Any help appreciated on trying to end the FPS/joule Chrono issues at sites.

[Rogerborg]

What next do we have everyone using gas guns re-chrono when the sun comes out?

Yes, we should. Or we should stop quite literally wasting everybody's time by doing voluntary pre-game chrono in the morning.

I'm actually OK with either solution, I mostly object to pointless half-arsed rituals.

 

[Steveocee]

@Rogerborg I play at 2 sites (same operator) who don't do a pre game chrono. He trusts his players to be aware of their weapons. There are always random in game tests but I'm yet to see anyone over and get tugged out mid game.

 

[Adolf Hamster]

as has already been mentioned, as a mechanism to catch a determined cheater there's holes in pretty much any method you care to name.

the best we can hope for is to catch the honest but ignorant cases, the lazy cheaters and follow that up with decent in-game marshalling to weed out those who slip past.

i can't say i agree with the whole "being XYZ over doesn't really hurt any more", if that's the case why not raise the limits? why have limits at all?

it's all well and good to play the manly man who doesn't feel pain on the internet, but remember this hobby is supposed to be fun, and not everyone thinks pain is fun, and that is not a character flaw.

after all, if the energy of a hit doesn't matter why play airsoft instead of paintball?

 

[colinjallen]

Yes, we should. Or we should stop quite literally wasting everybody's time by doing voluntary pre-game chrono in the morning.

I'm actually OK with either solution, I mostly object to pointless half-arsed rituals.

One thing to consider is site insurance; when we had insurance, one of the conditions was:

No guns that have a gun velocity of greater than 500 fps single shot (328 fps for risks situated in Northern Ireland), or 370 fps fully automatic (328 fps for risks situated in Northern Ireland) are to be used in any skirmish. Players may use their own modified guns provided that they comply with this. The Insured must chronograph the gun the first time the member plays at the site and after any modifications to ensure compliance;

We talked to a number of companies before taking out insurance; that condition was common to all of them.

Given that it is impossible to know if someone has modified a gun, the only way to conform to that is to chrono every gun at every game.

Sites that do not chrono (hello, Ultimate Wargames) have probably invalidated their insurance, which has some interesting ramifications.

As Tackle has stated, sites have a duty to ensure safety; that is why poor chrono practice and shit marshalling are unacceptable.

 

[ImTriggerHappy]

as has already been mentioned, as a mechanism to catch a determined cheater there's holes in pretty much any method you care to name.

the best we can hope for is to catch the honest but ignorant cases, the lazy cheaters and follow that up with decent in-game marshalling to weed out those who slip past.

i can't say i agree with the whole "being XYZ over doesn't really hurt any more", if that's the case why not raise the limits? why have limits at all?

it's all well and good to play the manly man who doesn't feel pain on the internet, but remember this hobby is supposed to be fun, and not everyone thinks pain is fun, and that is not a character flaw.

after all, if the energy of a hit doesn't matter why play airsoft instead of paintball?

It is not a case of trying to be manly it is just that the very slight increase in energy joule creep causes is pretty insignificant compared to the hassle of trying to stamp it out. 

Only way to completely stop anybody ever being over is test all guns on three weights to try and cover all possibilities and that means on busy sites situations like opening chrono at 5am to start playing by 9am.

People using high power gas but chronoing on duster causes a much more significant jump than joule creep does but there isn't endless posts about sites only allowing green gas that has to be bought on site to try and stamp out that. 

As I said earlier the jump between gas guns from a cold morning to an afternoon game can be quite a bit but again nothing ever gets said about that.

Sites that chrono every gun are already doing the best job they feasibly can and changing from fps to joules makes no difference as the fps charts for each weight correspond to the joules for each weight.

If you test a gun in joules you will still get exactly the same amount of people lying about weight as you would if you test in fps so round and round it goes.

Random checks are the best bet but I can tell you lots of players get arsey when randomly pulled out of games to be tested and then some poor marshal who isn't equipped to deal with confrontation is in a situation they can't cope with. Some people might scoff at that saying that is what they are there for but that is easy to to say when you are not facing down some ranting idiot with his mates stood behind him. Not every site has someone with that ability.

There will never be an easy fix because the truth is while most airsofters try to be decent some will be arseholes and no change in rules that doesn't involve 5hr chronos and security cameras in safe zones and so many other draconian things that would be needed to stop it occurring entirely. All that being implemented would mean you feel like you get your whole 90mins of playtime after queing all day for chrono in a concentration camp.

 

[Jaylordofwaargh]

means on busy sites situations like opening chrono at 5am to start playing by 9am.

Disagree, it means turning up when gates open (in this case i have seen gates at 7/7:30am) and players not circle jerking over every little thing. 

I have started taking two mags to crono, one empty and one loaded with playing weight. 

It does come down to a 'by site' approach, a well advertised crono process would still be at the mercy of players and an off day for the marshals. 

 

[Oneshotscott]

Come on chaps let's all agree to disagree.  I started this post but quickly realised what a waste of time it was.  

Fuck all will ever change in airsoft chrono testing until either something catastrophic happens or a manufacturer brings something to the market that does the job the sites can't be arsed to do. 

Happy Halloween 

 

[ImTriggerHappy]

Disagree, it means turning up when gates open (in this case i have seen gates at 7/7:30am) and players not circle jerking over every little thing. 

I have started taking two mags to crono, one empty and one loaded with playing weight. 

It does come down to a 'by site' approach, a well advertised crono process would still be at the mercy of players and an off day for the marshals. 

That's great if players are always honest about weight (some won't be) and sites trust the players (they won't).

Because otherwise It comes down to weighing declared ammo which would take ages and trusting they don't just walk out and swap or testing on multiple weights as a gun that struggles to feed or hop heavy ammo can fire low on heavy and high on low.

It is good your honest and most are but nothing said in this thread will actually stop the occasional hot gun either falling or being pushed through the cracks.

 

[EDcase]

Appreciate the thought Oneshotscott ?

As said plenty of times in different ways ? FPS vs Joules both rely on correct BB weight being calculated and this is almost impossible to enforce.  (Sites can hand out test BBs but time and cost make that very rare)

The best thing we can do is make sure the sites you go to actually chrono and encourage random testing through the day.

Boycott sites that do not chrono so they get the message.

 

[Rogerborg]

opening chrono at 5am to start playing by 9am

I'm quite serious about ditching pre-game chrono, or making it more of a service for those who want to use it.  Catch folk in-game, during the course of the day.  Test with what the player is using, then test again with heavy site BBs, and if there's a significant discrepancy, take it further.  I'd love to see a marshal (who actually knows what they're doing) at each site doing nothing but test shots and chrono, all day long.

Sadly, just finding a site with sufficient marshals who are more interested in marshalling than Facebooking all day long seems to be a rare treat.

 

[Adolf Hamster]

It is not a case of trying to be manly it is just that the very slight increase in energy joule creep causes is pretty insignificant compared to the hassle of trying to stamp it out. 

i was talking generically, but having started on the kind of site who is the exact kind of place that spawned this thread, ie testing new starts on site .2's and using regulars weight when said regulars would happily chat away about how they were under the "fps limit" when using heavier ammo i do disagree.

as a newcomer it very nearly put me off airsoft, going somewhere with admittedly no better chrono practice but a more honest playerbase had me thinking "holy **** this game isn't supposed to leave you with stinging welts every time?"

granted that's not joule creep, just very lazy/ignorant chrono practice, but well within the purview of what could be achieved accidentally. the general point is that spicy hardware makes the hobby unappealing, both to new and experienced players.

Only way to completely stop anybody ever being over is test all guns on three weights to try and cover all possibilities and that means on busy sites situations like opening chrono at 5am to start playing by 9am.

yes if we were to test all guns equally that would indeed be the case. however regardless of which method is chosen, what needs to happen is for marshalls to know which types of guns are susceptible to problems and give those specific players a bit more time and attention.

i've lost track of the number of times i've chrono'd on heavier ammo only to get a "that's a bit low" remark, and the only time i've ever seen an hpa regulator locked was the time i locked my own regulator to show the site marshalls that it was a thing you could do.

i agree as a practical matter that absolutely eliminating spicy hardware  is an impossible task, at least for as long as airsoft is a game played by humans and chronographs only read projectile velocity, but that doesn't mean we should give up on it.

If you test a gun in joules you will still get exactly the same amount of people lying about weight as you would if you test in fps so round and round it goes.

yes, however the point i was trying to make was that we can't hope to catch a determined cheater, you know as well as i how easy it would be to bypass any of the methods be it using site ammo, using player weight or hell even a site that issued only its own guns.

the point of asking player weight is it'll catch the people who are honest but ignorant, those who own joule creep susceptible guns but don't understand more than "use heavier ammo it goes further". which as has been pointed out is becoming more and more popular especially hpa.

 

[Rogerborg]

the people who are honest but ignorant, those who own joule creep susceptible guns but don't understand more than "use heavier ammo it goes further"

I like to bear in mind that us, we here, represent a tiny minority of players, the people who who are actually interested in airsoft beyond "Point pew, pew go pew, pew-pew-pew."

Within this thread, we probably care more than most site owners do. 

 

[Steveocee]

Would the answer not just simply be for sites to insist that chrono is done on 0.4s? Catch the creepers and get a reasonably good FPS/joule reading?

 

[Rogerborg]

Would the answer not just simply be for sites to insist that chrono is done on 0.4s? Catch the creepers and get a reasonably good FPS/joule reading?

@ImTriggerHappymakes a good point that if you're hopped for (e.g.) 0.2g than dropping in 0.4g can produce weird air seal.

However, I'd still agree that sites should be using 0.4g because Joule creep is more likely to be a problem if you test light then use heavy, than if you're hopped for heavy then drop in light.  Granted, in airsoft physics where a 0.8J TM can outshoot a 1.13J CYMA, anything is possible.

And that applies regardless of whether people have honestly tuned their guns for 0.2g (because their site only chronos and talks and thinks in terms of 0.2g) without realising that they're creeping up with heavier ammo, or if they're rogues minded to lie about their BB weight when chronoed.

I wouldn't suggest kicking someone out of the game or site if they chrono over with 0.4g when they claim they're using lighter BBs, but it would mean further investigation.  If you're going to chrono at all, and if you're going to use one weight, it should be heavier rather than lighter.  The extra cost for the site is pennies.  It's more a question of whether they really care, or whether they have the attitude that if X Joules is OK, then X + 10% Joules is OK (argument valid for any values of X).

 

[Oneshotscott]

?‍We've got it all wrong. 

Every player brings a coke can. 

Sorted. 

 

[Rogerborg]

?‍We've got it all wrong. 

Every player brings a coke can. 

Sorted. 

Finally something we can all agree on.

Wait: regular, classic, cherry, diet, or caffeine free?

 

[leadly]

Finally something we can all agree on.

Wait: regular, classic, cherry, diet, or caffeine free?

I prefer Pepsi Max.

 

[Rogerborg]

I prefer Pepsi Max.

 

[leadly]

You got me! I'll be hiding inside my dye mask while I finger blast fools with my HPA powered Hi Capa on Wednesday night! 

Pepsi Max for everyone!!!

 

[Rogerborg]

I'll be hiding inside my dye mask while I finger blast fools with my HPA powered Hi Capa on Wednesday night! 

I may have just bought... [looks around guiltily]... a Valken M7 full-face.

It's only a matter of time until I'm talking about engines and regulators and shopping for long stripy socks.