A small part of me died

[Musica]

I keep coming back to thinking about ways you could easily solve this, or provide help to keep gameplay flowing and focused without hindering player freedom/ruining the idea of a sunday skirmish

The way I keep thinking about is thus:

- Player marshals are "commanders" (essentially just message relayers, or as close to it as possible) with radios linked, contact to the main showrunner etc.

- Safety brief done centrally but mission/game brief are done on a per-team basis rather than one big blob - cuts down on chatter, makes sure commanders can communicate objectives to a smaller audience, and try to get volunteers for specific objectives or rough attack plans

- Throughout the game, people can do what they like - but commanders keep in regular contact to, at the very least, make sure they can update players at respawn, or key site areas, what the current situation is i.e. "These objectives have been captured, let's get a group together to go for this one"

From my experience games always start out with the best of intentions but once everyone's respawned once or twice that momentum is lost. People don't need orders as such they just need constant reminders on where the action is, what the objective is, and so on.

If there's Skirmish, Battlesim, Milsim, my way of things would be a little of skirmish, a little of battlesim.

Obviously this might not be possible depending on game size, I could see you needing a fair few people to make it work and that might just be cost prohibitive. Also tricky to nail a level of communication/suggestions without forcing too much on players who just want to bimble around and waste time in bushes.

Some people don't want told how to play. They paid their money to do their thing and won't be listening to Sargent major asshole shouting out bollocks. I think skirmish days are just a shit show and there ain't much you can do about that. It's a mixed bag like trying to have a hockey team and the figure skating group playing a game at the same time. 

 

[DrAlexanderTobacco]

Some people don't want told how to play. They paid their money to do their thing and won't be listening to Sargent major asshole shouting out bollocks. I think skirmish days are just a shit show and there ain't much you can do about that. It's a mixed bag like trying to have a hockey team and the figure skating group playing a game at the same time. 

Yeah totally and I'm not proposing this would be a means to solve that specific problem.

The problem I've got in my mind is that, once the momentum's gone during specific types of games, it can be hard to claw it back and I think a significant reason for that is just a lack of understanding about what's going on - i.e. you might hear an objective's been taken by another player but they can be wrong, or fail to communicate which one specifically (I keep getting this at games where you've got to flick the switch on identical boxes across the site for example - chinese whispers means by the time you're told about which box has been done it might be completely incorrect)

IMO it doesn't need someone barking orders, it just needs someone with perfect insight into the state of play to say "That objective's definitely done guys, head over that way if you want some action"

I've attended some sites where it's like getting blood out of a stone to actually work out what's going on, where the hostage made it to, where the VIP is, blah blah - and eventually you spend so much time trying to work things out you might as well just wander around randomly as some do, TDMing

 

[Musica]

Yeah totally and I'm not proposing this would be a means to solve that specific problem.

The problem I've got in my mind is that, once the momentum's gone during specific types of games, it can be hard to claw it back and I think a significant reason for that is just a lack of understanding about what's going on - i.e. you might hear an objective's been taken by another player but they can be wrong, or fail to communicate which one specifically (I keep getting this at games where you've got to flick the switch on identical boxes across the site for example - chinese whispers means by the time you're told about which box has been done it might be completely incorrect)

IMO it doesn't need someone barking orders, it just needs someone with perfect insight into the state of play to say "That objective's definitely done guys, head over that way if you want some action"

I've attended some sites where it's like getting blood out of a stone to actually work out what's going on, where the hostage made it to, where the VIP is, blah blah - and eventually you spend so much time trying to work things out you might as well just wander around randomly as some do, TDMing

Marshall's at my site often tell you to go push a stair well they know is empty to flank an objective but equally if a team is struggling they call out your flanks they are about to get hit by so they have a chance to take an angle to hold. 

They even tell you where hidden objectives are occasionally if it's getting dire. 

 

[DrAlexanderTobacco]

Cool, some of mine don't

E: Of course, the answer I've just given highlights the problem that if the site can't do basic marshal pointing like that, they won't have the organisation to do what I'm proposing - but still! My underlying point I suppose is that objective based gameplay depends on good communication and sometimes I think that communication should be forced/chucked at the players so they have no excuse

 

[Stodgy]

Having played at a fair few sites I personally prefer longer games with several objectives. My personal favourite at the moment is combat south. Reasons for this are as follows. 

Central briefs that are listened to and the marshal will call players for not listening. Could it be a little shorter? Yes. But it is effective. 

Game details are briefed to each time separately prior to start of that iteration.

Strangely and I cannot explain why the teams in my experience are always pretty evenly balanced but it’s the game designs and site layout that makes it work. Eg one life in a certain area then fall back to repeat for defenders with attackers having unlimited respawn.

Responding to the original point about speedsoft style play I personally believe it would make little difference at the site because of how the games are structured. For example if one has to place several bombs along with clearing the village the defenders are already in situ. Running into that would make little difference as it needs to be cleared methodically. Even with both teams starting away from the objectives the design will have several areas that need to be held and more importantly secured for a set period so even if you get all of the locations initially holding them is a different matter.  

 

[DrAlexanderTobacco]

Re: Speedsofters and ppl complaining about them I always think of them as the graffiti kids from Hot Fuzz, helping me out when I get lit up by a static chap in a bush

Link is timestamped

 

[kasaran]

Never been to a site with a fixed finish objective point. Always been who holds it at the end of the time limit or a timer, which team held it the longest within the time limit.  In those senarios speedsofters may get there first.  But they arnt kitted out for holding an objective.   So it balances out between the fast and light (getting there first) and the slow and heavies who generally use cover more and carry more magazines worth of bbs resulting in greater volume of fire.

I can understand the complaints if its a case of 'the winner is who ever gets to X point first' but thats poor game planning.  Its like if some people in a football team decided to pick up the ball and play like its rugby during a match.

 

[Druid799]

Marshall's at my site often tell you to go push a stair well they know is empty to flank an objective but equally if a team is struggling they call out your flanks they are about to get hit by so they have a chance to take an angle to hold. 

They even tell you where hidden objectives are occasionally if it's getting dire. 

For me that’s exactly what a good marshaling team will do , there not just there to catch cheaters or for H&S they should be keeping the game flowing not favouring one team or the other just keep it going . Andy the boss of UCAP is a good example of it , he’ll point you in the right direction to move to gain a wee bit of a step up , I’ve even seen him take a grenade from one team and drop it near some players from the other side to get a game back on track if its stalled for what ever reason , you keep the game moving and you have happy customers.

I keep coming back to thinking about ways you could easily solve this, or provide help to keep gameplay flowing and focused without hindering player freedom/ruining the idea of a sunday skirmish

The way I keep thinking about is thus:

- Player marshals are "commanders" (essentially just message relayers, or as close to it as possible) with radios linked, contact to the main showrunner etc.

- Safety brief done centrally but mission/game brief are done on a per-team basis rather than one big blob - cuts down on chatter, makes sure commanders can communicate objectives to a smaller audience, and try to get volunteers for specific objectives or rough attack plans

- Throughout the game, people can do what they like - but commanders keep in regular contact to, at the very least, make sure they can update players at respawn, or key site areas, what the current situation is i.e. "These objectives have been captured, let's get a group together to go for this one"

From my experience games always start out with the best of intentions but once everyone's respawned once or twice that momentum is lost. People don't need orders as such they just need constant reminders on where the action is, what the objective is, and so on.

If there's Skirmish, Battlesim, Milsim, my way of things would be a little of skirmish, a little of battlesim.

Obviously this might not be possible depending on game size, I could see you needing a fair few people to make it work and that might just be cost prohibitive. Also tricky to nail a level of communication/suggestions without forcing too much on players who just want to bimble around and waste time in bushes.

Again spot on mate , you can ‘gently’ direct players in the right direction with out being mr shoutyhead and getting everyone’s back up in the process screaming orders at them ! ?

We’ve all seen them , either there an ‘all the gear no idea’ type OR the guy with surplus kit and his beer gut hanging halfway to his knees but both screaming orders from the back ! ?‍

A suggestion goes a hell of a lot further when your dealing with paying customers than an order will . ?

 

[remus]

site I used to play at had a marshal who sorta followed each team. gave pointers rather than instructions. (told em to spread or to push etc) they lso usually carried guns and joined in if a team was struggling  or if someone as suspected as cheating and not taking hits then he took of the vis took a position then shot the offender til he reached a verdict(I remember him catching  guy multiple times and banning him from site, most learned the first time) but a lot depends on team balance from start of day which some sites address throughout the day and others really don't...

I don't get why in objective games yes not everyone dosent lay objectives but you can play your way and support those who are, attacking whereyour team needs its flag to go etc. (hate two man crate moves)

 

[JAM]

I just like that this thread transitioned  from "damn kids with their new fangled games" to "damn kids run too fast". 

 

[Heath]

I just like that this thread transitioned from "Damn kids with their new fangled games" to "damn kids running too fast". 

 

[Druid799]

I just like that this thread transitioned from "Damn kids with their new fangled games" to "damn kids running too fast". 

Nope not really to be honest it’s got f**k all to do with damn kids , etc , etc just someone who thinks there’s definitely a place for all forms of Airsoft , just some don’t mix due to the vast difference in game style . Never been about age . ?

 

[FreeFrag.UK]

Nope not really to be honest it’s got f**k all to do with damn kids , etc , etc just someone who thinks there’s definitely a place for all forms of Airsoft , just some don’t mix due to the vast difference in game style . Never been about age . ?

This to be honest.

 

[Aengus]

Nope not really to be honest it’s got f**k all to do with damn kids , etc , etc just someone who thinks there’s definitely a place for all forms of Airsoft , just some don’t mix due to the vast difference in game style . Never been about age . ?

We all know you gummers can’t move ?

 

[Heath]

It’s easy enough to say improve your game but no amount of training or willpower is going to allow a 45yr old to compete in a foot race with a 20somthing speed merchant is it ? .

"Never been about age . ?"

Age was at least a little bit of a factor In it, no?

It is what it is at the end of the day. If dedicated speedsoft games take off at least that separates the crowds out a bit, but there will always be those who are more objective driven, or more energetic, or who have the better gear that throws the game off a little bit. 

 

[hunter511]

See I'm not a huge fan of speedsofters. On a walk on skirmish they are generally a more challenging target granted.

Thing is I've NEVER seen milsimmers turn up to an advertised speedsoft game and complain about mags, gear and that everyone should conform to their kit. 

I have however seen Speedsofters turn up to a pre-booked milsim game with limited ammo, non winding mag, teams based on kit colours etc and seem surprised that a 300 rd limited game wouldn't let them use murder-box modded pistols, their kit didn't conform to either of the teams listed set ups and insist that the organisers should change the rules (they had actually scrolled past to book) because otherwise "he was being elitist"...... Granted I know all speedsofters aren't like this, but honestly in 20+ years of playing airsoft that stands out as a spoecial level of bell-ending.

 

[Immortal]

I just like that this thread transitioned from "Damn kids with their new fangled games" to "damn kids running too fast". 

Most woodland games I've played always have a line of what I call runners at the start, I just watch 'em go. They're the canaries to where the front line is. I find it helpful to see as I strole in. I don't mind a fast target as long as the target calls hit.

Love seeing a sprinting nut trying to flank and being hit by a single BB from a springer. Then they do the long walk back... it's the little things... gotta appreciate that.

 

[Druid799]

"Never been about age . ?"

Age was at least a little bit of a factor In it, no?

Are you really this fucking clueless ? How many times does it need to be said age has nothing to do with it ? it’s not exactly rocket science that this full on fast paced style of play attracts younger players is it !

But equally you see plenty of young players at most ‘normal’ skirmish days who quite frankly have difficulty walking from one end of the site to the other in one go without getting breathless there that unfit , plus there’s just as many older players who are very fit by any standards . 

So if you do get a team of very fit very win at all costs orientated players on site then yea there going to cause everyone else there to have a crap day , or are you the type who’d turn up at a family football tournament with a proper team and be proud of the fact you’d hammered all the dads and kids there ? There’s an extreme distance between the two scenarios but there still basically the same thing . 

 

[Tackle]

"Never been about age . ?"

Age was at least a little bit of a factor In it, no?

It is what it is at the end of the day. If dedicated speedsoft games take off at least that separates the crowds out a bit, but there will always be those who are more objective driven, or more energetic, or who have the better gear that throws the game off a little bit. 

Nope, it's mainly fitness, with an element of skill thrown in, & if by better gear you mean more expensive gear, definitely not, I've seen guys who have the first two requirements own a site with a £30 springer shotgun, & by the same degree, my fitness is at an all time low, so I have to be extra sneaky & use whatever skills I have to overcome, & I do ok ?, most of the time anyway lol.