How I'm understanding UKARA

[scalawag]

Collecting is not one of the VCRA defences

Target shooting is not a VCRA defence - it doesn't have to look real and can function perfectly well as a 2 tone

Sites may be happy to let you turn up, but I doubt a site would let you turn up, not participate - and would probably be conspiring to defraud if they let you turn up just to get a card stamped to prove your skirmisher status without skirmishing  (and not pay? - if you were to turn up, sign in and pay, hang around,  but not actually play they may not notice or care (they may be suspicious of you hanging around the safe zone around everyone's kit when people go out to play)

Well, I don't think any of us were questioning what the law says the defences are, perhaps you should read the posts again more thoroughly.

Personally, I think it will only be a matter of time before the skirmish defence is also questioned and possibly amended.

I know some people who would argue that an airsoft gun does not need to to be an RIF in order to Skirmish with it either.  

I suppose paintball could be seen as an example of a similar activity where the weapons used are not made to look like realistic firearms.  That works really well and has done for years with no RIFs.

I wonder if it would be farer if all Airsoft sales were 2 tone then?  

I wonder why you would think it is necessary for an airsoft gun used for skirmishing to be an RIF any more than one used for target shooting?

Can skirmishing not be done with 2 tone guns?  

I do understand that 2 tone guns will stand out more and compromise camouflage whilst skirmishing, but surely that does not affect how they operate?  The look of an airsoft gun does not affect the function for target shooting apparently, so why should this be different for skirmishing.

Anyway.....

So the colour is potentially an issue for skirmishing, ok here is an idea, perhaps airsoft guns for Skirmishing could be black or other subdued colours but not resemble real firearms?  Why do skirmishing airsoft guns need to look like real firearms?  

If the guns used were subdued in colour, but did not resemble any real firearm, that would surely work and not impinge on the mechanics of how skirmishing works?  

It would obviously affect how a skirmisher might look, but as you yourself pointed out the way something looks does not affect the function.

If all Airsoft guns met these criteria, i.e. they can be subdued but not resemble any pattern of real firearm, or they can resemble a real firearm but must then be 2 tone, then there would be no further need for a defence before a gun can be sold.

Or would not owning an RIF spoil your enjoyment of Airsoft too?

If you would not be happy using a 2 tone airsoft gun or one that did not resemble a real firearm for your chosen airsoft activity what makes you think that anyone else would be happy using one for a different airsoft activity?  Once you can undertstand this perhaps it becomes more apparent to you why those who do not skirmish, but love airsoft, feel the need to ventilate about the apparent inequality of the defences stated in this piece of legislation.  Not questioning what the law says, but debating how it could be farer to all who love airsoft guns.

I also wonder, if what you enjoy about airsoft was to be affected in this sort of way,  would you feel the same way about it as you do now, or would you have a little more compassion and understanding for others who are prevented from doing what they enjoy in the airsoft hobby.

Since I am sure that, judging from your previous replies, your reply this time will be along the lines of "none of this maters because the law says that skirmishers can have RIFs anyway", I won't be sticking around to look for it. I have better things to do with my time.

As to the other issues addressed in your post regarding attending sites lets not even go there.  Think about the people who go through the whole rigmarole to get a UKARA registration just to get an RIF.  They are there I know some of them as they have a similar interest in Airsoft as I do.  How many UKARA registrations do not get renewed each year I wonder?

Anyway enough of this.

Lets hope that public opinion does not turn against a hobby that involves shooting realistic looking guns at other people, and you loose something you enjoy too.  This law has put us half way there and rest assured that politicians will not hesitate to close it down completely if that is what they think the public at large would want.  It wins them votes, or at least does not lose them votes and it is exactly what has happened in Australia.  The average person on the street these days does not think that guns of any kind or pseudo violence are good things for society, and it is only a mater of time before some enterprising MP decides they can make a name for themself by eradicating airsoft from the UK completely.  No one really needs an RIF.

Happy Skirmishing.

 

[scalawag]

The defence is only for Airsoft skirmishing, it was justified by our requirement for realism.  If you're not skirmishing then you don't have a requirement and therefore no entitlement. 

Put simply, in order to qualify for a skirmisher's defence you must be an Airsoft skirmisher. 

Ok cool,  Thats me out of airsoft then as I am sure is the same for you I do not wish to own 2 tone airsoft guns (how many 2 tones do you own and use regularly).  

it seems the law precludes me from acquiring what I would like to own, even though actually owning it is not illegal.  Is that discriminatory? possibly, but that doesn't matter eh! cos you still have what you want. Who cares about anyone else.

Read the posts again and you will see that the current defences where not questioned or misunderstood so really no need to remind of them yet again.  My posts were about the inequalities in the law as it stands and not about what the law says.

What I think is very questionable from what you have said is airsoft skirmishings assertion of its need for realism.  There is absolutely no need for an RIF in skirmishing.  It is nice to have, and it completes the look, but a non realistic looking airsoft gun will work just as well at a skirmish as an RIF, so need realism, nah you don't, no more than anyone else does.  Airsoft skirmishers wanting RIFs to complete a look is not the same as needing an RIF.  This I think is a very unconvincing argument, especially in the current social climate. Needing a realistic looking gun to shoot at other people even in a controlled environment would be ludicrous to the public at large.

Good luck with that when this law comes up for amendment, which it will.  

Oh and you had the support of people like me last time it was debated, lobbying government on behalf of all of the airsoft comunity, you won't get it again next time as I will be doing something else now.

Byee.

 

[James1989]

Byee

 

[Andyraven]

It's not £150 for a UKARA number, it's £150 of taking part and playing - taking part in the the activity of airsoft skirmishing which is one of the defences for a RIF

If you're a re-enactor then you have one of the other defences

Uhm yea it is aleast £150 for a UKARA number. You need to play aleast 3 games on a UKARA site before you can buy a none two-tone RiF. most sites charge £50 for hire and walk on is £25. that extra cash you would save could have gone onto a decent first RIF and your own gear.

and yes i have another form of defence But thats me. others who are getting into the sport need a defence to buy none two-tone RiFs and the easist one to get is a UKARA but i must say its one of the most expensive.

 

[Andyraven]

you can't compare painball with Airsoft as the goverment doesn't.

Airsoft have the sh*tty end of the stick. Go look at some painball guns what take mags. you dont need a UKARA, Defence or two-tone to buy one. If you're getting robbed at gun point most of you are not going to question if the gun real on not.

what we need to get into the goverments head is a criminal doesn't abid buy the law. two-tones can be painted so really a UKARA solves nothing other then saving Retailers arse's hense thats why it was made.

 

[ImTriggerHappy]

Uhm yea it is aleast £150 for a UKARA number. You need to play aleast 3 games on a UKARA site before you can buy a none two-tone RiF. most sites charge £50 for hire and walk on is £25. that extra cash you would save could have gone onto a decent first RIF and your own gear.

and yes i have another form of defence But thats me. others who are getting into the sport need a defence to buy none two-tone RiFs and the easist one to get is a UKARA but i must say its one of the most expensive.

That still wouldn't work out to a £150 because £75 comes straight off for playing fees so you are only actually paying £75 for the 3 rental packages. 

Then you can take out bbs because they are supplied so say another £15.

So in total its cost you £60 to prove your interest in airsoft is legitimate and that you are a regular skirmisher so no biggie.

I have never had a problem with the UKARA defence and can't understand why some people have a big issue with it. It is a simple solution that helped prevent airsoft becoming more legislated and while it doesn't state UKARA exactly in the vcra it does mention a registration scheme to be set up by retailers and sites in the exemption.

Best thing is to just get on with and stop whining because it could be worse.

 

[Andyraven]

That still wouldn't work out to a £150 because £75 comes straight off for playing fees so you are only actually paying £75 for the 3 rental packages. 

Then you can take out bbs because they are supplied so say another £15.

So in total its cost you £60 to prove your interest in airsoft is legitimate and that you are a regular skirmisher so no biggie.

I have never had a problem with the UKARA defence and can't understand why some people have a big issue with it. It is a simple solution that helped prevent airsoft becoming more legislated and while it doesn't state UKARA exactly in the vcra it does mention a registration scheme to be set up by retailers and sites in the exemption.

Best thing is to just get on with and stop whining because it could be worse.

you're still spending at least £150 it doesnt matter about walk of fees if you dont have any gear and need to hire.

 

[ImTriggerHappy]

you're still spending at least £150 it doesnt matter about walk of fees if you dont have any gear and need to hire.

But you would be spending £90 to play those 3 games if you had your own kit so the difference is £60. So the requirements are actually only making a difference of £60. 

Basic maths and logic.

 

[Andyraven]

But you would be spending £90 to play those 3 games if you had your own kit so the difference is £60. So the requirements are actually only making a difference of £60. 

Basic maths and logic.

well no you would be spending £75 with your own gear. that extra £75 could have gone into a better starter RIF.

to me UKARA sounds a feels like a get rich scheme. I would be more then happy to spend a fixed rate annualy and have that money go towards helping Airsoft to thrive in this country. Instead it goes to the retailers/UKARA sites so they can make abit of extra cash and not get sued.

this is all my own opinion.

 

[sokar666]

My god what

well no you would be spending £75 with your own gear. that extra £75 could have gone into a better starter RIF.

to me UKARA sounds a feels like a get rich scheme. I would be more then happy to spend a fixed rate annualy and have that money go towards helping Airsoft to thrive in this country. Instead it goes to the retailers/UKARA sites so they can make abit of extra cash and not get sued.

this is all my own opinion.

Uhmm how do you answer that, what logic are you using.  What you are basically saying is a non entity database is running a get rich quick scheme by scamming airsofters. You do realise the money you pay goes to the site your using not to an inanimate database.  My local field is £25 walk on, £20 membership, bag of 6000 bb's is £10, gun rental is £20, so that's £55 for the day which would be £165 over 3 games.  I'll put this in big bold letters for the hard of hearing - UKARA DOES NOT GET ANYTHING IT IS A DATABASE SET UP BY RETAILERS, does that help.  If you had a RIF you would still be paying the above mentioned not including gun rental, i really don't see what the issue is.  There are loads that skirmish at my site with two tone guns, doesn's concern them and don't see why it should concern you.  Play your 3 games and paint it, problem solved.  The issue is yourself, you want the RIF and not have to do anything to get it, well not gonna happen so get over it.

 

[ImTriggerHappy]

well no you would be spending £75 with your own gear. that extra £75 could have gone into a better starter RIF.

to me UKARA sounds a feels like a get rich scheme. I would be more then happy to spend a fixed rate annualy and have that money go towards helping Airsoft to thrive in this country. Instead it goes to the retailers/UKARA sites so they can make abit of extra cash and not get sued.

this is all my own opinion.

You are not taking into account the ammo which would be about £15 across 3 games.

The rest of the money goes to the site which covers the cost of the rental weapons and gear.

Once you have done your 3 games you can get site membership which is say £10 a year and thats the real cost of your name being entered on the database  £10 a year.

Site pay a fee to be part of the ukara system and a potion of your membership covers that. You are going on like somewhere there is someone making millions of it all and there isn't.

If it bothers you that much go play golf instead.

 

[sokar666]

You are not taking into account the ammo which would be about £15 across 3 games.

The rest of the money goes to the site which covers the cost of the rental weapons and gear.

Once you have done your 3 games you can get site membership which is say £10 a year and thats the real cost of your name being entered on the database  £10 a year.

Site pay a fee to be part of the ukara system and a potion of your membership covers that. You are going on like somewhere there is someone making millions of it all and there isn't.

If it bothers you that much go play golf instead.

It's like i wrote above, he's making out a database is running some sort of ponsie scheme lol.  You don't wanna pay then don't play, it can't get any simpler.

 

[sokar666]

Ok cool,  Thats me out of airsoft then as I am sure is the same for you I do not wish to own 2 tone airsoft guns (how many 2 tones do you own and use regularly).  

it seems the law precludes me from acquiring what I would like to own, even though actually owning it is not illegal.  Is that discriminatory? possibly, but that doesn't matter eh! cos you still have what you want. Who cares about anyone else.

Read the posts again and you will see that the current defences where not questioned or misunderstood so really no need to remind of them yet again.  My posts were about the inequalities in the law as it stands and not about what the law says.

What I think is very questionable from what you have said is airsoft skirmishings assertion of its need for realism.  There is absolutely no need for an RIF in skirmishing.  It is nice to have, and it completes the look, but a non realistic looking airsoft gun will work just as well at a skirmish as an RIF, so need realism, nah you don't, no more than anyone else does.  Airsoft skirmishers wanting RIFs to complete a look is not the same as needing an RIF.  This I think is a very unconvincing argument, especially in the current social climate. Needing a realistic looking gun to shoot at other people even in a controlled environment would be ludicrous to the public at large.

Good luck with that when this law comes up for amendment, which it will.  

Oh and you had the support of people like me last time it was debated, lobbying government on behalf of all of the airsoft comunity, you won't get it again next time as I will be doing something else now.

Byee.

You have an issue with UKARA defense preventing you from owning a RIF.  But the reality is without the UKARA database, airsoft could have been destroyed for everyone, you are arguing against one of the things that kept airsoft alive in the UK.  Further more UKARA doesnt prevent you from owning a RIF, it just requires you to participate in 3 games, if you don't want to do that buy a two toned, what does it matter you don't need the realism.  Your argument is basically saying i'm being descriminated against because i refuse to play the 3 games, that's not discrimination, you have decided that yourself.  You say why should i have to, well you could say that about about other things in life.  Why am i forced to have a tv license, why do  need to take lessons to drive a car, simple answer because it's the law so get over it.  It really winds me up when i see things like this, people whining because they want everything and not have to do anything for it, winge winge winge all the time.  And by the sound of your replies, airsoft will survive just nicely without you, so don't hit your head on the way out.

 

[Andyraven]

It's like i wrote above, he's making out a database is running some sort of ponsie scheme lol.  You don't wanna pay then don't play, it can't get any simpler.

 i dont have to pay for UKARA as i own another kind of Defence. that i spend £30 a year and  that helps me out in legal advice and fees if somthing happens to me.

what i would like to see is instead of UKARA how about an organization that helps Airsoft players and helps Fund and Defend Airsoft in laws.

UKARA only helps the Retailers not the players. plus the extra money some retailers charge for two-tone paint jobs...cough***Patrol Base***cough.

 

[sokar666]

 i dont have to pay for UKARA as i own another kind of Defence. that i spend £30 a year and  that helps me out in legal advice and fees if somthing happens to me.

what im saying is instead of UKARA how about an organization that helps Airsoft players and helps Fund and Defend Airsoft in laws.

UKARA only helps the Retailers not the players. plus the extra money some retailers charge for two-tone paint jobs...cough***Patrol Base***cough.

Your argument is irrelevant.  If your defense you pay £30 for isn't covered by the VCRA then it is not a valid defence.  Again you want something for free, paint costs money why shouldn't they charge you for painting your gun, that takes time as well.  There are websites that don't charge for two tone, go there instead, no one is forcing you to go to patrolbase.

We already have organisations and groups that fight for airsoft rights in the UK, why would we need another because you don't wanna play 3 games.

My first gun was an ICS Transform4 UK1R, no valid defense so had the stock, pistol grip and rail painted red, used it in my first 3 games, not an issue.  I didn't care about the colour, other people didn't care about the colour.  It is now not red anymore as i have my valid defense, i really don't see what your issue is.  Without UKARA and other forms of defense then airsoft in the UK could have been completely butchered to the point of it not being worth it at all.

 

[Andyraven]

Your argument is irrelevant.  If your defense you pay £30 for isn't covered by the VCRA then it is not a valid defence.  Again you want something for free, paint costs money why shouldn't they charge you for painting your gun, that takes time as well.  There are websites that don't charge for two tone, go there instead, no one is forcing you to go to patrolbase.

We already have organisations and groups that fight for airsoft rights in the UK, why would we need another because you don't wanna play 3 games.

it does cover VCRA  and i get legal help if needed. can you say that for a UKARA holder?

im just saying. some retailers are using the UKARA and making extra money of it. when that money could have gone into an organisation that helps players and helps defend airsoft like my defence does.

 

[sokar666]

it does cover VCRA  and i get legal help if needed. can you say that for a UKARA holder?

im just saying. some retailers are using the UKARA and making extra money of it. when that money could have gone into an organisation that helps players and helps defend airsoft like my defence does.

Who is making extra money from UKARA, a software database.  I'm happy for your legal defense but why would i need to be worried about legal affairs. I am breaking no laws, i am an airsoft skirmisher, i don't use my guns for any other purpose so again why would i want to pay more for a legal affair that will never come.

Plus you say UKARA is making money even though it is free to join but you are paying £30 a year for your legal defense, i just don't get your reasoning behind complaining about something that is free to join.  Again no one is forcing you to use it, you don't like it use something else but in most cases you will still need to play 3 games regardless.  Most of the other defenses to really come into play as they are really occupation related which won't affect your average weekend skirmisher.

You hold a reenactments defense which is cool but i'm sure to obtain that you had to prove you were actively doing reenactments, the principle is exactly the same as UKARA but actually your paying more while complaining about paying more, do you see the irony.

 

[Andyraven]

Who is making extra money from UKARA, a software database.  I'm happy for your legal defense but why would i need to be worried about legal affairs. I am breaking no laws, i am an airsoft skirmisher, i don't use my guns for any other purpose so again why would i want to pay more for a legal affair that will never come.

Plus you say UkARA is making money even though it is free to join but you are paying £30 a year for your legal defense, i just don't get your reasoning behind complaining about something that is free to join.  Again no one is forcing you to use it, you don't like it use something else but in most cases you will still need to play 3 games regardless.  Most of the other defenses to really come into play as they are really occupation related which won't affect your average weekend skirmisher.

Accidents happen i would rather be safe then sorry. And i use my Defence of other activities. Yea £30 a year but im getting more then just the right to buy a RIF in return.

i just feel there could be a better way then UKARA , A way to help the sport and not the retailers who sell the items.

 

[Tommikka]

Uhm yea it is aleast £150 for a UKARA number. You need to play aleast 3 games on a UKARA site before you can buy a none two-tone RiF. most sites charge £50 for hire and walk on is £25. that extra cash you would save could have gone onto a decent first RIF and your own gear.

and yes i have another form of defence But thats me. others who are getting into the sport need a defence to buy none two-tone RiFs and the easist one to get is a UKARA but i must say its one of the most expensive.

£150 spent on playing & renting

A technicality but it's not £150 for UKARA

A one off casual player would be paying £50 for nothing other than the experience 

 

[Tommikka]

Accidents happen i would rather be safe then sorry. And i use my Defence of other activities. Yea £30 a year but im getting more then just the right to buy a RIF in return.

i just feel there could be a better way then UKARA , A way to help the sport and not the retailers who sell the items.

There are other schemes than the UKARA

For your £30 per year - Are you incurring other expenses for taking part in recreations, (period clothing, subs to your society etc - is your £30 the overarching 'recreationists' membership, insurance etc, and did you sign up for your £30 when you started the first time you tried it?