Is being a Film student at college a valid defence to buy an RIF?

[Curt]

Hello! I am a film student at college (I'm 16) and I need an RIF if a revolver for one of my projects, I know that I could get a gun sprayed two tone but that won't work for the prop. I am pretty sure I would not be allowed to take it skirmishing but if I have the defence of using it as a prop, would it be possible to buy one from a UK site?

Any help would be appreciated!

 

[skintrade]

Not usually a valid defence, I'm a film maker but because I am freelance I'm not covered either (not registered as a company). Film and TV production companies are covered with being registered at Companies House, Schools Universities etc are not.

Also even with a valid defence you have to be 18, so age is against you.

 

[Jedi_Master]

No.  It is illegal for children (under 18) to be sold or purchase an IF or RIF.  There is no defence.

You will need an adult to obtain an airsoft gun regardless of you having any film related course/credential.

 

[Rogerborg]

I need an RIF if a revolver for one of my projects

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Then you'll have absolutely no problem getting the faculty to purchase it, and loan it to you for the purposes of your performance, will you?

 

[Tommikka]

As in the other posts, you are too young to purchase either an IF or RIF.

All the VCRA authorised activities indicate that the use is at locations or for organisations with the appropriate liability insurance 

You let yourself down slightly by mentioning that you wouldn’t be allowed to use it for skirmishing.  (Possession of a RIF isn’t an offence under the VCRA, so if you were gifted one then you would be able to use it on an appropriate site)

Film making is also a sore subject as this was the false defence used by a very dodgy dealer who was handling guns for organized crime.  His activities included false documentation on blank firers and deactivated weapons.  They were either genuine firearms or he was reconverting them back to live fire.

He claimed to be working on bond films for the “secrecy” and his inability to correctly document what he was using

For filmmaking in college you ought to be able to get props ordered via the college.  It will then be their prop and you won’t have any issues.  Just sign it out and hand it back

There is also not an absolute necessity for realism in student films, many have used pretty much anything which expresses their creativity 

 

[skintrade]

Film making is also a sore subject as this was the false defence used by a very dodgy dealer who was handling guns for organized crime. 

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I remember this happening, cast a very dim light on the entire indie film community... I started way back before the VCRA requirements kicked in, even then we were always very clear about our reasons for ownership (helped I was an airsofter back then, so getting them was always a double bonus for me), in more recent time I recommended to people to rent as needed, as it means with the right supplier you can actually get actual props with firearms specialists on hand.

I would never recommend any student film include RIFs without appropriate on location supervision, hell most of the film makers I work with only use a RIF or RIFs sparingly, and one day rental is cheaper than purchase.

 

[AshOnSnow]

I bought RIFs for university projects, but equally you must be 18 to purchase them anyway regardless of reason. So in your case, no. The “defences” are reasons to purchase, not excemptions from age restriction.

If you’re still studying film at university and want to purchase RIFs for a project, a signed headed letter from your course coordinator should suffice.

Not usually a valid defence, I'm a film maker but because I am freelance I'm not covered either (not registered as a company). Film and TV production companies are covered with being registered at Companies House, Schools Universities etc are not.

Also even with a valid defence you have to be 18, so age is against you.

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I’ve never had any issues procuring RIFs for film projects. That’s how I got into airsoft in the first place. You should have the insurance to cover it (which you should have to cover cast and crew on set anyway), and if you’re in public it opens up a can of worms with police notifications, cordons and security measures, but I wasn’t aware of a legal requirement to be a registered company. The law defines “for Film, Television purposes” by referencing another piece of legislation (I believe the copyrights act) for the definition, which presents no requirement for limited company registration.

 

[skintrade]

The law defines “for Film, Television purposes” by referencing another piece of legislation (I believe the copyrights act) for the definition, which presents no requirement for limited company registration.

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I agree it's not actually specified in the VCRA, however it's something that every retailer i have dealt with in the last 5 or 6 years has rejected over (even most of the professional rental firms too). I've come up against this, due to the fact they check the existence of a company actually existing, partly to avoid the "I'm a film maker innit bud. I'm not really a toe rag looking to wave it in the face of someone I'm nicking from." issue, and partly to cover the issues with people providing RIFs and those converted to firing real ammo to criminals (see a previous response). But, as we all know ownership is not really the issue, but purchasing. 

One other note @Curt you list local fields on your profile, chat with players there if they can help you with loans or on set aid.

 

[AshOnSnow]

I agree it's not actually specified in the VCRA, however it's something that every retailer i have dealt with in the last 5 or 6 years has rejected over (even most of the professional rental firms too). I've come up against this, due to the fact they check the existence of a company actually existing, partly to avoid the "I'm a film maker innit bud. I'm not really a toe rag looking to wave it in the face of someone I'm nicking from." issue, and partly to cover the issues with people providing RIFs and those converted to firing real ammo to criminals (see a previous response). But, as we all know ownership is not really the issue, but purchasing. 

One other note @Curt you list local fields on your profile, chat with players there if they can help you with loans or on set aid.

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Compiled all the relevant legal mumbo jumbo from the 4 sections of law pertaining to selling RIFs for filming (VCRA S36, VCRA S37; CDPA S5B; Comms Act 2003 S405) into one lump paragraph:

A person is guilty of an offence if he sells a realistic imitation firearm (RIF). It shall be a defence for a person charged with this offence to show that the conduct was for the purpose only of making the RIF in question available for the production of a film (a recording on any medium from which a moving image may by any means be produced) or television programme (any programme, with or without sounds, which is produced wholly or partly to be seen on television and consists of moving or still images, or of legible text, or of a combination of those things).

 

[skintrade]

@AshOnSnow never quibbled the wording of the law, just had no end of issues around the implementation of it from retailers and rentals - used to be easy when I started film and TV production work in the early 90s ?

 

[AshOnSnow]

@AshOnSnow never quibbled the wording of the law, just had no end of issues around the implementation of it from retailers and rentals - used to be easy when I started film and TV production work in the early 90s ?

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I think you've just had some jobsworth grumpy retailers. Bad luck there.

 

[skintrade]

I think you've just had some jobsworth grumpy retailers. Bad luck there.

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LOL quite possibly, going to be less hassle once I get my UKARA sorted tho, over 12 years away from social pew pew and coming back to it. Will make my 'fun fun' help my 'work fun' 

 

[AshOnSnow]

LOL quite possibly, going to be less hassle once I get my UKARA sorted tho, over 12 years away from social pew pew and coming back to it. Will make my 'fun fun' help my 'work fun' 

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I never use my UKARA to buy RIFs for film work. If there's any question later if there's some kind of incident, or lets say it gets stolen and the police are investigating, I don't want to be trying to add "well I bought it for film work, but I told the supplier it was for my own personal recreation" complications into the already complex rules surrounding it. What happens when the police go to the retailer, ask "when did you sell a glock 17 for such and such tv show?" and the shop manager comes back and says "We've never heard of that show, nobody's informed us of that". For what started as a theft, mr policeman is now writing "retailer has no knowledge of selling a gun for this show" in his little book of secrets. Opens up a whole new can of worms.

I'm someone who likes doing things by the book.

 

[skintrade]

I'll be buying for skirmishing first and foremost, as I said in a previous response, I recommend hiring proper replicas for production work as they hold up to geardo scrutiny on screen and once you factor in rubber replicas for stunt work, blank and plug firers etc it is so much less hassle and cheaper for the amount they get used (helps to have specialists on hand for safety too). I meant it in terms of if I have them for my own fun flinging balls about, then the rare time I need it for a small project it's there. I was not saying claim it's for A and use for B instead. I do have a couple of RIFs for low budget stuff, cheap ass Chinese water bomb flingers that in fleeting passes you barely notice. 

 

[Immortal]

If you take a gun for a prop to college for a film then consider what you do with it when not filming.

Many moons ago a college friend had the same idea to bring a blank firing pistol in for a film he wanted to make. He had a "dickhead" moment which saw 6 of us in a police cell for the afternoon. Guilty by association.

The film was never made.... lol

 

[AshOnSnow]

I'll be buying for skirmishing first and foremost, as I said in a previous response, I recommend hiring proper replicas for production work as they hold up to geardo scrutiny on screen and once you factor in rubber replicas for stunt work, blank and plug firers etc it is so much less hassle and cheaper for the amount they get used (helps to have specialists on hand for safety too). I meant it in terms of if I have them for my own fun flinging balls about, then the rare time I need it for a small project it's there. I was not saying claim it's for A and use for B instead. I do have a couple of RIFs for low budget stuff, cheap ass Chinese water bomb flingers that in fleeting passes you barely notice. 

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I've heard a lot about the plug firers, never used them myself. A lot of the projects I work on from a post production aspect are shot in the UAE and Oman, they use the real deal guns there, loaded with blanks. I found the airsoft guns were best for the UK, also because on a few occasions we've discussed using the 8mm blanks, health and safety has mandated hearing protection for those in immediate vicinity (eg the actor shooting). Put some black tape over the gas ports, I've had to repaint a few of those pesky green WE nozzles, and the visual guys have a really good library of muzzle flashes and shell ejections from different angles. Keep a big bag of real spent shells to scatter around the place during cuts, and you're golden.

 

[skintrade]

Before Ash and I completely hijack the thread....

tldr;

You're under 18 so you can't buy yourself under any defence.

Ask the college to purchase or hire for use, you are loaned it by them for purpose, it's down to the retailer to be happy with selling it to the college

If someone who has a defence gives or loans you an Airsoft RIF you are totally allowed to skirmish with it, there's no law against that.

 

[Rogerborg]

Before Ash and I completely hijack the thread....

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You've rescued it, this is fascinating stuff.

 

[NRG]

Compiled all the relevant legal mumbo jumbo from the 4 sections of law pertaining to selling RIFs for filming (VCRA S36, VCRA S37; CDPA S5B; Comms Act 2003 S405) into one lump paragraph:

A person is guilty of an offence if he sells a realistic imitation firearm (RIF). It shall be a defence for a person charged with this offence to show that the conduct was for the purpose only of making the RIF in question available for the production of a film (a recording on any medium from which a moving image may by any means be produced) or television programme (any programme, with or without sounds, which is produced wholly or partly to be seen on television and consists of moving or still images, or of legible text, or of a combination of those things).

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I know this is an old thread but I have a question. 

I want to use an airsoft gun for a short film, very amateur I don't study film or anything. 

I can't buy it because you need insurance and to have a company. 

But I was wondering if it's legal to remove the two tone paint of an IF for a film?

I know it's illegal to remove two tone from an air soft gun, but if I use it for a film I can prove it was for film, so according to the law it should theoretically be legal? I can show that it was done for the film (with the film). 

I just wanted to check if this is legal before I do it because it's a really grey area. 

 

[NRG]

Compiled all the relevant legal mumbo jumbo from the 4 sections of law pertaining to selling RIFs for filming (VCRA S36, VCRA S37; CDPA S5B; Comms Act 2003 S405) into one lump paragraph:

A person is guilty of an offence if he sells a realistic imitation firearm (RIF). It shall be a defence for a person charged with this offence to show that the conduct was for the purpose only of making the RIF in question available for the production of a film (a recording on any medium from which a moving image may by any means be produced) or television programme (any programme, with or without sounds, which is produced wholly or partly to be seen on television and consists of moving or still images, or of legible text, or of a combination of those things).

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Hi, I know this is an old thread but I have a question. 

I want to use an airsoft glock for a short film, very amateur I don't study film or anything. 

I can't buy an airsoft gun for it because retailers need insurance and your company registration. 

But I was wondering if it's legal to remove the two tone pain from a gun for a film?

I know it's illegal to remove two tone from an air soft gun, but if I use it for a film I can prove it was for film, so according to the law it should theoretically be legal?

I just want to check before I do it because it's a grey area, I was thinking about getting a glock BB co2 replica to use instead because it's legal but it's very expensive and i don't think I'll be able to fire it empty which is what I need.