Airsoft Governing Bodies

[Asomodai]

The thing that always worriers me about getting Airsoft classed as sport is it becomes harder to justify the need for RIFs. Our one saving grace when Hazel Blairs (thank god she got moved onto other things) was we could argue that it was more about dressing up and playing war and by having to use brightly coloured guns would have a detrimental effect and undermine the hobby to such an extent it would kill it.

I am not saying it's a good example. But Paintball have Mag Fed markers that are realistic looking. 

Air Guns that are to all intents and purposes RIFs are allowed and they are represented by the BASC Council. Air Guns don't have to look realistic, but they do, especially in the case of 4.5mm replicas. 

It's not a question of a fiver or a tenner.... it's a question of whether any UK airsoft body is capable of making legal representations to the lawmakers in the UK. Without having that ability the body will hold no merit in political circles. 

I am not sure if UKAPU can at the moment, but they certainly have some legal experience. 

 

[lukeB]

Protection from MP’s will always come from the retailers in some form, as they control supply and represent what little money there is in airsoft.

If required, a ban on two tone sales is a quick way to limit supply further.
 

In terms of sites, it would seem that the players voice is already represented by the mob on Facebook.

 

[Asomodai]

The EAA (European Airsoft Association.) Which are UKAPUs partner. Stopped a bill going ahead in the EU that came very nearly to passing, that would ban Airsoft entirely within the EU. Instead they turned it around so that Airsoft was recognised as a non Firearm's "activity". Which has made Airsoft more secure then ever before in the EU. So a Players Union really does make a difference if given the power. 

 

[RebelScum]

@AlphaBear You can join UKAPU for nowt ie zero, nothing, nada, zilch but there is a £5/year sub and a £10/year sub (yes, you do get a patch for £5 and get two for £10!) 

If a £10 a year secures Airsoft’s future from some knee-jerk shitkicking cause some fool has gotten hold of a RIF and got the law involved I think a tenner isn’t that much and imagine if everyone here had a £5 or £10 sub (thats’s like 1 or 2 less grenades/pints/Maccie-Dee’s a year) the amount of funds available to fight/lobby the powers that be in Westminster for the “sport” we all love ?

Just signed up.  You should rep for them, as that was a motivating post!  Plus I'm a sucker for a patch.

 

[Tommikka]

I am not saying it's a good example. But Paintball have Mag Fed markers that are realistic looking. 

Paintball fully has RIFs ((in my opinion - others may like to disagree))

Its been ‘tested’ a number of times.

Not just the obvious magfeds, but also hoppers that look like firearms and a police study highlighted almost the whole stock of a retailer - anything black.

In the early days of VCRA a least one batch of pistols to a distributor was ceased & destroyed.

With the UKPSF nothing has proceeded against paintball RIFs or potential RIFs, and though not strictly to the absolute word of the VCRA & skirmishing there has been feedback from the Home Office that UKPSF may pass the test in court.  (Preferably that home office guidance prevents something getting as far as court to get tested)

The look of paintball, plus the two images of either rambos or stag/hen parties hasn’t prevented any progress with Sport England etc

A benefit to paintball is the well established tournament formats, which aid the competition element with an international flavour.  If recognised status is achieved then recreational paintball will benefit as the grass roots feed to the ‘sporting’ element —— that’s government and lottery grants etc

Airsoft could equally follow a similar path.

On a sporty look there is speedsoft, which I think mostly remains a style rather than an established ‘sport’ version, but there’s also competition shooting with airsoft which aligns nicely with other shooting sports

 

[Tommikka]

my bad, wrong quote

agree with that, there is a big difference between a private game with a few mates, and those few mates deciding to run a site, the danger of course being that they'll run things so they have fun, rather than the paying public.

staff being players is a tricky one, on the one hand experience as a player might help, but additionally it might hinder especially if they're bringing bad habits from their own playstyles into their work. of course this is part of what a governing body could do- guides on best practice, what to do when dealing with a cheater? what behaviour should constitute a ban? how to follow up on complaints etc.

I think we are on the same page with regard to staff who are players, just at a slightly different point on the page

Perhaps I have more faith in the ‘love for the game’ vs ‘Me and my mates awesome and all you other guys are using up our time’

(not ‘player marshals’* but marshals on the day) 

There is value in the player who loves the game working in the game. But also alongside the average persons weekend job - who may or may not catch the bug 

Either or neither could have the skills to deal with people, and to recognise that everyone is a paying customer

Someone needs to impart those skills - which if not happening can be a gentle or not so gentle nudge from other businesses or ‘the body’

The dickhead Marshall for any flavour of dickhead is a disaster 

Guides and best practice can and should come from ‘the body’ (which will have to originate from the community) It does need a gentle touch to ease in standards - but a bit firmer to prise out dangers

 
* I could be called a hypocrite there as I have put in marshal factions on a number of events - but as part of the theme and the game design, not as free Marshall’s who actually just want to play. I have to ensure that someone ‘newer’ knows what the expectations are for the role

((I had one where we played the ‘locals’. 
If we had costume on we were a local, with hi vis we were a marshal.

As a local we fed the storyline and missions, boosted/assisted/harassed players. 
As I was doing a circuit I had a complaint - ‘’marshal can you sort out your mate? he’s not taking his hits and keeps shooting us out when our medic heals us. We can’t get to our objective as we have to keep fighting him

Why is he shooting you?  We just fire a couple of shots at him then he opens up on us 

Did you listen to the rule about locals being invincible?  And they fight back?

Yes

Have you tried not shooting him?

..... and they cautiously walk past Will unhindered))

I have attended a special event which was meant to be  ‘by players for players’, but they had no idea what they were letting themselves into.  It became ‘by players for other paying players to fund our fun and we will all drop out of marshalling at the last minute’

 

[GenuineGerman]

Just think if Airsoft becomes a sport we can all call ourselves athletes ?

 

[Tommikka]

Just think if Airsoft becomes a sport we can all call ourselves athletes ?

 

[AlphaBear]

Just think if Airsoft becomes a sport we can all call ourselves athletes ?

In my mind I can run a 4 minute mile. In reality it’s more like 15 minutes ?

 

[Druid799]

Think we’ve reached the “put up or shut up” point , general consensus seems to be we do need something now so me personally I’m going to start pushing UKAPU as my chosen option from now on so I’ve up’ed my membership from the free one to the gold membership to give them more funds . May not be the ‘perfect’ answer or solution but they’ve got an established organisation in place (They’ve been around since 2010 , in airsoft turns that’s bloody historic !) and if everyone joins then they’ve got the backing to OFFICIALLY represent us as a sport/recognisable hobby/leisure activity .

 

[GenuineGerman]

Think we’ve reached the “put up or shut up” point , general consensus seems to be we do need something now so me personally I’m going to start pushing UKAPU as my chosen option from now on so I’ve up’ed my membership from the free one to the gold membership to give them more funds . May not be the ‘perfect’ answer or solution but they’ve got an established organisation in place (They’ve been around since 2010 , in airsoft turns that’s bloody historic !) and if everyone joins then they’ve got the backing to OFFICIALLY represent us as a sport/recognisable hobby/leisure activity .

I have done the same and agree with you on this.

 

[Adolf Hamster]

It's not a question of a fiver or a tenner.... it's a question of whether any UK airsoft body is capable of making legal representations to the lawmakers in the UK. Without having that ability the body will hold no merit in political circles. 

kind of a vicious circle, a body won't have that power until enough people sign up to it, once they represent enough of the uk airsoft scene (not just players but sites and retailers too) then they'll have weight. which leads us to:

Think we’ve reached the “put up or shut up” point , general consensus seems to be we do need something now so me personally I’m going to start pushing UKAPU as my chosen option from now on so I’ve up’ed my membership from the free one to the gold membership to give them more funds . May not be the ‘perfect’ answer or solution but they’ve got an established organisation in place (They’ve been around since 2010 , in airsoft turns that’s bloody historic !) and if everyone joins then they’ve got the backing to OFFICIALLY represent us as a sport/recognisable hobby/leisure activity .

it does seem they're the best option we have, and arguably better to bolster their ranks to get it moved in the right direction quicker.

 

[MiK]

Just signed up.  You should rep for them, as that was a motivating post!  Plus I'm a sucker for a patch.

No worries matey, glad to have “repped” if it helps us in the long run

The patches are kinda nice too & the postage is included in the subs so I doubt they are making much of a profit from them at all.

 

[Iisjreg]

This is really interesting and I've been thinking about this a lot in the past few days and I've come to my own conclusion that a NGB is not necessary for airsoft.

It absolutely could be done, it's not rocket science. Parkour and Frisbee are established and recognised but then they've worked hard for that and really want to be seen as proper sports. Airsoft... doesn't really.

Firstly, and most importantly, is it an organised sport. Technically, yes, but it is, very much, a hobby first and a sport second.

Then there's necessity: we haven't had one and it's been fine. Why would one want a governing body and/or recognition by Sport England (or other national agency)? It seems this is mainly to 1) achieve consistency in national and international competition; 2) gain legitimacy for working with children and 3) secure lottery funding for "development". Competitive airsoft seems like a very small part of the hobby in the UK and I don't see any real international competitions and it's never going to be Olympic. Nobody seems that fussed about "bringing airsoft to the kids" (I know some people do try) and I don't think schools are very keen on guns 'n violence. Then, I don't see what funding would be used for if not for 1 or 2.

If the idea is to "lobby" government against new laws, then anybody can do that and organisations have previously been set up for that purpose. Plus, just because there is a governing body doesn't mean that the government would listen to them anyway.

Paintball is used to show what "could be" but ukpsf don't really seem up to the task either, no offence intended. I'd say they have more reason to be recognised but they're not quite there.

This seems like a bit of a storm in a teacup and has only come up because the temporary rules mean that we can't play with our toys just yet.

 

[Tommikka]

In my mind I can run a 4 minute mile. In reality it’s more like 15 minutes ?

I can run a 4 minute mile

But not necessarily in 4 minutes

 

[Tommikka]

A pointer about the free memberships:

Free is nice. But free does nothing for them but getting numbers, for any official government body or sports England etc overlooking it doesn’t show ‘true’ committed members (UKARA is better on that front as it is people who have committed a level of playing and joined a site)

Delta Force (Tesco’s of paintball) attempted to make a claim with sports England by counting everyone who has played their rental sites calling them ‘members’ - they were laughed out. 

The UKPSF made a move to boost membership with a free option, it was a terrible struggle to get people to put their name on a piece of paper.  Either valuing it as nothing because it was free or wondering what the con was

It was known that sport England would not recognise free members, but the intent was to hook people and try to gain upgrades later. It’s only been in the last year with Covid that players have paid attention again.

(From the 90s the UKPSF was one man, it took him stating that he was going to step down in 2014 to make people realise that it was about to become nothing, and for the last few years it has had a true committee and is making slow progress)

Airsofts main action was probably 2006 & 2007 with the VCR bill/act, and is behind in those terms.  But airsoft players have not been able to just totally sit back due to the need for UKARA etc - so there’s a possible advantage there that may beat player apathy

If you can do so, sign up with a paid option.  The money is probably all

spent on the patches etc, or a tiny element remains - but it shows commitment from you to the game.

If they get a penny left over per person then that will eventually make a £1 and they can afford a phone call to government 

 

[Panama]

I just signed up with a free account to at least show my intent to UKAPU and I also have two sons (over 18) who both play and will recommend they do likewise.

As someone relatively new to the sport and to UKAPU it would be nice if someone (apologies if they already have I missed it) said that in principle, that they (UKAPU) would be willing to represent the sport as a governing body. I would happily up my membership to paid to help facilitate that happening and them having a true voice to represent us all.

 

[Druid799]

Me personally I’d rather not have a full blown governing body overseeing airsoft , but I now realise we do need a visible national ‘organisation’ (nothing to do with this ‘open/not open sites debacle , think this has just galvanized the discussion)representing us to the Gov/local Gov/local councils/etc hence I’m now fully supporting UKAPU , as I said earlier ATB definitely has its place(representing the people who make a living from the sport) but I don’t want them to have overall control as I genuinely believe it’s not in my or my fellow players best interest to have that happen . Where as UKAPU is a player based organisation so one would think they’d be out to safeguard the players best interests over fiscal interests like ATB would be ? 

 

[Adolf Hamster]

Firstly, and most importantly, is it an organised sport. Technically, yes, but it is, very much, a hobby first and a sport second.

tbh i'd say airsoft is as deserving of being called a sport as any other shooting sport, sure you could argue that it relies on equipment but then so does motorsport.

it can be both a hobby and a sport, but the main thing is regardless of which it is there still needs to be representation.

This seems like a bit of a storm in a teacup and has only come up because the temporary rules mean that we can't play with our toys just yet.

i think druid summed it up perfectly:

this has just galvanized the discussion)representing us to the Gov/local Gov/local councils/etc

at the moment it's just a few weeks stuck indoors (well, for you lucky buggers on the mainland at least), but there are other issues for our hobby, everything from the small scale confiscation of individual parcels as @Asomodai has had to deal with, through to fighting the next wave of "ermegerd bern erll der gernz" movement which is an ever present problem for any hobby involving gun-shaped objects.

Then there's necessity: we haven't had one and it's been fine. Why would one want a governing body and/or recognition by Sport England (or other national agency)? It seems this is mainly to 1) achieve consistency in national and international competition; 2) gain legitimacy for working with children and 3) secure lottery funding for "development". Competitive airsoft seems like a very small part of the hobby in the UK and I don't see any real international competitions and it's never going to be Olympic. Nobody seems that fussed about "bringing airsoft to the kids" (I know some people do try) and I don't think schools are very keen on guns 'n violence. Then, I don't see what funding would be used for if not for 1 or 2.

we haven't really had one because initially it's a grassroots industry, which is great for ease of access and initial growth, but as has been discussed makes for instability and has issues where site quality is basically luck of the draw.

not sure about the lottery argument, i suppose it would be nice to reach a level of recognition where such things can happen but it's not what's motivating me into wanting some oversight.

in the long run a well established governing body can set standards such as chrono practice, fps limits (where applicable, such as where dmr's are in relation to rifles/basr's, or lower cqb limits etc), ratio of players to marshals, training for site staff, standardized game rules, how to deal with rule breakers, it could negotiate bulk insurance deals, organize larger events, get involved in larger scale charity work, manage PR and fight both the big and small legal battles.

that's in the future of course, rome wasn't built in a day and all that, but i'd rather we were dictated terms by a governing body that we had some input for than be ripped apart the next time a politician with an axe to grind reads about little timmy who took his 2-tone justbbgunz special into school and decides to drop the banhammer.

 

[MiK]

I would also say that the “two-tone” for non defence sales also needs tightened/looked at - all it takes is another 12yr old being given/getting hold of a pistol and being raided by the police like last year or the lad stopped in Brum a few years back, this will do so much damage to anything that is tried to make Airsoft legit.

I’m not pointing fingers at the vendors to be at fault but parents also need educating more at point of sale/be held responsible when they buy their “innocent little angel” a two-tone or allow one to be brought into their household.

I am a realist and I know bad things could happen if someone picks up a rif who isn’t meant to but not having a “body” who will speak on our behalf or for the rights of the sport things like everyone has mentioned in this thread or another pandemic and us not being counted as a sport will only keep repeating.