G&G CM16 Raider Upgrade Advice Requested

[Billbo]

Hi guys. I'm not particularly new to Airsoft, but I am fairly new to owning my own AEG and completely new to upgrading internals.

I've got myself a G&G Combat Machine (CM16) Raider. After doing some reading on the net it seemed to be the best option based on performance vs cost and seemed like a reliable beginner/intermediate purchase.

So far I am quite impressed with it, but I am now looking to get myself a second, better quality M4 and upgrade my CM16 once that new, sexy beast arrives. Partly to make it a better back up, partly as a fun little project, partly so if I want to upgrade something better later on I have an idea what I am doing and I don't screw it up!

At last chrono my CM16 was running about 315 FPS with 0.20g BBs (although I use 0.25g on the field). I'd like to increase it's range, accuracy and shot consistency. I'm not too bothered about ROF as I don't really feel I need to be spewing rounds out like a mental just yet. I'd rather upgrade other characteristics first.

I do understand that FPS is not the be all and end all, but I'd also like to increase FPS with 0.20g BBs as close to 350 as I can (due to it being the limit on most UK sites).

So far the gun is completely stock (apart from a front grip and a one point sling) and I am using 8.4V 1600mAh batteries in case that matters.

I've done a fair bit of research online into upgrades, watched quite a few hours of YouTube videos and read the pinned newb guides on here (which are very useful btw thanks), but as I am sure you are aware there are a lot of differing opinions and options on what to do, so I'd like to get some advice please. I'm not looking to spend ridiculous amounts on it, but conversely I don't throwing a bit of cash at it, if it's worth it.

As far as I understand it (and please do correct me if I am wrong) the first (best?) things I need to do are:

1) Shim the gear box. Is it worth it to replace the gear bushings with steel bearings whilst I am in there?

2) Optimise AOE by either padding the cylinder head or by shiming between the piston head and piston body (I may skip this point until later on).

3) Replace the barrel. The 6.03mm MadBull ones seem to get mentioned quite a lot.

4) Replace the hop up unit. Prometheus (£30ish) and G&P seems to pop up quite a lot in recommendations? Do I need to swap out the hop up rubber and bucking whilst I am in there as well?

5) Depending on how FPS is then running, if necessary upgrade the spring to get a close to 350 FPS as possible.

Incidentally, the new gun I am looking at as my main is the Krytac Trident Mk2 CRB. I understand this to be a significant upgrade. Thoughts on this?

My thanks in advance for any advice or recommendations any of you may have for me.

Cheers guys!

 

[BrightCandle]

The hop unit in the G&G Combat machines I found to be quite capable, and indeed the green bucking is also highly sought after so actually you may find the next logical step is actually more like a flat hop or R hop using what you have.

Then to improve the shot to shot consistency you'll want airseal, that would be a nozzle with an o ring, seal up the existing cylinder head or get a new one with double sealing o rings and a new piston head and piston (as they are glued together).

Then powering it all a better spring of the M110 variety but lookup spring charts.

The inner barrel on the CM is pretty bad finish and brass so that is usually worth replacing and PDI and Prometheus is where I would look as they make about the best barrels about (PDI being $$$ and Prometheus being worse but cheaper).

Since you aren't changing the power of the gun much you likely don't need to mess with the bearings and the gears and such, you can by all means shim it better and correct AOE if you want to for extra life but at 350 fps its not going to instant rip itself apart.

 

[Sitting Duck]

Krytac would be an awesome step up - so it should be for the price but you see where your money went

G&G Raider Vs Krytac is like learning to drive & your first Ford Fiesta & then move onto a BMW so to speak

Main G&G advice gearbox wise wait until it drops sub 300fps or until it goes pear shape

Gearbox isn't bad for a starter gun - the only real let down is the motor - very lame but you can run higher juice to add some zest

Madbull - ergh no, zci on a budget is maybe a better option but ensure you have your present hop all set nice & dialed in

Too many rush out and think they have to upgrade this n that asap but often they haven't spent a bit of time tweaking their stock hop as best as possible

There are the prowin type hops, they are easier to strip & swap stuff about than the usual M4 hop - damn it where did that tiny circlip fly off to ?

But some have had a few teething troubles with prowin's in some guns, there are cheaper prowin clones by Element, SHS etc...

in fact shs do both plastic & metal prowin/g36 type hops

you are best imho - keeping your stock hop intact, build up a new hop/barrel/bucking etc....

that way if you run into any issues you have ol' faithful to fall back on with its good green bucking

If/When you get a Krytac you will almost certainly be using the Raider as a rare fall back or spare if a m8 tags along

Depending on your budget and wish to perform most of the work yourself to obtain experience....

I'd see how you go on the Raider - good gun but I'd suggest only replace parts as n when it is needed if you have splashed out on a Krytac

I'd be glad to elaborate more but feel the main area is maybe the barrel/hop/bucking options AFTER you have spent time getting the stock one set as best as you can - if still not happy then go for a new barrel/hop etc....

hope some of this helps

 

[Billbo]

Thanks a lot for the advice guys!

I think initially I will change the barrel over and flat hop the bucking. I'll take both your advice on the gearbox and I'll leave that alone until it goes Pete Tong.

Out of interest, what makes the G&G green bucking so good? I can find lots of people praising it, but I can't find out why specifically.

 

[Sitting Duck]

Out of interest, what makes the G&G green bucking so good? I can find lots of people praising it, but I can't find out why specifically.

Think it is to do with the material & hardness.

Softer is better in cold weather and fine for lifting 0.20's 0.25's on 300-350fps guns

Harder bucking is more for lifting heavier bb's & higher fps guns eg: dmr/snipers

(soft bucking - the lips can start to blow out on 400fps & over they say)

Something about 60 to 70 hardness, 75 if lifting heavier bb's

Maple Leaf, Prometheus are respected buckings too

Think it is to do with G&G Green being a good all rounder getting both material & shore about right for most people

but it isn't quite as straight forward as slapping it all together - but careful close attention when assembling like most stuff

and to attain best results out of anything often requires a considerable amount of care/effort to squeeze every last drop of power & accuracy out of each individual gun. Don't take much to lose that efficiency - crap bb's dirty barrel, torn bucking, ineffective hop, air leak blah blah blah

 

[Billbo]

Interesting. Thanks again for the advice.

 

[Albiscuit]

I am kind of in the same boat.

My Raider has given up the ghost.. Last outing whilst sneaking up on snipers I heard a noise like me backing my car into a gravel drive with rusty metal tires.. The tech onsite said it was most likely the piston and around £40 with parts to fix but he couldnt do it then.

So I decided to get myself a Krytac too (yet to buy) and fiddle with the raider myself as a spare/project. So firstly I need to sort the piston out, whilst its open I plan on looking around and sorting out what I can and then a longer barrel with an extension to hopefully sort out range and accuracy a little.

 

[BrightCandle]

So I decided to get myself a Krytac too (yet to buy) and fiddle with the raider myself as a spare/project. So firstly I need to sort the piston out, whilst its open I plan on looking around and sorting out what I can and then a longer barrel with an extension to hopefully sort out range and accuracy a little.

You don't need a longer barrel, that isn't going to make any difference to accuracy, this isn't real steel. Accuracy is about the consistency of air seal and the smoothness and consistency of the hop. A better barrel with less imperfections will absolutely improve accuracy but its length is basically irrelevant.

 

[Albiscuit]

Fair play, I get what your saying and I did not really make it clear, I do want better accuracy but I will throw a longer barrel in anyway as I have the CQB but should have got the longer version.

I want to tinker and use it to learn about these things...

 

[Sitting Duck]

if you got a long raider 357mm barrel and wish to put in a longer barrel say 455mm

then you will need to change ported cylinder to a full cylinder but as stated it won't guarantee accuracy

it is a GOOD barrel - NOT A LONG barrel, good hop unit and mostly down to bucking & nub set correctly

a LOT is down to to the bucking/nub providing the backspin/magnus that keeps the bb in flight and setup to stay on course

yes you can have a titchy nub and apply more pressure to give hop but you lose power

compared to a longer/quality shaped nub on a good grippy bucking that applies more spin but needs less pressure etc.......

If your gun has dropped in fps then it is most likely the seals and possible spring fading

I think the G&G piston head is $hit tbh and piston isn't great either - so consider improving those, new m100 spring, correct AoE etc...

maybe new nozzle with o-ring and check anything else for wear

the cylinder head is fine tbh - just correct AoE, you could add bearing spring guide to get your fps up a smidge

(you lose 10-15fps when correcting AoE & spring guide gets this back to where it was)

There are other options but tbh - where do you start/stop as no matter how nutz you go it will still be a G&G

if you get a Krytac then yup have a go at overhauling your G&G - but only if she needs it and certainly after you got your Krytac

Then you can afford to have a go yourself - but too many myself included made a right abortion on my first gun I opened

yes you can be lucky if you do sensible stuff first like read up, watch vids/tutorials and take pics as you dismantle the gearbox

"How hard can it be....."

"F*CK - WTF was that thing that just shot across the room....."

OK - not as bad as that if you take time to research and be better prepared than just steaming in like moi

but I'd rather give you a gloomy picture than one that is a summer breeze with unicorns etc...

Just coz you box is 99.999% perfect sealing - means jack $hit if then find out your leak was from the hop unit or a torn/worn bucking

suffice to say - think first before you just steam in

trust me I'm still learning from my many mistakes of just assuming this n that

but deffo you shouldn't need a longer barrel - just a decent clean barrel/hop/bucking that works properly is where it matters most

if you have the Shorter Raider 233mm then maybe look at a 250mm to 275mm zci inner if you really must upgrade barrel

any more you will likely need to change cylinder - you might get away with 300mm at a push, but really don't go nutz on length

you can use a suppresor or something or a 2" barrel extension - but a 250mm will be absolutely fine as is

tbh if you are getting a krytac then you can keep this a spare compact M4 and just do stuff you really need to

No offense but if you had a Ford Focus then bought a BMW - how many times would prefer to take the Focus out ?

 

[jcheeseright]

I am kind of in the same boat.

My Raider has given up the ghost.. Last outing whilst sneaking up on snipers I heard a noise like me backing my car into a gravel drive with rusty metal tires.. The tech onsite said it was most likely the piston and around £40 with parts to fix but he couldnt do it then.

So I decided to get myself a Krytac too (yet to buy) and fiddle with the raider myself as a spare/project. So firstly I need to sort the piston out, whilst its open I plan on looking around and sorting out what I can and then a longer barrel with an extension to hopefully sort out range and accuracy a little.

£40 to replace a piston?! I'm in the wrong business.

 

[Sitting Duck]

£40 to replace a piston?! I'm in the wrong business.

if it was an old beaten up Ford Focus of a gun that would be getting near a write off on the insurance claim

(bit harsh I know from me being a G&G fanboy/hater but there is some truth in it keeping these toy guns maintained)

It probably is about that really when you break it all down.......

£40 with parts and that probably means £10 for a piston - though they probably only paid £5 or £6 for a decent SHS one

and they may then slap in the £5 "miscellaneous" or "sundries" stuff as well - this $hit costs bundles you know......

plus clean & degrease, regrease - even though they just put a dab of fresh grease in there.....

slap it all back together - still sounds $hit but it has new parts inside so it is better $hit so to speak

And it is guaranteed (until you are out the door)

£25 labour blah blah blah.....

Soz a bad example, I know there are some very good techs out there but quite a number of John Wayne Techs too from some have posted

(alas - that is how it goes, normally people post about the crap bodge jobs and very few praise the good ones)

A good bit of work will be down to decent parts and taking a bit of TIME - which isn't free or very cheap

If you can, by all means have a go - replacing a spring or piston isn't hard at all if you take your time and disturb little in the process

1 or 2 bits to replace - yeah should be fine not likely to encounter any big or real issues....

a rebuild is a bit more "fun" as you soon see a lot of new bits do not always function perfectly or 101% TM compatible.....

This has to be one of my favourites:

 

[jcheeseright]

My point was more that I can get a piston realistically for about £10 shipped and fit it in 30 minutes... which puts the hourly rate for labour at £60! I don't get anything like £60 an hour for what I actually do.

 

[Sitting Duck]

me neither but I'd be inclined to think it would be more like 45 mins at least to finish it up plus reassemble & test

and tbh I'd lose the piston head in there too, I'd be inclined to clean & at least partially correct AoE hopefully to reduce risk of it going again in near future

G&G's stock piston has the 2nd tooth removed, you could get away with putting another piston or may have to remove 2nd tooth and a whisker of 3rd if correcting AoE on another piston with full complete rack of teeth - though you would try to aim on buying a piston that didn't need all this I guess

30 mins to change a spring, but still reckon 45mins if clean up bits of old shredded piston, refit piston head check seal/new o-ring

(though have said G&G's head isn't that great)

if it takes hour or more you have run into problems or lost a part

As I said where do you start/stop, once it is open you could just slap it back together or start checking other bits

is it really worth spending too much time/money if the gun becomes a spare - no not really

but a quick once over wouldn't hurt.....

A shredded piston though is either down to bad luck/parts or pushing gun on too higher juice

did owner run with 11.1v or faster motor - if so how are the contacts

but a lame stock G&G motor should not really PE on 11.1v - be lucky if that goes past 20rps the std motor is that crap

But could of had a jam - quite likely and thought the usual hold trigger to clear the bastid..... oooh $hit that don't sound good.....

yeah kind of inclined to think part failure from a bad jam/user error in clearing could of caused this piston to strip

(unless they fitted a whippy motor and piled on the juice like most idiots like moi have done)

hey look this is all guesswork - yup it is a lot and suppose if it was repaired quickly yes £40 does sound a bit steep I'll agree

if a good reliable tech does it and it works for a good while then it could still be worth it

a G&G, it is f*cked anyway so what have you got to lose - just make sure you got a spare gun or krytac or something

it could be a walk in the park - should be if you approach it all correctly

 

[BrightCandle]

I always say that if you are working on your own guns you need a chronograph, you catch a lot of issues test firing and measuring the BB velocity and its variances. But it should be mentioned I ensure my dremel is charged before starting an upgrade project, it gets used more often than I would like to admit for making parts "compatible".

 

[Sitting Duck]

Oh yes, I have 2 dlemel's both mains

(cheap Chinese dremel)

One has the flexible shaft dlemel which is the nutz for making careful intricate "adjustments"

Suffice to say I highly recommend if buying a dlemel or dremel see about getting the nifty flexi attachments

If you are a real tight bastid like moi and use crappy cheap cutting discs that break easily - double up the cheapo cutting discs. Only time now they break if I have dropped/bashed the dlemel carelessly.

Half decent set of files or at least a good set of smaller craft files, sand/emery paper and you should be set quite well for any compatibility issues

 

[Albiscuit]

Some great points Ducky, but yes I want to tinker with the Focus as I am a curious sod. It will be a last ditch back up as I have another gun to use if the Krytac ever goes wonky on me but I figured I might as well have a go at replacing what I can over a period of time to satisfy my inner gnomish tinkerer and to learn about all these things you rather more adept people talk about on here which goes over my head.

I had no idea a piston would be so cheap, I must admit I still haven't looked at what I actually need to replace. I have got as far as taking the outer off and know how to open up the inner at the mo (work n life have been busy). I probably would have just paid the £40 but as I am upgrading anyway I figure I might as well learn cos if I do muck it all up I can just chuck it at a tech and get it put back together properly at some point cos I wont be using it for the foreseeable future anyhow :lol:

 

[Sacarathe]

Some great points Ducky,

Haaa haaaahahahah!

 

[Albiscuit]

Haaa haaaahahahah!

I DID have to read it a few times to find them though

 

[Roundel91]

Watching this thread with alot of interest.

Ive had my 2nd hand CM raider CQB for a couple of weeks now but rather than upgrading the hell out of it i want to focus on longevity and reliability.

Im looking around for brand new G&G parts to keep me goIng should the original components let go anytime soon but don't have the foggiest of where to find straight swap replacements.

I also figure it will also enable me to pull apart and tinker, have a go at pulling apart a gearbox and shimming etc.

Last time i used it chrono'd at 290-300fps. Not sure if thats fairly standard for a bog standard one? I'd like to see 350 out of it if it wont break the bank.