TM Sig P226 original version and Guarder frame, slide and outer barrel

[emilianoksa]

Apparently the average punter is advised not to disassemble the P226 in case they can't get it back together again.

People are also advised never to try and fit a Guarder kit to it.

And yet I find myself at a loose end, and tempted to try both these bad ideas. 

I have watched a bloke on youtube who has fit metal kits to several TM pistols. However, his video of the P226 with Guarder kit was never completed. He did parts 1 and 2, but never got round to part three showing the fitting. This was quite some time ago.  Perhaps he gave up.

Has anyone on here done it? If so what are the pitfalls? I must say I don't like the idea of a steel outer barrel rubbing against the underside of an aluminium slide. 

I am probably an exception in preferring the original grip to the E2, and I like the unrailed frame more than the railed one. My plan would be to retain the TM internals if that is feasible.

 

[heroshark]

I used to run one many years ago. Wasn't that hard to fit.

 

[PureSilver]

Apparently people are advised not to disassemble the P226 in case they can't get it back together again.

What? The P226 is not a particularly difficult gun to work on.

People are also advised  not to buy a Guarder kit for it.

This falls under the usual die-cast Guarder MBK problem: their fit is usually pretty poor, and the guns require a lot of hand fitting to work, or sometimes even to be assembled at all. In particular sanding of the frame rails so the slide will fit over them is apparently often required. The other thing that pushed the Guarder kits out of favour is that you used to be able to get fully-CNC'd P226 kits from Pro-Win that were only a moderate price premium over the Guarders but obviously vastly higher quality. I have had two of those and still have one; here's an old photo from before a custom 3D-printed mount adapter that reduces the upward cant of the classic SureFire:

I had non-railed frames, with my first gun being built on a P226R and my second on an E2. My first was largely TM and the second has all the Guarder upgrades. From what I can see your biggest problem is that Guarder don't seem to make a new version of the non-railed frame, and have delisted most of the versions they used to make (P226-17, P226-18, P226-25), leaving only the unmarked version, P226-16.

• FireSupport have the tan version (P226-17(TAN)) and outer barrel in one (P226-09(BK)) and two-piece (P226-39(BK)) configurations in stock if that's of interest.
  
• Rainbow8 have the black non-railed frame (P226-18(BK)) and slide available separately in aluminium (P226-47(BK)) and steel (P226-46(BK) and P226-48(BK)), and P226-09(BK) and P226-39(BK).
  

Has anyone on here done it? If so what are the pitfalls? I must say I don't like the idea of a steel outer barrel rubbing against the underside of an aluminium slide.

The pitfalls will be in the fitting of the slide to the frame and the outer barrel to the slide, the rest is pretty simple to be quite honest. The fitting is liable to be time-consuming, though, and you will need fine sandpaper, a glass or otherwise very flat surface you can do wet sanding on, maybe even lapping compound and stuff if you want the fit to be really smooth. Fitting the outer barrel may take a long time if it needs a lot of material removed, since steel is much more resilient than cast aluminium. I had this problem fitting a VFC steel outer to an Inokatsu steel slide and it was aggravating.

Note that:

• If you want to put RS grips on it (I have wraparound rubber Hogues with finger grooves and highly recommend them) you'll need a RS spring seat. In theory I suppose you could take a lot of material off the TM one instead, but it would be brittle and the weight is likely a lead alloy, which would be very easy to ingest if you were doing something that created a lot of dust, e.g. grinding or filing it heavily. Guarder make nylon replacement grips (P226-37(BK)) if you only want the classic look.
  
• If you buy a kit made for the E2 and want to use old-style grips you'll also need bushings to push into the frame for the grip screws to grip. Both the frames linked above are for the P226R and don't need bushings.
  
• While you're buying Guarder parts I STRONGLY recommend buying their steel takedown lever (P226-29), I have broken at least two of the stock Marui ones.
  
• The E2 magazines are much better-looking than the P226R ones. Both magazines are cross-compatible.
  

I wouldn't worry about the outer barrel eroding the slide too much, unless you're planning on shooting the gun with CO2 a lot, in which case you'll want recoil buffers and a stiff spring anyway.

 

[emilianoksa]

Apparently the average punter is advised not to disassemble the P226 in case they can't get it back together again.

People are also advised never to try and fit a Guarder kit to it.

And yet I find myself at a loose end, and tempted to try both these bad ideas. 

Has anyone on here done it? If so what are the pitfalls? I must say I don't like the idea of a steel outer barrel rubbing against the underside of an aluminium slide. 

I am probably an exception in preferring the original grip to the E2, and I like the unrailed frame more than the railed one. My plan would be to retain the TM internals if that is feasible.

Thank you very much for taking the time to pass on so much knowledge.

You have given me food for thought.

 

[emilianoksa]

Is there any reason why the Guarder slide can't be used with the TM plastic outer barrel?

Is Guarder stuff so poor that its own parts don't fit together. I would have thought that if the frame and slide are both made by Guarder they should only require a little work, if at all, to fit. I mean their kits aren't exactly cheap.

And what is the advantage of having a cast aluminium slide over a pot metal one. It looks nicer and will probably hold up better, but how much better?

I'm beginning to wonder if I should save myself a lot of money and time and get a WE F226 instead. I had the WE E2 version and it worked well enough, had acceptable accuracy and good blowback.  

 

[infyrana]

Is there any reason why the Guarder slide can't be used with the TM plastic outer barrel?

Is Guarder stuff so poor that its own parts don't fit together. I would have thought that if the frame and slide are both made by Guarder they should only require a little work, if at all, to fit. I mean their kits aren't exactly cheap.

Sure, you'd like to think...  But no, cost does not always equate to quality.  Sure, Guarder might have gotten a bit better over the years or some people might have gotten lucky with a well made kit, but that's not always the case.  For example, you'd have thought drilling the hole for a 1911 dual safety selector would be an easy thing to align, but nope, not for Guarder.  Again, that's not to say it was bad on every kit, but at least the one I did was.

Providing it fits and works, you should be able to use the plastic outer barrel.  But when you have a metal slide, it will be the plastic parts or the weaker metals that will wear down, not the slide.  So if there's any rubbing etc, it will reduce the plastic down or simple grind past it.  On the flip side, if there's an ill-fitted metal outer barrel, you will need to take a lot of time and care to make it fit right - it's the one upgrade part I hate fitting in metal kits as there's a lot of movement and any badly made parts will stand out by simply jamming up the slide.

Mind if I ask what the goal of the full metal kit version will be for?  If it's purely for show then it will matter less, but if it's for cold weather skirmishing I'd personally stick to full plastic - but those are probably not your answers.

 

[emilianoksa]

Thanks for the advice. Lots of useful information.

I like to collect replicas of iconic pistols , and  plink with them at home or at a range. I have only ever used rifles for skirmishing, but if I wanted to use a pistol, I would probably use my TM Hi Capa.