these schemes will benefit the buyer as a secondary effect because retailers/sellers want an easy way to provide a defence for THEMSELVES, the real problem is that buyers have been fooled into believing they NEED schemes like this when all they are there for is to remove some legwork for retailers/sellers.

 

[Deva]

I think people know the technicalities, it's just often easier to word it otherwise. If someone says you must have 'UKARA registration' you know what they mean, right? It's just semantics.

 

[M_P]

It sounds like they have set BAC up as a non profit company using the same address as their retail business. There is nothing illegal in this. Perhaps they are saying that BAC is not a retailer or trade association which is true.

If it's non-profit where does the money go? The alternative suggests various methods in which they could give back to the airsoft community with the funds that are paid to them.

Although they say they aren't a retailer, it's clearly heavily linked to red alert airsoft, there's no two ways about it./

When I started airsofting, I was obliged to attend 4 games at the same site, pay £10 and then wait almost another week, in order to get my UKARA defence come through. Every day waiting seemed like a week because I was keen to buy my first RIF. So, if there is an easier way, Im happy that somebody can charge less and people can get a defence as soon as they have met the 3 game criteria.

In fairness that is down to your site UKARA is free and only needs 3 games, you could have taken the forms after the 3rd game and sent them off yourself- assuming your site would let you.

Just read this on another forum

Basically some guys that operate a half-assed importing outfit out of their bedroom got fed up that UKARA told them they weren't a proper retailer, then started their own version which is almost identical just with them in control.

Now obviously that doesn't make it fact but equally it doesn't fill me with confidence if that's the case.

The issue that most people had with ukara was that it was ran by a retailer so this although a much improved system (despite having to pay for it) may simply translate over to this too.

 

[Baz JJ]

Personally I dont care where the profit goes. If they want to keep my 6.99 then so be it.

Ive signed up and I might lose a whole seven pounds but I will take the risk.

My site has signed up to them and there appears to be some infrastructure behind it. Ive quizzed the people behind it and Im satisfied.

I will look at what else is around in 2015 if I still need to buy RIFs then and will subscribe accordingly.

 

[Longshot]

I think people know the technicalities, it's just often easier to word it otherwise. If someone says you must have 'UKARA registration' you know what they mean, right? It's just semantics.

That's the problem, I really don't think that the vast majority of people involved in airsoft do know the technicalities at all. After all, nobody 'MUST have UKARA registration' for anything. If anybody tells you that when you try to buy something from them then they're either misinformed about the legal situation or they're effectively just being too lazy or busy (which is what most retailers would argue - hence the establishing of UKARA) to seek another way to establish a defence for themselves.

 

[typefish]

Another thing that wound me up about the UKARA and the way it was implemented by sites was that you could play three games at one site and as happened to me, they made me come back a 4th time to put my paperwork through and then I had to wait the best part of a week for them to process this. While I accepted the three games, I thought it was a bit cheeky to force me to pay for a 4th game there and when you are keen to get going with your own RIF, every days delay seems like a week.

The new schemes being proposed should stop this, although there is nothing to stop the site dragging their heels clicking on the appropriate box in the database.

I laughed when I saw this on the Facebook page.

The retailer thing is odd, but they have registered as a private company limited by guarantee for the BAC. You can check this on the Companies House website. I'm led to believe that type of company is used for non profit companies but it's not something I know a lot about.

Yes, pretty much the only other structure you can have for non-profits in the UK is charitable status, and no way does BAC (or any other list) match that criteria.

 

[Qlimax]

Looking at what's been said and the website etc I'd rather pay a site once a year for my UKARA least I know it stands and it's honest. Also UKARA mainly stands with UKARA registered businesses as there's a non UKARA registered retailer I know of who accepts basically anything to buy RIF's from them. All they check is your age.

 

[Qlimax]

Just had a look at the registration for this as well and think it's a little weird asking for an actual photo of you odd and I already have UKARA but reading this they want to check and confirm with a site something I already hold which is my valid defence.

 

[Baz JJ]

I joined to give it a try and the airsoft site has just confirmed my 3 entries to say that Ive played there when I say I did.

Thats in less than 24 hours and I now have a valid defence from BAC.

I have asked them quite a few questions as I wanted to satisfy myself that their concept had been thought through properly.

I believe the photo is for if you go into a shop in person. They can tie up your photo ID with the database entry. It may even help sites to remember you when you claim you played there last week ? cant see any harm in it.

My main concern now is that for me to move from a site membership card/UKARA, I would like a photo ID membership card confirming that I am a bona-fide airsofter.

BAC's answer is print out your entry on their database and carry it with you but I don't think they are doing as much as they could in this regard.

Just had a look at the registration for this as well and think it's a little weird asking for an actual photo of you odd and I already have UKARA but reading this they want to check and confirm with a site something I already hold which is my valid defence.

 

[Baz JJ]

See post #7 onwards

http://www.airsoft-forums.co.uk/index.php/topic/19836-vcra-2006-no-mention-of-airsofting/

Post script on the photo ID subject as a defence against being stopped by police is that they will try and accommodate it in the next software release, possibly on a print it out for free or get an optional laminated card basis.

Will see if it comes good.

 

[Baz JJ]

Running a poll on a Facebook airsoft group with over 1000 members, its transpiring that around 70% or more of players seem to currently pay nothing for their UKARA membership.

 

[Longshot]

^ I think this is true, but it also depends on what you consider as 'paying for your UKARA membership.'

The fact is that 0% of people actually pay to be on the UKARA database as UKARA don't charge for it, so what else are people paying for? Lots of people talk about their 'UKARA number,' but there's no such thing. You have a site membership number that's kept on the UKARA database; UKARA don't actually issue a number. So to be on the database most people generally need to pay for a site membership to get a number first, therefore I'd suggest that actually more than 70% of people have probably paid something to get onto the database.

The biggest issue is when you've already paid for your membership and then your unscrupulous site charges you extra to send your number off to UKARA. It would be a shame (but not a surprise) if the 30% who say that they have 'paid for UKARA membership' mean that they've had to do that.

 

[Airsoft-Ed]

Longshot, some sites actually do charge a fee to stamp your form and send it off.

Whilst also paying people for membership for other reasons.

So the people who say they've paid, will be saying that because they have actually paid to have their details sent from their site, to a retailer, in order to get on the database.

Whilst the other 70% will be saying that they got their UKARA membership as part of their site membership fee, or for free without being a site member.

 

[Baz JJ]

The point I guess Im making is that we are comparing the merits of UKARA Vs LUTHER Vs BAC.

The latter two are expecting players to finance the records scheme which will primarily be used for retailers to maintain a defence.

If such a high proportion of players currently have UKARA registration which costs them nothing, it is highly unlikely they will be prepared to finance new alternative schemes. Fixed costs over a reduced number of clients means higher prices for those participating per unit.

£5 and 6.99 might be a lot more ?

Has anybody done any proper market research ?

 

[Longshot]

Sorry Ed, my response wasn't very clear. I just meant that if everyone who responded was definitely clear about what 'paying for your UKARA' meant, and the response was still that 30% said they had paid for theirs, that's a really sad state of affairs (and worse than I thought it was).

It also bodes well for your Luther if they can sort this out through automatic updating of attendance records (though it could also mean you meet some opposition from the third of sites out there who seem to be making money from the UKARA system in its current format).

 

[Baz JJ]

Actually, no I have been quite clear to distinguish hidden admin charges in inclusive memberships from free meaning free.

Current score is only 20% are paying. 80% in the poll are getting it done completely free by either doing it themselves or sites doing it for them as a favour.

I read into that that the potential market for whatever scheme you go with is 20% of airsofters over 18 and this market will be divided in equally between the schemes available to them.

 

[Mr_awol]

If a site is currently scamming it's members by asking for an 'admin fee' to stamp forms, update UKARA, etc then what is to stop them from doing the same under either of these superfluous new systems (which, as they cost money themselves, means the player will pay twice)?

Fortunately my site don't indulge in any such shenanigans. You play, they get their money for that, they send your form off and then they renew you as necessary. Hardly a chore and anyone who charges for that service doesn't deserve the customers they are fortunate to have.

 

[Baz JJ]

Interestingly, I paid £10 to get a site membership which only really covers them handling the processing of my UKARA application and the provision of a laminated card with the UKARA number on it. OK they sent everything off for me. I willingly paid for that service thinking that was the way it was normally done everywhere.

Now I have just registered with the BAC and ironically named the same site on my entries there as three games. The same site confirmed this by clicking on the relevant links on their page, within 24 hours. So when the BAC scheme goes live and I pay my £6.99, then I will get the same service for £3.01 less and I can use any site I play at, to keep the defence live, not just the one who instigated the application or who I need to stamp a new form. It saves me having to take pieces of paper to sites for signature ever again.

Incidentally, the other site I sometimes play at, do the UKARA application as part of a £25 per annum membership which has other benefits as well.

As with all these things, you play at the sites you play at for different reasons. How they handle UKARA is not usually a direct influence on that decision. If you are lucky enough to find one that does it free, thats great.

 

[Baz JJ]

The other thing I would say is that apart from the potential market being only 20%, the large retailers can still block these schemes if they wish. If the large retailers want to support UKARA, all they have to do is to refuse to sign up for schemes like BAC and Project Luther and any others that spring up. Whats the point of a player being a member if they cant use the defence to buy any RIF from their preferred retailer ?

I don't understand the retailer politics except that I know some had an issue with UKARA.

It will be interesting to see if PAS, Fire Support, Airsoft World, LWA, Action Hobbies, Zero etc sign in to the scheme.