Reason to not trust anyone with your own safety?

[Rogerborg]

The last 10 airsoft games I went to I had game zone eye pro (full seal goggles) and safe zone eye pro (shooting glasses rated safe for gamezone), I was never without eye pro.

That is a good shout. As god is my witness, I will never be without eyepro again.

There is no excuse for crap marshalling

To be fair, there's the pragmatic situation that marshals may be unpaid volunteers, gifting their time instead of playing.  I'd hesitate to point a finger and say "You're doing a bad job, at the job I won't do!"

I say I'd hesitate because if I lose an eye in the safe zone, you can be damn sure I'll be going after the deepest pockets around, volunteers or not.  The silly waivers that sites make us sign are a waste of ink - you can't disclaim away a statutory duty of care, and the more you say "TERRRRRIBAD DANGER!" the bigger stick you're making for your own back when you fail in that duty.

Incidentally, unpaid volunteers can be liable where a duty of care is established: see Vowles vs Evans and the WRU.  Something to bear in mind if you're tempted to volunteer to marshal.

 

[Sacarathe]

Something to bear in mind if you're tempted to volunteer to marshal.

Especially if you have deep pockets.

 

[Duff]

No. Just no spare eye.

Oh thank God. 

 

[djben9]

In my mind every site should have a marshall by the safe zone checking every mag is out and have everyone fire off a couple of shots before entering after each game and then no dry firing once in the SZ.

Most players should know better but unfortunately many seem not to. 

All sites i play at, this happens, only site where dry firing is apparent occasionally , is Urban Assault. Its not supposed to but people do as they just dont listen to safety briefing but talk through it or dont read the rules on the email

 

[Druid799]

There is no excuse for crap marshalling and sloppy rules on a site. We know as players its a potentially dangerous game and they do all they can to pass blame with waivers and warnings etc but some good training and discipline will take an average site into a well run one! I dont see how many sites can get it wrong.

There will always be human error and idiots in the safe zone, we know this, but by reinforcing the rules and the dangers after each game with weapons checks and marshals being present in the safe zone in between games (on so many sites they all fuck off somewhere and you can never find someone for help or to ask a question) you can help lower the odds and the site will seem to be run more professionally than others and gain a better reputation = more customers = more money!! 

Tis quite simple business sense!

How many marshals does your sit have on a game day ? How many players ? How bigs the safezone ? Is it one big room or multiple rooms ? All questions relevant to this discussion.

Does your sites marshals walk around the safezone continually scanning the players like prison officers checking there not breaking any site rules ? I’ve never seen it at any site I’ve been too .

Your point about the marshals disappearing in between games , we pay to go there and play , we’re all adults (and one would hope any under 18s are with a supervising adult) so quite frankly once the rules have been given why should they continually police the safezone ? When you go to a pub are the pub staff continually walking around watching your every move ? No , they assess you when you first enter and then when you go too the bar to get more drinks and when there collecting empty’s .

So me personally I really fail to see how this can be crap marshalling and sloppy rules if a player decides he or she are above the rules and breaks them ?

you can not control stupidity , ultimately you reach a point where you have to rely on people policing them selves . 

 

[clumpyedge]

That is a good shout. As god is my witness, I will never be without eyepro again.

To be fair, there's the pragmatic situation that marshals may be unpaid volunteers, gifting their time instead of playing.  I'd hesitate to point a finger and say "You're doing a bad job, at the job I won't do!"

I say I'd hesitate because if I lose an eye in the safe zone, you can be damn sure I'll be going after the deepest pockets around, volunteers or not.  The silly waivers that sites make us sign are a waste of ink - you can't disclaim away a statutory duty of care, and the more you say "TERRRRRIBAD DANGER!" the bigger stick you're making for your own back when you fail in that duty.

Incidentally, unpaid volunteers can be liable where a duty of care is established: see Vowles vs Evans and the WRU.  Something to bear in mind if you're tempted to volunteer to marshal.

Having said all that, the majority of incidents that have come up recently have been because of a players own stupidity why by they have either done something they shouldn't. You cant sue someone for you being a dick, not without a good lawyer.

I mean if after strict instructions in the site rules and brief that you are not to put a mag in your gun or discharge a gun in the safe zone you then do so and take your eye out id challenge anyone to then put that blame on a site owner/marshal.... that being said most "useless waivers" do have a tick box that says you have read/listened and understood the safety rules of the site.

 

[Wo1f]

This^ you don’t need safezone nazi’s. Having the rules stricter and your every move being watched is just a bandage for the symptom. You not as a group of adults just act like it? I don’t think I’ve ever seen anything stupid in any safe zone in the sites I play at. You get the odd player coming through the netting with a mag in, but someone points it out to them and they go back out, clear it and come back in with no issues. Don’t ever remember an accidental discharge or anything like that. 

 

[clumpyedge]

How many marshals does your sit have on a game day ? How many players ? How bigs the safezone ? Is it one big room or multiple rooms ? All questions relevant to this discussion.

Does your sites marshals walk around the safezone continually scanning the players like prison officers checking there not breaking any site rules ? I’ve never seen it at any site I’ve been too .

Your point about the marshals disappearing in between games , we pay to go there and play , we’re all adults (and one would hope any under 18s are with a supervising adult) so quite frankly once the rules have been given why should they continually police the safezone ? When you go to a pub are the pub staff continually walking around watching your every move ? No , they assess you when you first enter and then when you go too the bar to get more drinks and when there collecting empty’s .

So me personally I really fail to see how this can be crap marshalling and sloppy rules if a player decides he or she are above the rules and breaks them ?

you can not control stupidity , ultimately you reach a point where you have to rely on people policing them selves . 

Not to mention that marshals also deserve a lunch/tea break god forbid they move off to an area of the safezone to chill out after hearding cats... I mean airsofters around for the morning...

This^ you don’t need safezone nazi’s. Having the rules stricter and your every move being watched is just a bandage for the symptom. You not as a group of adults just act like it? I don’t think I’ve ever seen anything stupid in any safe zone in the sites I play at. You get the odd player coming through the netting with a mag in, but someone points it out to them and they go back out, clear it and come back in with no issues. Don’t ever remember an accidental discharge or anything like that. 

I would also say as an addage to this that its not just adults (I know you probably meant everyone not just adults) but if little bobby's parents feel he is old enough and mature enough to be trusted with a BB gun which for all intensive purposes can inflict serious damage if handled improperly then they deserve to be chewed out like an adult as well if they act inappropriately IMO (not that I have done this while working but sometimes I wish I could)

Again I'll use the chrono in the morning as an example all age ranges that come to chrono which we do in the netted off firing range seem to struggle with basic muzzle discipline let alone remembering eyepro, not putting a mag in until you get into the range and more...

Sometimes no amount of telling people can change the fact that some just lack any common sense (you could argue that it doesnt actually even exist)

 

[Albiscuit]

To be fair, there's the pragmatic situation that marshals may be unpaid volunteers, gifting their time instead of playing.  I'd hesitate to point a finger and say "You're doing a bad job, at the job I won't do!"

I say I'd hesitate because if I lose an eye in the safe zone, you can be damn sure I'll be going after the deepest pockets around, volunteers or not.  The silly waivers that sites make us sign are a waste of ink - you can't disclaim away a statutory duty of care, and the more you say "TERRRRRIBAD DANGER!" the bigger stick you're making for your own back when you fail in that duty.

Incidentally, unpaid volunteers can be liable where a duty of care is established: see Vowles vs Evans and the WRU.  Something to bear in mind if you're tempted to volunteer to marshal.

I manage volunteers in my day job and wouldn't mind Marshaling, have to time to play let alone be a marshal so wont happen though lol but I would happily let a site manager know if a marshal, paid or volunteer was doing a crap job, unfortunately from what I hear its not usually one, but the culture of the site! Same way if someone had a complaint about one of my volunteers I would take it seriously, although in my field I HAVE to and with our what feels like  400 policies and procedures its nothing like saying, 'Cmon Bob, pull your socks up and check the guns properly'

But reviews on here are great for getting a sense of this and knowing where to avoid.

 

[ImTriggerHappy]

I manage volunteers in my day job and wouldn't mind Marshaling,

Most airsofters think this but trust me it is not as much fun as you think. 

Marshalling is basically having to second guess every thing you say. Then you and the site get put on bookface trial every few weeks by someone who doesn't know how to behave but blames everybody but themselves.

 

[Albiscuit]

How many marshals does your sit have on a game day ? How many players ? How bigs the safezone ? Is it one big room or multiple rooms ? All questions relevant to this discussion.

Does your sites marshals walk around the safezone continually scanning the players like prison officers checking there not breaking any site rules ? I’ve never seen it at any site I’ve been too .

Your point about the marshals disappearing in between games , we pay to go there and play , we’re all adults (and one would hope any under 18s are with a supervising adult) so quite frankly once the rules have been given why should they continually police the safezone ? When you go to a pub are the pub staff continually walking around watching your every move ? No , they assess you when you first enter and then when you go too the bar to get more drinks and when there collecting empty’s .

So me personally I really fail to see how this can be crap marshalling and sloppy rules if a player decides he or she are above the rules and breaks them ?

you can not control stupidity , ultimately you reach a point where you have to rely on people policing them selves . 

Fair points, but my comment about not seeing a marshal wasnt about them keeping an eye on players, more of a being around to help out. Theres always people asking questions regarding the day, the site, how to use their weird charger system or having an issue that generally a marshal should deal with. SOME sights, not all, have marshals who are visible, others are nowhere to be seen. All I am saying is visible staff make for a better run site as questions can be answered and if they hear any bitching, or see/hear dry firing or something similar then they can remind players of the rules.

I get some sites are harder to manage etc, but then this is responsibility of the site. If I went somewhere and there was 2 marshals covering 4 safe zone areas, multiple exit points and what seemed like none in the game I would be reluctant to go back.

A minimum SENSIBLE ratio needs to be put in place on any site, and ideally the site will ensure there are more than the minimum! The Mall get this right. There seems to be loads of marshals plus player marshals as they know they need eye and ears everywhere.

It still doesnt stop bad reviews saying lack of marshals though.....

To me its not about policing the players, more of a professional approach to things. Enough staff (paid or not) all knowing the rules and procedures to ensure the players have a good day, not about marshals fucking about or letting their mates off or not caring. A good site where marshals are trained to deal with stuff and are shit hot on safety over fun wins in my eyes!

Having said all that, the majority of incidents that have come up recently have been because of a players own stupidity why by they have either done something they shouldn't. You cant sue someone for you being a dick, not without a good lawyer.

Always will be the case sadly

My point is that a visible marshal may have the opportunity to stop something silly before it becomes dangerous is all..

Again I'll use the chrono in the morning as an example all age ranges that come to chrono which we do in the netted off firing range seem to struggle with basic muzzle discipline let alone remembering eyepro, not putting a mag in until you get into the range and more...

Sometimes no amount of telling people can change the fact that some just lack any common sense (you could argue that it doesnt actually even exist)

But why cant sites enforce this a little more? If we all picked up better habits then we would all be safer in the long run? 

Not saying we have to go through training to use a RIF, but if sites had more of a similar brief/rule system in place or an induction to the new site and rules it would minimise risks and injury surely?

 

[clumpyedge]

Fair points, but my comment about not seeing a marshal wasnt about them keeping an eye on players, more of a being around to help out. Theres always people asking questions regarding the day, the site, how to use their weird charger system or having an issue that generally a marshal should deal with. SOME sights, not all, have marshals who are visible, others are nowhere to be seen. All I am saying is visible staff make for a better run site as questions can be answered and if they hear any bitching, or see/hear dry firing or something similar then they can remind players of the rules.

I get some sites are harder to manage etc, but then this is responsibility of the site. If I went somewhere and there was 2 marshals covering 4 safe zone areas, multiple exit points and what seemed like none in the game I would be reluctant to go back.

A minimum SENSIBLE ratio needs to be put in place on any site, and ideally the site will ensure there are more than the minimum! The Mall get this right. There seems to be loads of marshals plus player marshals as they know they need eye and ears everywhere.

It still doesnt stop bad reviews saying lack of marshals though.....

To me its not about policing the players, more of a professional approach to things. Enough staff (paid or not) all knowing the rules and procedures to ensure the players have a good day, not about marshals fucking about or letting their mates off or not caring. A good site where marshals are trained to deal with stuff and are shit hot on safety over fun wins in my eyes!

Always will be the case sadly

My point is that a visible marshal may have the opportunity to stop something silly before it becomes dangerous is all..

But why cant sites enforce this a little more? If we all picked up better habits then we would all be safer in the long run? 

Not saying we have to go through training to use a RIF, but if sites had more of a similar brief/rule system in place or an induction to the new site and rules it would minimise risks and injury surely?

We as marshals always try to educate at our site but unfortunately you always have people that either dont listen or think they know best. Having done real steel shooting in various forms I would dream of acting the way some people do with their rifs, I know they are vastly different in what they produce power wise but there is still the real risk of injury or life changing accidents.

I agree with you that having a marshal around can stop accidents happening and majority of places do have someone wondering around but again its almost expected in some cases that more experienced players would help out if they see something that is untoward same goes for anyone in general really, they don't have to stop the action if they don't feel comfortable but (and I'm speaking for our safe zone) the area is small enough to find a marshal or management on my site.

I think you've been unlucky in where you have played if you cant find a member of staff, having played sites as big as places as combat airsoft in Thetford I've still managed to find a marshal or DS that i could raise an issue with.

 

[Duff]

You know what pissed me off about Absolute? Their two token marshalls firing at players. High viz on, clearly not playing yet revelled in firing aimlessly into the gamezone at players.

I mean what the fuck are you supposed to do as a player if hit and you see a Marshall clearly out of the game peppering the ever loving shit out out players on both sides randomly. 

Wow now that I think back to it it really pissed me off.

 

[Jedi_Master]

I have been test shot by a Marshall at a site.  I felt a hit, put my hand up and called it - no idea where the shot had come from -and then the Marshall appeared and told me to put my hand down and play on.  That worked well because it was done properly.

 

[Duff]

I have been test shot by a Marshall at a site.  I felt a hit, put my hand up and called it - no idea where the shot had come from -and then the Marshall appeared and told me to put my hand down and play on.  That worked well because it was done properly.

I've also had that the very first night I played at the Mall, confused the fluq out of me.

They weren't checking for players taking hits at Absolute they were just having fun.

 

[Arwen]

Sometimes the marshalls at my local site can end up like that... I just shoot them back now I know most of them hate nipple shots 

 

[Duff]

Sometimes the marshalls at my local site can end up like that... I just shoot them back now I know most of them hate nipple shots 

At the end of the day, sure... walking back between games, sure... during an objective based game with limited spawns because you're bored, get fucked. Most of the players they were hitting had no idea, basically sending lob shots across a field. If you want to play then play don't Marshall then throw doubt into a game because you're bored.

/rant

OK I'm getting back in my box now.

 

[clumpyedge]

At the end of the day, sure... walking back between games, sure... during an objective based game with limited spawns because you're bored, get fucked. Most of the players they were hitting had no idea, basically sending lob shots across a field. If you want to play then play don't Marshall then throw doubt into a game because you're bored.

/rant

OK I'm getting back in my box now.

Yeah that's bullshit, We do as Jedi stated. For the most part its testing to see if a problem player is playing correctly but we have to be fair and do it to a few people to make sure you don't get accused of singling people out, most take it on the chin and don't have any issues with it as they can play on as Jedi also said but others (even though its mentioned in the brief that it can and will happen) get on their high horse and get ratty.

Ive had it happen to me on a few occasions, so long as the marshal actually approaches you and is not doing it to you at a critical time of the game then I don't see an issue with it.

 

[Tackle]

Yep, lost count of the number of times I've shot someone in the ass, only for them to rub it & then play on as if it never happened, followed by a request for them to head back to the safe zone for 20 minutes of quite contemplation ?

 

[Druid799]

Fair points, but my comment about not seeing a marshal wasnt about them keeping an eye on players, more of a being around to help out. Theres always people asking questions regarding the day, the site, how to use their weird charger system or having an issue that generally a marshal should deal with. SOME sights, not all, have marshals who are visible, others are nowhere to be seen. All I am saying is visible staff make for a better run site as questions can be answered and if they hear any bitching, or see/hear dry firing or something similar then they can remind players of the rules.

I get some sites are harder to manage etc, but then this is responsibility of the site. If I went somewhere and there was 2 marshals covering 4 safe zone areas, multiple exit points and what seemed like none in the game I would be reluctant to go back.

A minimum SENSIBLE ratio needs to be put in place on any site, and ideally the site will ensure there are more than the minimum! The Mall get this right. There seems to be loads of marshals plus player marshals as they know they need eye and ears everywhere.

It still doesnt stop bad reviews saying lack of marshals though.....

To me its not about policing the players, more of a professional approach to things. Enough staff (paid or not) all knowing the rules and procedures to ensure the players have a good day, not about marshals fucking about or letting their mates off or not caring. A good site where marshals are trained to deal with stuff and are shit hot on safety over fun wins in my eyes!

Always will be the case sadly

My point is that a visible marshal may have the opportunity to stop something silly before it becomes dangerous is all..

But why cant sites enforce this a little more? If we all picked up better habits then we would all be safer in the long run? 

Not saying we have to go through training to use a RIF, but if sites had more of a similar brief/rule system in place or an induction to the new site and rules it would minimise risks and injury surely?

I do see where you coming from mate , but as clumpy said you must have been playing at a very poorly run site if you couldn’t see/find any site representatives in between games like that and I for one wouldn’t be going back there again . An example of this but with a 180’ turn on it I travel about 2hrs to my ‘home’ site in Bristol from where I live due to it being what I’d concider an excellently run site , has the right balance of on site control AND player freedom .