Opinions on UKAPU

[TacticalWaifu]

Yeah, no, it's a very silly hobby enjoyed by overgrown kids.  Even the "professionals" are generally just hobbyists trying to eke out a living at it.

I appreciate it's voluntary, but professionalism seemed the right word.

There's a certain level of competence and good judgement required (or at least expected) of committee members... and perma-silence is neither good judgement, nor even remotely polite behaviour ?

 

[typefish]

The cynical part of me suspects that this is a "the people that have been giving us money actually want us to do something" kinda meeting.

But then again 23yrs as an engineer have left me with an overwhelmingly cynical and pessimistic world view.

It would be timely if it was, however please be assured that it was purely coincidental. Standing down has been something that has been on my mind for the past year or so, I just never decided to actually do it up until about 4 weeks ago. I wish I had done it sooner, judging by some of the interesting comments in this thread!

Did the UKAPU meeting take place?  Are members going to be notified of the outcome at any point?

The minutes are for me to type up they'll be ready by tomorrow I think - never fun doing a committee meeting followed up by a day's skirmishing.

Anyhow an update will be provided by a member of the team in this very thread along with other media streams in due course (as in, very shortly!) - I can't say too much about that now as I'm no longer the chairman! ?

By his own admission (and words) "wholly unprofessional" in his response

No, the wholly unprofessional response reference was due to me highlighting the fact that the resignation was brought on with regards to personal health reasons, partly brought on by the whole airsoft thing shutting down thing during the pandemic. If you chose to interpret that in a different manner, then that is understandable.

This will be the last time I reply to this topic as personally I'm baffled as to why there's such discontent about what is strictly an internal meeting, discussing things that are internal and sensitive in nature. It is something that the committee is entitled to do, and in some instances, is required to do.

 

[Colin Allen]

This will be the last time I reply to this topic

Bye.

 

[Cannonfodder]

I'm baffled as to why there's such discontent about what is strictly an internal meeting, discussing things that are internal and sensitive in nature. It is something that the committee is entitled to do, and in some instances, is required to do.

There's a big difference between between holding a committee meeting and complete radio silence. The latter is a guaranteed way to get the rumour mill working overtime.

I appreciate it's voluntary, but professionalism seemed the right word.

I'd say it's the right word. Whether voluntary or a paid position if a person or organisation is going to claim to be official representatives of a group of people then they need to be extremely open and honest about what's going on go those they claim to represent.

 

[Colin Allen]

UKAPU seems to make a decent surplus; are they saving for a rainy day or building up funds in case there is an attempt to ban airsoft?

£18,412.55 as a Paypal Balance?????

An interesting set of questions for the AGM, when it eventually happens.

View attachment 110188

 

[Pseudotectonic]

This is my initial impression so if I got anything wrong feel free to correct me.

Being an unincorporated association means it cannot legally own anything, cannot make any formal contracts, does not even have its own legal entity, all the assets are held by some officer or trustee, and there is no limited liability and it can only be sued through the officers or members.

Looking at the "benefits" it is largely useless, it has no lobbying power to "preserve UK airsoft", its does not have any lawyer who can offer any better "legal help" than internet forums or some FAQ pages on their website, "member only games" is no different than any random game anyone can organise privately on facebook, the "regional representations" are largely vacant and not more useful than anyone on facebook, and the "discounts" is perpetually "in negotiations" which is basically false advertisement.

It is literally a facebook group larping as an charity and started asking for donation money, and getting away with it because it does not legally exist. Where does the money go? You get to fund their collective larping activities, and you get a patch for being associated with it. And, you get to take part in a raffle if you attend their AGM, which is going to be proportionately attended by more officers than members.

Granted they have saved £20k so far but hard to imagine what they can do with £20k, maybe funding private games? But surely it is going to benefit just a few people and not every member? What is the money doing in a paypal account? If it is not spending the money to promote airsoft and actually getting discounts for members, does it count as charity fraud? What is it even doing?

Does the future of airsoft need protection from a facebook group who can't afford their own PR?

 

[Rogerborg]

£18,412.55 as a Paypal Balance?????

Zoinks. I wouldn't keep £18 in PayPal, given their propensity for locking access to funds on the slightest pretence, or none.  I'd hope that was "just resting" there and has been moved somewhere safer.

I'd assume that's a fighting fund, although it would cover advice, legal nastygrams, or amicus curiae briefs, not taking a complex case through the courts.

There are no shenanigans going on. Membership is entirely consensual, the accounts are open, and nobody has to pay - it's clearly marked as a donation. I joined at the free tier to see how active UKAPU was, concluded that it wasn't[*], and so have never bothered donating.  I'd love to be given a reason to do so.

[*]Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but it's all we've got to go on.

 

[Colin Allen]

There are no shenanigans going on.

I agree; however, they seem to be sitting on a relatively large amount of money, most of it possibly still in a rather vulnerable PayPal account, that does not seem to be being used in any constructive way to benefit either airsoft or UKAPU members.

I cancelled my annual donation this morning, mainly because I have no idea what UKAPU does that benefits the hobby.

 

[Rogerborg]

they seem to be sitting on a relatively large amount of money

Might have invested it in sweets and caps and go-carts by now.  

does not seem to be being used in any constructive way to benefit either airsoft

Does airsoft need benefitting?  The obvious missing ingredient is recognition as a sport.  However, I'm not going to say "Why someone oughta!", since it would be peak hypocrisy to berate anyone else for not volunteering to do what I'm not volunteering to do.

or UKAPU members.

Patches, to lord it over the peasants.

I cancelled my annual donation this morning, mainly because I have no idea what UKAPU does that benefits the hobby.

It seems like a case of you don't need UKAPU until you really need UKAPU, so thanks for supporting it.

 

[Colin Allen]

It seems like a case of you don't need UKAPU until you really need UKAPU, so thanks for supporting it.

I am not sure why one would really need UKAPU.  Are there any known cases where their intervention has saved an airsofter from potential imprisonment or similar?  Have they ever influenced legislation or government policy?

 

[Pseudotectonic]

If any organisation wants to represent the whole of the UK airsoft skirmishing hobby it will have to do a much better job at it, if it wants to become the public facing portal for the sport it has to be very clear about what it considers to be the sport, what are the rulesets, and all the safety and legal requirements that goes into a skirmishing or any re-enactment milsim games.

Then it needs to offer something to the hobby as a whole benefiting the players, the retailers, the field owners, and the public. Whether it be promoting good code of conduct or lobbying to improve site standards, or publishing research or survey, or improving public image or knowledge of airsoft and so on. Its primary mission should be to actively promote and improve and regulate the sport, to make it more fun and enjoyable and more safe to play, and more recognised as a sport, and more profitable as an industry. Just passively waiting around responding to any rare cases of legal emergency is frankly not very productive.

If UKAPU wants to do something useful maybe they can spend the £20k in the research and development of a white paper defining airsoft as a sport in the UK and highlight its benefits, maybe make a basic beginner portal (find a UKARA site near you or something), and take steps to build up some sort of expected standards for UKARA sites to guide their development/reinvestment. That will give you the foundations of a full blown sport that can be improved upon and grow. Maybe periodic surveys to build up some sort of knowledge base to monitor the industry, which can be useful for defending the industry should the time comes.

Or maybe get registered as a real charity or something.

 

[Jacob Wright]

Good afternoon,

Just to provide an update following our meeting on Thursday evening - apologies for the delay.

A date for the AGM has been set, and once the press release has been finalised this will be circulated to all members and via social media.

The current chairperson has stepped down, and caretaker chairperson, vice chairperson, registrar and press officer have been elected. These positions will be re-elected at the AGM. 

The new vice chairperson would like to apologise to members for not being able to be a part of our management meeting, but we are looking forward to them attending our AGM.

At this time, I have taken over the role of press officer. I look forward to being able to share more regular updates with our members and the wider Airsoft community going forward.

As always, please feel free to contact me should you have any questions.

 

[Colin Allen]

Good afternoon,

Just to provide an update following our meeting on Thursday evening - apologies for the delay.

A date for the AGM has been set, and once the press release has been finalised this will be circulated to all members and via social media.

The current chairperson has stepped down, and caretaker chairperson, vice chairperson, registrar and press officer have been elected. These positions will be re-elected at the AGM. 

The new vice chairperson would like to apologise to members for not being able to be a part of our management meeting, but we are looking forward to them attending our AGM.

At this time, I have taken over the role of press officer. I look forward to being able to share more regular updates with our members and the wider Airsoft community going forward.

As always, please feel free to contact me should you have any questions.

Thank you for the update.  That is all very nice, but what is UKAPU for?  What is its purpose?  What does it do to represent or promote UK airsoft?  Does it still have in excess of £18k sitting in a PayPal account?  When will the minutes of the 2022 AGM and the associated accounts be published?

 

[Rogerborg]

Are there any known cases where their intervention has saved an airsofter from potential imprisonment or similar?

We've seen claims that they've helped importers who have fallen foul of the fickle finger of fate.

Of course, without documentation of the cases - which would help people in the same situation in future - we can only take that on faith.

 

[Speedbird_666]

Thank you for the update.  That is all very nice, but what is UKAPU for?  What is its purpose?  What does it do to represent or promote UK airsoft?  Does it still have in excess of £18k sitting in a PayPal account?  When will the minutes of the 2022 AGM and the associated accounts be published?

Perhaps you could ask this newly-registered member...

View attachment 110234

@UKAPU Press Office Do you represent UKAPU - or just using the name to take the piss?

 

[Guest]

Perhaps you could ask this newly-registered member...

View attachment 110234

@UKAPU Press Office Do you represent UKAPU - or just using the name to take the piss?

It’s a trap!

 

[BigStew]

UKAPU does need to step up to justify it's existence, but to all those people complaining that they have all that money in savings, for a nation wide representative body 20k is nothing. To actually be effective they should have reserve fund multiple times that. If they were to actually have to fight a legal case or fund a white paper that money could be spent in a matter weeks, hell cost of lawyers could burn through that in days.   

 

[TacticalWaifu]

I'll put my hand up and admit I was the one that brought the finances to @Colin Allen's attention.

The complaint isn't necessarily at the money is in "savings" (which it doesn't actually appear to to be) -- more the fact that the vast majority is sitting as a PayPal balance (which PayPal could freeze and effectively confiscate indefinitely at any time, for more or less any reason, as they are wont do to, especially if they took a look and decided there was even the remotest possibility it was firearms-related... Additionally, PayPal accounts are much more insecure than regular bank accounts, and cash in PayPal accounts aren't protected by the Financial Services Compensation Scheme -- so if something happened to PayPal (or even just their UK operations), those monies wouldn't be protected / recoverable.

That aside, your "it's "nothing" for a "nationwide representative body" is disingenuous -- for that to apply, UKAPU would have to actively be representing their stated aims and interests, at a nationwide level -- and between their blatant lack of communication, significant number of vacant posts, and nobody else claiming the've had any dealings with UKAPU (which would at least provide some evidence in the face of UKAPU's silence about such matters), there is no proof they have been doing anything of note for the airsoft community recently, much less at a "nationwide" level.

You're saying one hell of a big "if" for an association whose primary membership is FOC. How you expect that they should have "[a] reserve fund multiple times that" I don't know, they certainly don't have the membership or income stream to warrant such things -- nor do they offer or claim to "fight legal cases" or fund "white papers" or anything else.

They don't need a huge slush fund to be effective, Stew -- they need a committee of members that (a) actively do things, and (b) actually communicate with members and the outside world - and as stated, between social media posts being 3 years out of date and there basically having been total radio silence for members (never mind anyone else) for over a year, and failure to provide any minutes or accounts or a 2022 AGM or anything remotely like that, it would seem apparent that they aren't effective at simply maintaining a members organisation, never mind actively promoting or fighting for any cause.

Context matters. Failed comparisons and hypothetical what-ifs, not so much.

 

[BigStew]

I'll put my hand up and admit I was the one that brought the finances to @Colin Allen's attention.

The complaint isn't necessarily at the money is in "savings" (which it doesn't actually appear to to be) -- more the fact that the vast majority is sitting as a PayPal balance (which PayPal could freeze and effectively confiscate indefinitely at any time, for more or less any reason, as they are wont do to, especially if they took a look and decided there was even the remotest possibility it was firearms-related... Additionally, PayPal accounts are much more insecure than regular bank accounts, and cash in PayPal accounts aren't protected by the Financial Services Compensation Scheme -- so if something happened to PayPal (or even just their UK operations), those monies wouldn't be protected / recoverable.

That aside, your "it's "nothing" for a "nationwide representative body" is disingenuous -- for that to apply, UKAPU would have to actively be representing their stated aims and interests, at a nationwide level -- and between their blatant lack of communication, significant number of vacant posts, and nobody else claiming the've had any dealings with UKAPU (which would at least provide some evidence in the face of UKAPU's silence about such matters), there is no proof they have been doing anything of note for the airsoft community recently, much less at a "nationwide" level.

You're saying one hell of a big "if" for an association whose primary membership is FOC. How you expect that they should have "[a] reserve fund multiple times that" I don't know, they certainly don't have the membership or income stream to warrant such things -- nor do they offer or claim to "fight legal cases" or fund "white papers" or anything else.

They don't need a huge slush fund to be effective, Stew -- they need a committee of members that (a) actively do things, and (b) actually communicate with members and the outside world - and as stated, between social media posts being 3 years out of date and there basically having been total radio silence for members (never mind anyone else) for over a year, and failure to provide any minutes or accounts or a 2022 AGM or anything remotely like that, it would seem apparent that they aren't effective at simply maintaining a members organisation, never mind actively promoting or fighting for any cause.

Context matters. Failed comparisons and hypothetical what-ifs, not so much.

You have much more effectively said what should be happening than my "step up". They have utterly failed to justify their existence and i agree that no money should be sitting  in a PayPal account. I did not bring up the white paper i was just responding to that and yes they don't fight cases (again don't seem to do anything) but a functioning players association should be doing that and to do that or even operating/maintain a members date/base web sit could eat significant funds.

I will stand by my assertion that cash reserves of  20k is nothing and not disingenuous, yes I am dealing in what ifs  as if they were actually functioning that money could be spent very quickly on legitimate expanses. 

 

[Pseudotectonic]

I agree 20k is a small amount. I also agree they don't much money to be effective. I think maybe if they open up and allow more volunteers to contribute rather than playing musical chairs of imaginary positions, they might be able to get things started at least without much spending.

A white paper can start with a well written summary of the status quo, which obviously involves some research and speaking to various groups of people (field owners and a good sample of players perhaps), but if any volunteers who wants to play airsoft committee in spare time as a hobby perhaps it doesn't need to spend much money.

You know what, anyone here wants to start a new club?