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Acceptable rates of fire

And that's the problem 99% of non hit taking is the shooter not hitting the target. So the problem is the player with super duper gun that can shoot laser straight and hit a 2 inch target at 100m can't judge distance for shit. So when they get frustrated at the non hit taker and move position to actually be in range and then then light up the player "who didn't take their hits" becomes they become the arse hole ruining people's days. As Marshall I pull up far more people for shouting take your hit than actual non hit taking. 
Yep, can relate to that. I'm a relative newcomer to Airsoft having played for about 9 months now, at first there were times I was convinced I'd sprayed someone and they hadn't called it... however, it's plastic bits moving pretty slowly so actually quite easy to dodge Matrix-style. Watching through a sight i could then see my missing of the target that I was convinced I'd aced.

Either way I dont get too worked up if someone's not calling hits. Its all just a bit if fun at the end of the day and don't feel the need to get worked up about it. Just shoot them more, eventually they will call it...

 
Ammo limits are the way, imho, on account of the fact you can literally use any type of RIF under the sun with any mechanism for propulsion but if you run out of beebs half way through the game and aren't allowed to re-stock you're going to watch your weight of trigger finger.

Is this easily enforceable?  Absolutely not, same as any other methods suggested, there's plenty of arguments against it.  There's no way you're going to have marshalls checking every pouch and pocket for sneaky hidden mags and bags of bbs.  However it's a rule I'd think most people would follow and a lot of the time it wouldn't be too hard to spot offenders.  Also it just generally adds to the quality of the gameplay in general in all key respects I find, but I have no delusions that that is subjective and some won't agree with me.

Just and idea I've held for a long time and like to put out there now and again.


it's an idea i like, as you say problematic to enforce, but good in principle for changing up the game dynamic of a regular skirmish without necessarily screwing anyone over for not having things like low caps etc.

problem is, like most things in this sport, it's not the ones who are playing fairly and following the in-place rules that are the problem, so adding more rules won't necessarily fix it.

And that's the problem 99% of non hit taking is the shooter not hitting the target. So the problem is the player with super duper gun that can shoot laser straight and hit a 2 inch target at 100m can't judge distance for shit. So when they get frustrated at the non hit taker and move position to actually be in range and then then light up the player "who didn't take their hits" becomes they become the arse hole ruining people's days. As Marshall I pull up far more people for shouting take your hit than actual non hit taking. 


this is true, and a trap we've all fallen foul of at some point, even if you're usually an ok judge of things unless you actually see the rounds land then it always remains a possibility.

although that doesn't mean non-hit calling isn't a thing, it absolutely is ranging from legitimate no-feels (something no player is immune to, no matter how honest) to tunnel vision to just straight up plot armour.

 
it's an idea i like, as you say problematic to enforce, but good in principle for changing up the game dynamic of a regular skirmish without necessarily screwing anyone over for not having things like low caps etc.

problem is, like most things in this sport, it's not the ones who are playing fairly and following the in-place rules that are the problem, so adding more rules won't necessarily fix it.

this is true, and a trap we've all fallen foul of at some point, even if you're usually an ok judge of things unless you actually see the rounds land then it always remains a possibility.

although that doesn't mean non-hit calling isn't a thing, it absolutely is ranging from legitimate no-feels (something no player is immune to, no matter how honest) to tunnel vision to just straight up plot armour.

Oh it most certainly is. I have given payers the benefit of the doubt told them they were hit and to respawn, I have made player remove plate carriers, I have put players out of a game after failing a test shot. But the major thing is perceived non hit taking is significantly more common than non hitting and people falsely calling non hit taking can ruin a games atmosphere more than a non hit taker. As soon as a player Call take your hit you hear players grumbling and suddenly every shot is landing on a non hit taker. You are faced with people deciding if they aren't taking their hits why should we?
 
Since we're well off topic now, I heard a player-marshal grumbling after a game that he'd "hit someone, and the cheeky cnut had put his hand up, then ducked back into cover."

I kindly let him know that the cheeky cnut was in fact waving cheerily at him because his BBs were dropping about 3m short.

Perhaps ill advised, but he was already convinced that he was hitting me and would have been salty anyway, so I might as well have fun with it. ;)  

 
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Since we're well off topic now, I heard a player-marshal grumbling after a game that he'd "hit someone, and the cheeky cnut had put his hand up, then ducked back into cover."

I kindly let him know that the cheeky cnut was in fact waving cheerily at him because his BBs were dropping about 3m short.

Perhaps ill advised, but he was already convinced that he was hitting me and would have been salty about, so I might as well have fun with it. ;)  
I've done that but then shot back with my r hopped AEG shooting heavier ammo and nailed them. They weren't happy... 

I like the limited ammo idea. Maybe if you could issue a set amount of ammo when you sign in and that's your lot for the day. Obviously doesn't stop people sneaking their own ammo in but I think if everyone is being conservative then the one person spraying everything would probably stand out. Then you could also provide more ammo for support gunners so that you can then control the number of support gunners on each team. 

 
as long as support gunners are defined as actual heavy guns rather than a paper m249 or ar derivative with a box mag.
I suppose you'd have to apply to be a support gunner so you'd take your gun up to the desk or maybe the ammo would get issued and roles assigned at the chrono and they'd decide if you qualify. This is all getting very milsim esque for a regular skirmish day though

 
I suppose you'd have to apply to be a support gunner so you'd take your gun up to the desk or maybe the ammo would get issued and roles assigned at the chrono and they'd decide if you qualify. This is all getting very milsim esque for a regular skirmish day though


i'm thinking more that folk will inevitably try to break the spirit of limited ammo by fitting a box mag, rock up at chrono "yeah i'm a support gunner" then proceeding to spend the rest of the day as-normal.

and by paper 249 i mean specifically the polymer ones that are so light they double in weight when you fill them up with ammo.

 
i'm thinking more that folk will inevitably try to break the spirit of limited ammo by fitting a box mag, rock up at chrono "yeah i'm a support gunner" then proceeding to spend the rest of the day as-normal.

and by paper 249 i mean specifically the polymer ones that are so light they double in weight when you fill them up with ammo.
Thats why I said about applying but I realise I never actually said exactly what I meant. The marshals could decide which guns need to be designated as support guns and what could just be used as regular AEGs. 

 
Maybe if you could issue a set amount of ammo when you sign in and that's your lot for the day.


What happens to the "suppressing fiiiiiiire" types who run dry in the first hour?

Game by game / scenario by scenario, yes, I've seen that work well at a filmsim.  But the reality is that it requires buy-in and trust from all the players.  You can't in practice stop people from trousering a high-cap or six if they want to.

The same applies to muzzle energy, mind.

 
Dragon Valley run all their games limited ammo (or did last time I played there) only allowed to carry 600rds on you but you can go back to safezone to bomb up . Support guns 2000rds BUT it’s only classified as a support gun if there is a real world equivalent, so no claiming “this is my support gun !” As you stand there with your M4 pistol and a drum mag ! ?‍♂️

 
I'd love ammo limits, but you won't get them for the mostpart in casual skirmish weekends. I typically only run about 150 BBs in my VSR or 350 BBs in my m21, plus 125 BBs in a pistol or 250 BBs in the mp7, depending on what I'm carrying, so my maximum loadout of BBs at any one time is going to be 600 BBs (m21 + mp7 combination). Once I get my standard rifleman setup done, that will only be carrying about 175 BBs because GBBR magazines are small, so ammo limits never affect me since it's my normal way of playing.

However, as I said, you won't get them in skirmish games, as skirmish is supposed to be accessible to everyone. This includes both the speedy 14 year old with his m4 pistol and drum mag and the super-serious-milsim-tacticool-oper8r with his gucci gear and NGRS and real cap magazines.

 
Tbh, I think in the game of airsoft which is literally 100% based on honest hit calling by players on themselves, saying that something in terms of a rule is a fruitless endeavour is a pretty bad logical fallacy.  Everything aspect of every action that every player takes on the field is constrained by (first) governmental laws then there's a thick layer of rules set down by the skirmish site layered on top of those.

Yes some are harder to enforce than others but there's already loads that are common and accepted yet are hard to enforce.  The vast majority of people follow them the vast majority of the time.

I've also played a site that had an ammo limit at all times and when it came out in the safety brief I watched a lot of hi-caps go back in bags.  Was one of my favourite sites that I re-visited quite often (by my standards).  Would people break the rule?  For sure, but unless you think a simple rule like any mentioned in this thread will make the gameplay worse then I'd propose there's not a strong case to object to it within the framework of this hobby.

 
100% they will and I could always be wrong.  But if you're willingly entering in to a recreational activity the probability is that you have a desire to engage in the game within the rules set down by the organisers and I think that applies to an especially high level in your average weekend skirmish given there is no prize to the 'winner' (if there even is an announced winner).  That's probably why the most competitive players who for some reason really want to win the fake Sunday battle and run around with a HPA'd drum mag Hi-Capa are often perceived to be the most likely to cheat and be dicks - whether they are or not I have no evidence to say.

Maybe if we got rid of all other rules and just upped a walk-on fee to at least £35-45 and sites became a lot happier to boot people we'd see a big improvement?  Maybe not though if someone was further financially invested in their game than usual.  But then if more marshals could be hired and they were better compensated for their time... swings + roundabouts.

End of the day safety actually is the number 1 priority and not over-shooting is very important in that regard.  The one thing I don't think is the answer is just to say 'fuck it nothing will work or change' and not try anything.  I'd go as far to say I'm confident in that regard, but some folks will say the problem isn't large enough and that is purely a personal perception matter and impossible to reconcile for most people.

 
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But if you're willingly entering in to a recreational activity the probability is that you have a desire to engage in the game within the rules set down by the organisers


My problem with airsoft remains the number of people who are not there primarily to play airsoft.

If they were, they wouldn't have to be nagged, cajoled and herded out of the safe zone game after game after game.

Whether it's socialising, geardo-peacocking, clowning for an audience, or whatever other reason, I generally have a better day hanging out with enthusiastic rentals or new players keen to know what they ought to be doing, rather than regulars who have firmly fixed ideas which can often vary wildly from the briefing that they've just talked over.

 
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My problem with airsoft remains the number of people who are not there primarily to play airsoft.

If they were, they wouldn't have to be nagged, cajoled and herded out of the safe zone game after game after game.

Whether it's socialising, geardo-peacocking, clowning for an audience, or whatever other reason, I generally have a better day hanging out with enthusiastic rentals or new players keen to know what they ought to be doing, rather than regulars who firmly fixed ideas which can often vary wildly from the briefing that they've just talked over.
Spot on, I played at an old power station in Kent years ago, great morning session, broke for lunch & approx 30 min later the organiser asks for everyones attention, turned around thinking it's the briefing for the next session, next thing stripper music comes on & some bird starts taking her kit off, I turned my back on it & got back to getting my kit in order, at which point I teammate nudges me & says "oy tack, you gone gay", I tell him "I've come to play, not watch some ropey tart get her kit off, there's a time & a place for this crap", load up & head outside. 

Point is, gamedays are for playing, sure you can have some bantz when doing it but hanging around for anything that doesn't involve shooting peeps, not my bag, & if a sites not on top of this, I usually don't go back ?

 
Maybe if we got rid of all other rules and just upped a walk-on fee to at least £35-45 and sites became a lot happier to boot people we'd see a big improvement? 
I think you're close to bang-on here, but I'd reframe it as being more happy to educate/address issues without thinking about specific rulesets (with banning as a follow-up solution)

That is - take this situation as an example, someone spamming some rentals with a high-ROF RIF. It might not be in the site's ruleset to prohibit over a certain ROF but most sites will certainly have the guidance about not being a dick, and so on. With that in mind a marshall should feel equipped and supported to go over and say "Hey, we've got no problems with the RIF in question but when you're firing really long bursts it's meaning the rental players here aren't having a great time and some are thinking of leaving. You'll need to stick to shorter bursts or semi from now".

The other half of the remediation is to show/explain to the rentals how suppression is effective, in general, in spite of ROF. But with rental timidity, a lack of understanding and so on they're probably not aware of how effective they can be at the same time - perhaps not to the same effect as the high ROF chaps but a little bit of education and encouragement for them to get stuck in could help change their attitude massively. Take off the hi-viz, take out a rental RIF and get stuck in with them for 10 minutes, being the "gunner" for the squad while they maneuvre through your suppressive fire.

One big caveat is that this takes a lot of work from a site/marshal team - but I think it's what should be expected, from players, and when I've seen it done it's often at the best run sites. But it's one of the best ways to get around issues without needing to create Rule32 Subsection B (iii) in the process that might put off future players, add complexity, yada yada.

 
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