- Thread starter
- #41
Not personally. But say this guy didn't sit calmly and grabbed a member of the public as a hostage? In that particular situation armed police would be a better response.
Again totally situational.
Armed Police - Yes or No
- Thread starter Duff
- Start date
Not personally. But say this guy didn't sit calmly and grabbed a member of the public as a hostage? In that particular situation armed police would be a better response.
Again totally situational.
Countryman
Members
- Jan 22, 2018
- 103
- 3
Absolutely. If the guy stood in the shop waving the knife about you can be sure the ARV would be there before anyone went in.
There are better arguments for arming the police. Look at how the attack on Westminster Bridge/ Parliament was stopped.
There are better arguments for arming the police. Look at how the attack on Westminster Bridge/ Parliament was stopped.
Countryman
Members
- Jan 22, 2018
- 103
- 3
Me too.
If our Police want to review that situation then that has to be their right. I would be very against it being something forced on them but politicians or some press fuelled outcry.
If our Police want to review that situation then that has to be their right. I would be very against it being something forced on them but politicians or some press fuelled outcry.
Pepper Spray is a prohibited weapon in the Firearms Act. You would face proscecution as a firearm. Potentially a mandatory 5 year sentence.
- Oct 7, 2017
- 6,097
- 5,432
Lol, Less lethal ?, obviously you've never seen baton rounds in use, they are highly unstable & uncontrollable, & always potentially lethal, hence why no uk police force has deployed them on the mainland.
on the plus side, the spent rounds make a great chucking/chew toy for big dogs, my old dogs used to love them & they're pretty much indestructible
The good lady wife ran the Brighton marathon yesterday, and I was nipping between town, my brother's flat, and the seafront all day.
Seeing three heavily armed - G36's with all the trimmings - officers in Churchill Square surprised me to the point of thinking it was a skirmish day, and seeing three more in the event village later on with a G36, GL and H&K 417 just seemed odd. The thought of 7.62's buzzing around in the event of 'an event' perturbed me, even though I think I'd prefer that to an unarmed 'Bobby' trying to stop a vehicle or Mumbai-type attack...
... Scary times.
Seeing three heavily armed - G36's with all the trimmings - officers in Churchill Square surprised me to the point of thinking it was a skirmish day, and seeing three more in the event village later on with a G36, GL and H&K 417 just seemed odd. The thought of 7.62's buzzing around in the event of 'an event' perturbed me, even though I think I'd prefer that to an unarmed 'Bobby' trying to stop a vehicle or Mumbai-type attack...
... Scary times.
Totally against more, kind of on the fence with the ones we have with the high profile feck ups and dubious evidence produced afterwards.
Militarisation of civilian jobs is becoming a theme over the world and its a by-product of everything else happening.
USA for example is ridiculous, pretty much ALL of their forces are militarised to the point the ATF, CIA and FBI have more combined firepower than most European countries. Not even including the SWAT, Local cops and other organisations its crazy!!
Glad there are some really level and reasonable responses in this thread. Love how people know coppers and have asked and the responses are similar and in line with most people on here. No really off the wall right wing replies yet!
Militarisation of civilian jobs is becoming a theme over the world and its a by-product of everything else happening.
USA for example is ridiculous, pretty much ALL of their forces are militarised to the point the ATF, CIA and FBI have more combined firepower than most European countries. Not even including the SWAT, Local cops and other organisations its crazy!!
Glad there are some really level and reasonable responses in this thread. Love how people know coppers and have asked and the responses are similar and in line with most people on here. No really off the wall right wing replies yet!
clumpyedge
AF-UK patch owner
- Aug 5, 2013
- 2,216
- 579
Lol, Less lethal ?, obviously you've never seen baton rounds in use, they are highly unstable & uncontrollable, & always potentially lethal, hence why no uk police force has deployed them on the mainland.
on the plus side, the spent rounds make a great chucking/chew toy for big dogs, my old dogs used to love them & they're pretty much indestructible
I have seen them used...
They are used in mainland UK arn't they? pretty much every police documentary going shows armed units having them in their kit? or am i just being naive?
Where do batons fit into the weapons act? just curious as while I dont agree with all police carrying guns the majority do carry something that could cause harm and potentially death if they aren't handled correctly (taser/spray/baton)
Last edited by a moderator:
Baton rounds have been approved for use on mainland UK, and I believe have been used at least once other than the obvious NI use
A baton round would be a projectile and it’s launcher a firearm.
Theoretically it may be possible to get licenced for one, but unless you’re issued it in the army or police it’s not going to happen.
An extendable baton etc is pretty much just a special stick, not necessarily illegal to own a truncheon or baton, but if possessed for self Defence etc it is a weapon, and other than NI self Defence is not justification for possessing a weapon.
With the police I’m happy with the current situation - armed response teams, plus approved trained officers that can sign out a weapon when required. Then in specific locations and situations having armed police around
I am familiar with being around weapons from my job. I daily go through armed security and am used to it at work or in central London, key locations etc without paying any particular attend but I will notice arms on the street when it’s not the norm. I’m not intimidated by the armed officer, but it does raise my awareness as there must be a reason for it
Odd occasions where I have particularly noticed are as a school kid at the Eiffel Tower noticing the abundance of armed police, getting stopped at an armed roadblock in the south of France in the early hours with my heart beating then just getting breathalised, going to work for a few months with an LSW hanging in my car window while my pass was checked, and a poser in mirrored shades slapping his brand new MP7 in my face when he learnt across me to the driver - I gave him a few choice words
Its no longer the old days with my rose tinted glasses when I would take the shortcut to school across Woolwich parade square with a squadron on either end with just pick axe handle s giving me dirty looks
However I’m happy with the current balance and each force prioritizing the situation.
I think there needs to be far more armed police units in general, and much better organised, but as far as arming all officers as standard, I would say no.
Certain things need to change though. It was good thinking for the BTP officers to have suppressors as standard, but I can’t imagine an LMT Defender with a 14.5” barrel, plus a suppressor on the end, can be that maneouvreable inside a packed train. Have seen HK417s in town and I don’t like the idea of behind whoever is shot at with one of those.
Also there doesn’t seem to be any consistency and a lot of red tape - saw footage of an armed response unit be called and was 30 minutes away. There by chance happened to be another ARV drive past and stop, but they weren’t the specific unit authorised for that specific call because of something to do with some ammunition they were carrying which was softpoint instead of FMJ or something like that, so they just had to drive on and leave the regular officers on their own for half an hour waiting. It’s the little things like that that make me scream “WHY?! JUST CUT THE S***!”
Certain things need to change though. It was good thinking for the BTP officers to have suppressors as standard, but I can’t imagine an LMT Defender with a 14.5” barrel, plus a suppressor on the end, can be that maneouvreable inside a packed train. Have seen HK417s in town and I don’t like the idea of behind whoever is shot at with one of those.
Also there doesn’t seem to be any consistency and a lot of red tape - saw footage of an armed response unit be called and was 30 minutes away. There by chance happened to be another ARV drive past and stop, but they weren’t the specific unit authorised for that specific call because of something to do with some ammunition they were carrying which was softpoint instead of FMJ or something like that, so they just had to drive on and leave the regular officers on their own for half an hour waiting. It’s the little things like that that make me scream “WHY?! JUST CUT THE S***!”
My mum went on a shooting range, changed from “guns are scary” to “look at me!” peppering the backstop with an MP5 on full autosteakandpotato said:
Last edited by a moderator:
- Oct 7, 2017
- 6,097
- 5,432
All units have them, to be qualified to use one is different from "normal" firearms qualifications, as they perform & react differently to normal rounds.
the rounds themselves are assembled by the officers responsible for them, & they use the old fashioned Black Powder as a propellant, this gives a much bigger flash & more smoke, all designed to intimidate those its being used against.
BUT to the best of my (& my co19 mate), they've never been fired against crowds on the uk mainland, mainly because no senior officer has been prepared to authorise their use, & take responsibility if a round bounces up in to someone's head, usually killing them.
but you might have seen the guns used to deploy c's/tear gas type canisters to disperse crowds, different kettle of fish completely.
Last edited by a moderator:
Lozart
Supporters
- Jun 24, 2013
- 8,493
- 4,942
I remember the old days of baton rounds be used in NI and the amount of serious injuries and deaths they caused! Mostly through being used incorrectly I might add (fired too close mostly).
steakandpotato
Members
- Jan 14, 2018
- 256
- 2
Spent 6 years living abroad. Had to give up the shooting when we came back to the UK unfortunately.
- Oct 20, 2012
- 5,113
- 1,694
I also lived abroad for ~5 years and shot a few things. It was fun but I don't miss it hugely. I think we were around the same place @AshOnSnow and hopefully you'll agree that there are certainly far more positives in coming back than staying there for too long 
Guns are mechanically super interesting, but people make mistakes (even well trained ones). I don't believe due process can be had (no matter how well intentioned an office might be) in a split second decision to draw a gun and that's why I prefer that our police have to call them in. Frankly our crime rates are still extremely low by most metrics, and whilst I appreciate that a binary decision like 'arm the police' is something tangible that everyone can have a clear-cut opinion on, the real debate is to be made in that grey area of litigation, reformation of offenders, sentencing guidelines, jurisdictional bias etc. These things don't usually get their own forum threads because they're dull and require an nuanced essay just to get your opinion out on.
Guns are mechanically super interesting, but people make mistakes (even well trained ones). I don't believe due process can be had (no matter how well intentioned an office might be) in a split second decision to draw a gun and that's why I prefer that our police have to call them in. Frankly our crime rates are still extremely low by most metrics, and whilst I appreciate that a binary decision like 'arm the police' is something tangible that everyone can have a clear-cut opinion on, the real debate is to be made in that grey area of litigation, reformation of offenders, sentencing guidelines, jurisdictional bias etc. These things don't usually get their own forum threads because they're dull and require an nuanced essay just to get your opinion out on.
Last edited by a moderator:
There is a difference in performance in soft point and full metal jacket, and
It doubt it was a matter of not cutting the shit and going in first
There was something not right for the situation. I expect the wrong ARV that was second on scene, or ignoring the call were not needed right now by the first normal bobbies and it was possible to wait that half an hour with the situation contained
It could be that the ARVs our and about have x standard ARV equipment, but the situation needed y ARV equipment, or a qualified & experienced negotiator etc
It it was an absolute deal with it now situation then everyone available would have been heading directly to the scene
In the US the police are trained to go out with number one priority stay alive, better to Tib judged then carried in a coffin. One more dead criminal is one less to deal with, and if you make a mistake then at least you came home alive. Whereas in the UK it’s primarily to calm the situation, avoid escalating further and deal with it in court bringing criminals to justice
clumpyedge
AF-UK patch owner
- Aug 5, 2013
- 2,216
- 579
Just thinking out loud and not knowing a hell of a lot about them but how would simtac round fair as an alternative to conventional "less than lethal rounds" could they be used to distract rather than incapacitate?
clumpyedge
AF-UK patch owner
- Aug 5, 2013
- 2,216
- 579
To be honest like I say I was thinking out loud, not sure what capacity I was thinking they would use them from small scale to large scale but not knowing much about them I don't know in what aspect if any they would become useful other than training like they are used for now?
I know this is the daily fail but I actually saw the incident somewhere else before on the mail website.... a raise in knife and gun crime does make me think if officers don't want to be armed with firearms they should at least all carry tasers, which I believe currently not everyone is?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5626907/Police-officer-thought-going-DIE-estate-agent-stabbed-him.html
I know this is the daily fail but I actually saw the incident somewhere else before on the mail website.... a raise in knife and gun crime does make me think if officers don't want to be armed with firearms they should at least all carry tasers, which I believe currently not everyone is?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5626907/Police-officer-thought-going-DIE-estate-agent-stabbed-him.html
Last edited by a moderator:
I also lived abroad for ~5 years and shot a few things. It was fun but I don't miss it hugely. I think we were around the same place @AshOnSnow and hopefully you'll agree that there are certainly far more positives in coming back than staying there for too long
Oh definitely. Towards the end, it was definitely becoming morally difficult to stay there with everything that was going on behind the scenes, not shooting holes in targets with pistols is a small price to pay for being back home.
It was to put a headshot in a muntjac fawn at 2am whose legs had been crushed by an HGV. I’m no ballistics expert, but I’m pretty sure any 5.56 would be more than sufficient. IMO, not only did it leave an animal suffering longer than it had to, but it also stopped 2 other units from being able to go out and carry on with their job. It’s just an example of red tape getting in the way of being practical, especially with what is effectively a very simple thing to deal with.
Last edited by a moderator:
I can actually answer this one.
Any 5.56 would definatley not be sufficient
I used to work with a guy who was the areas official go to guy for injured deer etc, he also worked on Stings estate
He did the majority of his shooting with a camera but also conducted deer management and was on call to the police. Therefore he securely carried a rifle in his car.
Whenever I had to go to offices up in the West Midlands if I let him know where & when I was going he would try and get me redirected to a shop for collecting ammunition and reloading parts. He used a vast series of target and hunting ammunition which was often classified in the opposite way to his actual use.
Certain items could only be collected in person by him with all his paperwork, others could be collected by anyone and may or may not have needed me to have his paperwork and ID
Any firearms officer may not know the correct method & point of aim, thus the wrong officer may be prohibited from firing the shot unless absolutely necessary at that moment.
The wrong ammunition (say standard fmj) could even go straight through the brain and leave a live muntjac now with crushed legs and a hole in its head, or say the wrong soft point may spin, shatter etc and the head explode
A muntjac with an exploding head is going to be out of its misery - but what force is going to blow the head off bambi with any passers by, let alone a tv crew ?)
Those units being prevented from doing their job were doing their job. Either that force / area don’t have an alternative with the vets or civilian deer management etc, or there wasn’t an out of hours / 2am service in place or available in a timely manner
The animal was suffering, that’s nature and if no one had got to it or noticed then it would have died in pain over hours on the side of the road or crawled away to die in pain over hours - and be Fox food
The right person with the right ammunition will have been there as soon as they could, and if another incident took priority they would have been dealing with that in priority against an injured animal
