Which retailers in the UK accept Just-Cos Cosplayer Insurance?

[Rogerborg]

I seem to recall that fairly shortly post VCRA one of the retailers hot caught out by their "frequently bought together" section containing 2tone gnus and black Krylon.

Cool story, but I don't see an offence there.  It's a long stretch to show intent beyond a reasonable doubt, and it's not like rapscallions can't figure out that they can apply some best Poundland spray paint to their day-glos, for fair purposes or foul.

I very much doubt there's any policing of RIFs now, at least within the UK's borders. There are retailers openly flaunting the VCRA with joke non-defences like JustCos, or techs posting videos documenting that they're building Section 5 firearms. Nobody is bothered... until some cause célèbre will inevitably result in the State getting very bothered.

 

[ak2m4]

@superwok I know you got it sorted via the just-cos route, however did you not try to ask any retailers if any other forms of defence were acceptable?  You've got 110 posts on this forum, have been a member for 5 years, visit regular and have 100% feedback, that should be enough to confirm.

As @Dan Robinson also states, social media posts / photos also another good.

The IT ex-colleague of mine who's still looking at a defense system (has a fair bit of it built) was thinking about putting in supporting material for defence, how it will work in the system I don't know but seems a legit idea.

 

[Tackle]

If your a criminal reading this thread & are thinking about turning an IF in to a RIF, look at the pretty light ?

View attachment 125211

 

[Dan Robinson]

@superwok I know you got it sorted via the just-cos route, however did you not try to ask any retailers if any other forms of defence were acceptable?  You've got 110 posts on this forum, have been a member for 5 years, visit regular and have 100% feedback, that should be enough to confirm.

As @Dan Robinson also states, social media posts / photos also another good.

The IT ex-colleague of mine who's still looking at a defense system (has a fair bit of it built) was thinking about putting in supporting material for defence, how it will work in the system I don't know but seems a legit idea.

I did/do think the current situation isn't great for those I described above,  or those who like to go do several different sites .... so no one site would meet the requirements.   A system that stores a profile/ portfolio of verifiable activity,  such as pictures direct from registered sites, payment receipts,  registered address etc.  Would be helpful. 

I guess the issues come down to hassle-risk-reward for the operator. 

 

[GiantKiwi]

I did/do think the current situation isn't great for those I described above,  or those who like to go do several different sites .... so no one site would meet the requirements.   A system that stores a profile/ portfolio of verifiable activity,  such as pictures direct from registered sites, payment receipts,  registered address etc.  Would be helpful. 

I guess the issues come down to hassle-risk-reward for the operator. 

GDPR requirements are going to shit all over any ability to run this without significant money involved - UKARA are already pushing their luck at the best of times.

 

[Tommikka]

GDPR requirements are going to shit all over any ability to run this without significant money involved - UKARA are already pushing their luck at the best of times.

Why?

Define significant money?  A secure system, hosting and handling processes are required.  That costs money.  But why ‘significant’?

GDPR does not prevent the sharing of personal information - in fact, as any system designed to form a VCRA defence would require some form of sharing to function then it would be a GDPR breech to not share information collected for the purposes of sharing the validation of a defence.

It does require the security of information collected and to only share the appropriate information in the appropriate manner

eg Collect suitable information to justify a defence, receive a query to validate a defence, share appropriate information back and forth with appropriate parties

Eg request for defence number 54321, Joe Bloggs, 1 the Avenue, New Town

Result confirmed

 

[Colin Allen]

I did/do think the current situation isn't great for those I described above,  or those who like to go do several different sites .... so no one site would meet the requirements.   A system that stores a profile/ portfolio of verifiable activity,  such as pictures direct from registered sites, payment receipts,  registered address etc.  Would be helpful. 

I guess the issues come down to hassle-risk-reward for the operator. 

It really isn't a problem for those of us who play at several different sites.  The requirement of playing three times in more than 56 days at a single site is not hard to achieve.  I play across a core of four sites with more occasional visits to other sites, with my UKARA being anchored at one of the core sites.  When it needs renewing I do it through them as they have a record of my attendance over the previous 12 months; provided that their system shows three or more visits, all is good.

 

[Rogerborg]

my UKARA being anchored at one of the core sites

UKARA records site membership, there's no reason to just have a single one. I've had three on the go at once.

 

[Colin Allen]

UKARA records site membership, there's no reason to just have a single one. I've had three on the go at once.

Very true!  I have contemplated doing that.

 

[ak2m4]

GDPR requirements are going to shit all over any ability to run this without significant money involved - UKARA are already pushing their luck at the best of times.

@GiantKiwi why do you think that exactly?  how much are you thinking and what area?  I'd say yearly pen test / audits would be a nice bonus but "significant" I'm not so sure

 

[Fatboy40]

UKARA records site membership, there's no reason to just have a single one. I've had three on the go at once.

Exactly, and in the context of this many players using HPA will have multiple site memberships as being a "member" is often a requirement to be able to use the sites own compressors or dive tanks for refills.

@GiantKiwi why do you think that exactly?  how much are you thinking and what area?  I'd say yearly pen test / audits would be a nice bonus but "significant" I'm not so sure

I'm leaning more towards GiantKiwi's point of view here.

UKARA just has I believe three points of data (potentially four), the players name / site  / their UKARA number. If we follow the proposed...

# A system that stores a profile/ portfolio of verifiable activity,  such as pictures direct from registered sites, payment receipts,  registered address etc.

... we're into the realm of substantial data on an individual that will uniquely identify them and can be used as a method of conducting fraud / targeted phishing etc.

This leads onto knowledge of what the UK's Information Commissioners Office requires, nominated data controllers, associated legal liabilities etc. and this has overheads that will cost so need to be funded in some way. I just think that we're lucky that UKARA exists and all it costs is around a £25 cost to be a member of a site we play at anyhow (and the site gets a little more money so that it can turn a profit and still be available to us).

 

[woody_2231]

This thread is getting heated but I'ill try to remain neutral.

Like the others said, just-cos is very dodgy and non-universal. Fire-support and airsoft world are the only ones that states they accept just-cos. I have never used just-cos because VCRA doesn't count cosplay as rennactor. 

The expense of playing three games as a beginner is absurdly high, it's huge turn off for people without some sort of income. I understand airsoft isn't cheap in general but the price for playing in sites have some room for improvement. Also, UKARA only last for 12 months, 2 of those months is spent waiting to be approved. If ukara lasts for 2-3 years then the expense would be justifiable, but reality is that it isn't. 

If the expense is too unbearable or u felt that u won't play enough games to get ukara, there are less dodgy methods to get RIFs than Just-cos. 

Military vehicles trust is a bit more universal and is accepted as a rennactor defence. It's the defence I personally use. It worked on:

-Patrol base

-Fire support 

-airsoft world 

-Fubar bundy airsoft

-Others

 

[Fatboy40]

Military vehicles trust is a bit more universal and is accepted as a rennactor defence. It's the defence I personally use.

Very interesting as I think my younger brother has this as he has a D-Day used Willy's jeep and a Dodge truck.

So this covers you for all RIF's and not just those that mimic weapons from a specific conflict / period in time?

 

[Lozart]

So this covers you for all RIF's and not just those that mimic weapons from a specific conflict / period in time?

I very much doubt that a retailer that would accept that as a defence will actually be bothering to check if you're buying an SMLE or a DD MK18!

 

[woody_2231]

Very interesting as I think my younger brother has this as he has a D-Day used Willy's jeep and a Dodge truck.

So this covers you for all RIF's and not just those that mimic weapons from a specific conflict / period in time?

I bought an AA pit viper on patrol base , TM AKM GBB on airsoft world, WE desert eagle on fubar bundy and a E&C glock on fire support using the defence and they all accepted it. So I say it does cover RIFs from all periods

 

[Rogerborg]

So I say it does cover RIFs from all periods

Or: it probably wouldn't, should it ever actually come to court, but:

1) It won't

2) It's the retailer's problem if it did.

 2.1) Which it won't.

 

[Pseudotectonic]

RIF under VCRA actually has to look like a "modern firearm", "[...] “modern firearm” means any firearm other than one the appearance of which would tend to identify it as having a design and mechanism of a sort first dating from before the year 1870."

So if it looks like something that could have been plausibly produced after 1870 it would count as RIF (including sci-fi or video game or other fictional gun shaped objects that, basically, looks like a gun)

 

[Colin Allen]

The expense of playing three games as a beginner is absurd even with rentals. I understand airsoft isn't cheap in general but the price for playing in sites have some room for improvement. Also, UKARA only last for 12 months, 2 of those months is spent waiting to be approved. If it lasted for 2-3 years then the expense would be justifiable, but reality is that it isn't. 

What is absurd about the expense of playing three games as a beginner?  Do you mean that you think rental costs are too high?

Two months spent waiting to be approved?  Are you referring to the requirement to play three games in more than 56 days or did you have to wait that long for your UKARA number to be sent to you?  If the former, that is a requirement set by UKARA so that you can show that you are a dedicated player.  If the latter, such a wait is very unusual.

After the first year, assuming that you keep your UKARA registration at the same site, there is no extra expense involved as you qualify just by playing at the site.

 

[Tackle]

My take, these days Airsoft is only as expensive as you let it be, every bit of the highest quality kit has a budget equivalent, same for the guns (aeg's), obviously gas kits a bit different, but there's no reason someone can't be game ready for as little as £250, maybe less if you punt around the s/h classifieds. 

Same goes for green fees, a days fun for as little as £25 if you've got your own kit, very few other sporting pastimes compare to it, even renting a squash court for an hour is about £15.

Paying a bit more for rental kit to give you the ability to qualify for ukara is a relatively small price to pay if your planning to stick with it. 

 

[Galvatron]

The expense of playing three games as a beginner is absurd even with rentals. I understand airsoft isn't cheap in general but the price for playing in sites have some room for improvement. Also, UKARA only last for 12 months, 2 of those months is spent waiting to be approved. If it lasted for 2-3 years then the expense would be justifiable, but reality is that it isn't.

How do you qualify the expense being absurd? The sites aren't charities. Their overheads of BBs, maintenance for the rental guns, their eventual replenishment and the labour costs of inspecting and stocktaking have to be taken into consideration along with a profit margin. It's really easy to belittle operating costs when you deviate from "try(ing) to remain neutral" and show an agenda against the current system.

Let's not push a false narrative that 2 months of having a UKARA defence is waiting to be approved is the norm. I had a provisional UKARA number the day I became a member of the site I played at to apply for becoming registered with UKARA BUT my defence didn't become active until a couple of days after I was signed off after playing my third game in just over 2 months and the site, after which the owner sent off an email to UKARA confirming I had satisfied the requirements. That defence was active for 12 months from the day I received by email from UKARA, not from when I played my first game. The only expense I have to incur to renew my UKARA registration is to continue my membership at the site for another year - that is much less expensive than monthly gym memberships, a few packs of cigarettes or a week's worth of overpriced custom Starbucks coffees.

Imparting misinformation as fact is less than conducive to discourse in good faith, especially when you "try to remain neutral".