Magazine Purging and Another Question.

[Ragnaraz]

OK, so I have been tinkering with my TM Samurai edge.

Swapped out a few parts in the slide, haven't touched the lower frame, trigger or hammer assembly. The Mag has a Nineball extension which seals nicely, a Nineball inlet valve and top rubber for a better seal with a standard valve for the jet.

After building up the gun and test firing it, everything works fine, then a few days later like today, if shot it seems to stick open and purge the mag of gas, anyone know what is going on? I don't mind stripping the gun and check, cleaning and relubing, just having a good idea where to start is handy.

Edit: The other question is the nozzle seems to not slide back properly by the spring return, yet when the mag wasn't purging the recoil made it all move as it should. The nozzle is the DP alloy one, with the power up valve and enhanced valve spring. not sure if I used too heavy a lube or not, would that cause the purging? If I need to remove some grease then I don't mind, it's all a learning curve.

Edit 2: Used a lighter lube to free things off from heavier ones, worked fine for a few shots, then decided to purge again. The nozzle makes a really good seal on the piston head, hence being a bit sluggish to move on it's own when moved out of place to test the return. can you get stronger return springs? Is that even the problem? I have the slide in bits, the standard nozzle would have the same seal strength with the DYNA head from a quick test. it still baffles me to why it worked fine for a while and now the mag wont close off properly. I can refil it and it holds the gas, its after a few shots it just releases all it's got.

 

[Ragnaraz]

No one got any pointers what so ever?

 

[Guest]

The problem is, it’s far from a  standard gun, so virtually impossible to diagnose.

I know what’s happening, the knocker isn’t resetting properly, so it’s keeping the outlet valve open on the mag.

The reason could be loads of things, but it normally boils down to not enough pressure to push the slide back (but not always)

That doesn’t mean the pressure is too low for a standard gun, it means there isn’t enough pressure to move your slide IF it’s a pressure problem.

It might be an issue with the hammer assembly causing the knocker to jam on the mag outlet valve, which releases all the gas in the mag and then there isn’t enough pressure to reset everything.

The best solution I can  offer, and always my go-to with pistol problems, is put it back to completely standard.

If it works, great, change one bit at a time until it stops working, then you’ve found your culprit most likely (though it may be a combination of mis-matched aftermarket parts in which case it will look like one part, but it might be two interacting)

If it doesn’t work COMPLETELY standard, one or more of the standard components is worn or damaged.

If you can’t tell but looking  at them, you’re left with changing out old parts for new OEM until it does work

rdb

 

[Ragnaraz]

@rocketdogbert Thank you for the reply.

I don't know if it would do it anyway but I took the slide off and squeezed the trigger, it stuck and dropped all it's gas still. That said I don't know if it would need some back pressure to actually close.

It's confusing because it was all fine and dandy, then just decided to start doing that.

I forgot to put in the end cap while dry fire testing it... could I have damaged something? The gun hasn't been used tbh, it's just a fun little project I started.

 

[Guest]

Sorry bud, does sound like you’re on a steep learning curve.

Yes, nothing to close the mg outlet

valve if you leave the slide off, same

with every pistol I’ve ever used

What’s an end cap?

 

[Ragnaraz]

@rocketdogbert haha just the way I like it ?

Ok, that happens when you don't push the little silver piece that allows the hammer to reset. I held that down by hand and squeezed the trigger in double action and it spurts and closes. When I slide the piston rail over the lower frame I see what you mean with the recoil, if it doesn't push it back far enough it doesn't clip the little silver hammer reset which would make it stick and purge all the gas in the mag.

I'm using Abbey [SIZE=12.6px]maintenance[/SIZE] gas while I mess about, could it be with the mods that, that particular gas doesn't have enough grunt to fully knock the slide back? I was thinking maybe it was the piston head slowing the nozzle movement, but with a better seal it should knock it back with more force rather than less. I also have a 15mm ish buffer on the recoil spring too. 

My semi educated guess would be that all my mods allow for a greater shot of gas down the barrel and the DP nozzle spring would take more to close than normal too so maybe on the maintenance gas it doesn't have enough oomph to counter the increased airflow and greater spring resistance to close off the internal valve to maximise the recoil pattern with the slightly stiffer recoil spring. Does that sound about right?

My thinking would be to get a more open valve like the Neo R to spurt more through per shot, more gas = more pressure, it would close the internal value and push the piston back too. Or use a stronger gas as it is to test that theory?

Any and all feedback by to my thinking is greatly appreciated.

Edit: the barrel end cap. I heard if you're gunna dry fire test it's best to have the barrel plug/ end cap on to simulate the back pressure of a BB. No idea if that's true or not. so much info out there that supports and debunks that. Some say dry firing is fine, others say don't... some say you can with certain guns.. or using certain gasses.... it's a minefield tbh, hence wanting to just get hands on and learn.

 

[Guest]

For goodness sake don’t make anymore mods to it.

Use a proper firing gas not maintenance gas.

You really are on a steep curve if you’re using a maintenance gas to test 

modifications

 

[Ragnaraz]

@rocketdogbert makes sense, I just thought I'd play it safe.

No disrespect to you personally, but trying to get info on forums can be like getting blood from a stone, or so much varying opinion that it's hard to move forward.

I messed about with Nerf stuff first and all the forums were really helpful and anyone who knew something chipped in and such. With airsoft? hardly anyone helps. Considering I'm trying to learn to do these things myself, it's not like I can ask a tech cause me doing it is money they're not earning. I am massively grateful for the imparted knowledge here. if you had not mentioned the recoil thing I wouldn't have checked and figured that hammer rest wasn't getting clipped.

 

[Shamal]

@rocketdogbert makes sense, I just thought I'd play it safe.

No disrespect to you personally, but trying to get info on forums can be like getting blood from a stone, or so much varying opinion that it's hard to move forward.

I messed about with Nerf stuff first and all the forums were really helpful and anyone who knew something chipped in and such. With airsoft? hardly anyone helps. Considering I'm trying to learn to do these things myself, it's not like I can ask a tech cause me doing it is money they're not earning. I am massively grateful for the imparted knowledge here. if you had not mentioned the recoil thing I wouldn't have checked and figured that hammer rest wasn't getting clipped.

Sound like you should stick to nerf.

I take exception to you saying 'in airsoft hardly anyone helps' 

I see guys trying to help you. 

If it ain't broke don't fix it! If you do 'fix it' and it don't work don't go grizzling that nobody want to help.

?

 

[EDcase]

To be fair, airsoft gunz are a bit more complicated than nerf so when people modify them it can be difficult to help because the problems are often unique to that build.

Rocketdogbert suggested to put it all back to stock and change one thing at a time.  That's the only way to test really...

It does sound like the reset actuator on the lower is not being pushed down properly by the slide part that is meant to activate it in the cycle.

Abbey gas is really only for plastic guns like TMs

 

[Alimcd]

My money is on the DP nozzle, I picked up a hi-capa one and couldn’t find an O-ring that would give me any compression in my box o’bits.

Stick your TM nozzle back in. 
 

Unless it had broken or deformed, there’s no real point in changing nozzles 

I appreciate the fact that the issue here is that the slide isn’t affecting the knocker lock, but I reckon that’s only down to a possible compression issue caused by low pressure gas and a leaky piston/nozzle fit

 

[ImTriggerHappy]

@rocketdogbert makes sense, I just thought I'd play it safe.

No disrespect to you personally, but trying to get info on forums can be like getting blood from a stone, or so much varying opinion that it's hard to move forward.

I messed about with Nerf stuff first and all the forums were really helpful and anyone who knew something chipped in and such. With airsoft? hardly anyone helps. Considering I'm trying to learn to do these things myself, it's not like I can ask a tech cause me doing it is money they're not earning. I am massively grateful for the imparted knowledge here. if you had not mentioned the recoil thing I wouldn't have checked and figured that hammer rest wasn't getting clipped.

Actually most airsofters and even techs will offer advice and more, I have done hundreds of hours of free work to help people out because that is the way the community is for the most part. The general camaraderie in the community is second to none.

Most techs will inwardly groan and back away once they hear the issue is because you messed with it without having a clue and fucked it up though. Generosity only goes so far and while helping the unfortunate is good for karma helping those who brought in on themselves is another form of karma.

Don't use maintenance gas for anything other than maintenance and dry firing is fine.

 

[Ragnaraz]

@Shamal At this moment yes, people are helping and I'm grateful, but I've had to go all over the place and ask questions and occasionally get answers.

The point I was making is on the whole Nerf community was helpful, new, old, custom or just advice. Airsoft is much more closed off. Your particular response kinda proves it. Loads of people do custom builds or "fix it" as you put it. Pretty sure I could find much more info on messing with Hi capas and Glocks. Likely people more interested in helping too. That doesn't just go for here but a few places I've looked and asked around.

I'm doing this build because it is awkward and not a mainstream custom people do often. I'm new to it in general and I'm learning by doing as much of it by myself as possible. Probably not the best choice for a new guy, but you don't learn without a challenge. I don't expect everyone to hold my hand, I'm just glad Rocketdogbert pointed out the recoil for the hammer reset.

@EDcase Sort of, depends on what gun you mess with and how far you take it. Different scope though. I've seen custom nerf builds with twin flywheel set ups on brushless motors (which need an andrino board programmed to control them) and flywheel braking, voltage meters, NFC mode selects, fire selects and probably more. That starts costing a fair bit too, much like airsoft. They even do custom brass breech HPA snipers, which is mental hitting 300fps with a bit of foam.

I appreciate the advice, I'll get some more proper shooting gas in, test things out under proper pressure and then start reverting and see what happens if the problem persists.

I'm still not sure what gas to get if I'm honest, seen a few threads on here saying 144a is all you can do with TM, then heard newer guns can take green gas because the piston rail and supports are metal... just be ready for the slide to eventually crack. Or you can't use GG cause the nozzle with break in no time (hence getting the CNC nozzle). Read people using 144a, Green gas in general, Abbey Predator Ultra, Nuprol black, some with modified guns, some with normal. I know some use different gasses at different times of year, some use the stronger gas all year. For a new guy trying to learn before he does things, the learning curve may as well be the Nurburg ring for how many twists there are depending on what you read and where.

Actually most airsofters and even techs will offer advice and more, I have done hundreds of hours of free work to help people out because that is the way the community is for the most part. The general camaraderie in the community is second to none.

Most techs will inwardly groan and back away once they hear the issue is because you messed with it without having a clue and fucked it up though. Generosity only goes so far and while helping the unfortunate is good for karma helping those who brought in on themselves is another form of karma.

Don't use maintenance gas for anything other than maintenance and dry firing is fine.

@ImTriggerHappyThat's understandable on the groan part, I don't want it doing for me, I just wanna mess about, make mistakes and learn. I can't really fully comment on that side of the community as I've not really seen that side. More avoidance cause as you say, I'm messing with stuff and it's not working out. Considering things are upgraded, what gas can be used in this one?

Thank you btw

My money is on the DP nozzle, I picked up a hi-capa one and couldn’t find an O-ring that would give me any compression in my box o’bits.

Stick your TM nozzle back in. 
 

Unless it had broken or deformed, there’s no real point in changing nozzles 

I appreciate the fact that the issue here is that the slide isn’t affecting the knocker lock, but I reckon that’s only down to a possible compression issue caused by low pressure gas and a leaky piston/nozzle fit

I thought that, but I have the DYNA piston head, the seal is great. I'm guessing the weak gas and recoil spring buffer is thwarting me, I may be wrong, but until I get a can of good gas again to see, I won't be able to properly test.

 

[Alimcd]

Are you UK based? Problem with advice on the internet is that it’s not necessarily local... 

Aside HPA and CO2, gas behaves quite differently depending on temperature. It’s probably true that a TM slide won’t stand up to green gas at 30*c, here - not a real issue.

Ditch the maintenance gas and go back to the original piston/nozzle combo 

Edit - if you’re confident about that seal. I’ll shut me gob! I just couldn’t get the DP nozzle to behave in any of my Hi-capas and I have a bit of a tendency to put the leg work in for shiny things 

 

[Ragnaraz]

Indeed, I am UK based. I don't skirmish or anything, I just take on new hobbies from time to time to learn new things. Did nerf, felt like Airsoft would be a good one to progress to, and you can get show pieces and game replicas, so the Samurai Edge was appealing cause I'm an RE nerd lol Just wanted it to be more "the part" you know?

What gas would be advised for a TM pistol? there are so many variants of "green gas" some only a little stronger than 144a from what I've read.

I may do that all considering, I would like to test it out with proper gas before making any choices though, just in case it is because I'm using weak gas. The upgrades may have to wait till I get a Guarder Ally body for it.

 

[ImTriggerHappy]

@Shamal 

@EDcase 

@ImTriggerHappyThat's understandable on the groan part, I don't want it doing for me, I just wanna mess about, make mistakes and learn. I can't really fully comment on that side of the community as I've not really seen that side. More avoidance cause as you say, I'm messing with stuff and it's not working out. Considering things are upgraded, what gas can be used in this one?

Thank you btw

Standard 144a is okay but can be too weak on a gun that is binding somewhere and can cause issues with the slide. Maintenance is full of lube and is not really designed for actual firing.

Nuprol 2.0 would be fine and is ok in all but the really old tm pistols. Most times people claim that standard green gas knackered their guns they leave out the half a dozen times they dropped it which weakened something in the first place.

 

[Alimcd]

Nuprol 2.0 would be fine and is ok in all but the really old tm pistols. Most times people claim that standard green gas knackered there guns they leave out the half a dozen times they dropped it which weakened something in the first place.

“Preach!”

Back in 2005/2006 I can remember getting ready to complain on Arnies about how green gas had broken my KSC M11. In reality, I just had no idea about how to maintain and lubricate moving parts

 

[Ragnaraz]

Standard 144a is okay but can be too weak on a gun that is binding somewhere and can cause issues with the slide. Maintenance is full of lube and is not really designed for actual firing.

Nuprol 2.0 would be fine and is ok in all but the really old tm pistols. Most times people claim that standard green gas knackered there guns they leave out the half a dozen times they dropped it which weakened something in the first place.

Not sure if it's binding, I have a few metal polishing bits about, I intent on polishing up the rail arms and the nozzle seats. that way it has minimal resistance. the piston seal is really good, could that actually be a problem too?

Not being a Skirm piece, this hasn't ever been knocked about. it's a show piece and target pistol really. 

Really grateful for the responses.

 

[alxndrhll]

@Shamal At this moment yes, people are helping and I'm grateful, but I've had to go all over the place and ask questions and occasionally get answers.

The point I was making is on the whole Nerf community was helpful, new, old, custom or just advice. Airsoft is much more closed off. Your particular response kinda proves it. Loads of people do custom builds or "fix it" as you put it. Pretty sure I could find much more info on messing with Hi capas and Glocks. Likely people more interested in helping too. That doesn't just go for here but a few places I've looked and asked around.

I'm doing this build because it is awkward and not a mainstream custom people do often. I'm new to it in general and I'm learning by doing as much of it by myself as possible. Probably not the best choice for a new guy, but you don't learn without a challenge. I don't expect everyone to hold my hand, I'm just glad Rocketdogbert pointed out the recoil for the hammer reset.

@EDcase Sort of, depends on what gun you mess with and how far you take it. Different scope though. I've seen custom nerf builds with twin flywheel set ups on brushless motors (which need an andrino board programmed to control them) and flywheel braking, voltage meters, NFC mode selects, fire selects and probably more. That starts costing a fair bit too, much like airsoft. They even do custom brass breech HPA snipers, which is mental hitting 300fps with a bit of foam.

I appreciate the advice, I'll get some more proper shooting gas in, test things out under proper pressure and then start reverting and see what happens if the problem persists.

I'm still not sure what gas to get if I'm honest, seen a few threads on here saying 144a is all you can do with TM, then heard newer guns can take green gas because the piston rail and supports are metal... just be ready for the slide to eventually crack. Or you can't use GG cause the nozzle with break in no time (hence getting the CNC nozzle). Read people using 144a, Green gas in general, Abbey Predator Ultra, Nuprol black, some with modified guns, some with normal. I know some use different gasses at different times of year, some use the stronger gas all year. For a new guy trying to learn before he does things, the learning curve may as well be the Nurburg ring for how many twists there are depending on what you read and where.

FWIW you're kind of talking around in circles at this point with the whole 'learn curve' thing. Without intending to be confrontational or offensive, though undoubtedly being both, based on the follow up question regarding what gas to use you'd have still been out of your depth had it been a Hi-capa or a Glock you were working on because your foundation of knowledge is so low. Bit too late now, but the 'Probably not the best choice for a new guy, but you don't learn without a challenge.' doesn't hold a huge amount of water given it would have still be a challenge had you started with a platform better suited to someone with your level of experience. Granted in my opinion, when it comes to airsoft work you're at the mercy of generally shite QC and tolerances so outside of wider/more convenient parts availability I'm not really sure that the starting RIF makes much of a difference... the largest difference being the size of the knowledge base around the platform. Which is likely why you've found getting answers more difficult alongside how awkawrd it is to actually diagnose issues as has already been highlighted.

As for the gas question, there are a few variables that go into it. The main question is longevity versus performance. In a Marui 144a is enough to get them to function and is what is recommended by Marui. Bear in mind Marui are a Japanese company, that manufacture their RIFs for the Japanese market and such, Japanese limits. They couldn't give a monkeys about the limits anywhere else. You can get higher power out of them with green gas, but as you've said they'll likely hit a point of failure sooner than they would on 144a. Much the same as running a battery powered RIF that's advised to be run on a 7.4v battery with an 11.1v battery, it'll work with either but it wasn't manufacturered to deal with the additional strains of an 11.1.

You'll want to be operating within legal limits (which I'd hope you know for wherever you're located), green gas is what the majority use in the UK (perfumed propane with some lube in).

 

[Ragnaraz]

FWIW you're kind of talking around in circles at this point with the whole 'learn curve' thing. Without intending to be confrontational or offensive, though undoubtedly being both, based on the follow up question regarding what gas to use you'd have still been out of your depth had it been a Hi-capa or a Glock you were working on because your foundation of knowledge is so low. Bit too late now, but the 'Probably not the best choice for a new guy, but you don't learn without a challenge.' doesn't hold a huge amount of water given it would have still be a challenge had you started with a platform better suited to someone with your level of experience. Granted in my opinion, when it comes to airsoft work you're at the mercy of generally shite QC and tolerances so outside of wider/more convenient parts availability I'm not really sure that the starting RIF makes much of a difference... the largest difference being the size of the knowledge base around the platform. Which is likely why you've found getting answers more difficult alongside how awkawrd it is to actually diagnose issues as has already been highlighted.

As for the gas question, there are a few variables that go into it. The main question is longevity versus performance. In a Marui 144a is enough to get them to function and is what is recommended by Marui. Bear in mind Marui are a Japanese company, that manufacture their RIFs for the Japanese market and such, Japanese limits. They couldn't give a monkeys about the limits anywhere else. You can get higher power out of them with green gas, but as you've said they'll likely hit a point of failure sooner than they would on 144a. Much the same as running a battery powered RIF that's advised to be run on a 7.4v battery with an 11.1v battery, it'll work with either but it wasn't manufacturered to deal with the additional strains of an 11.1.

You'll want to be operating within legal limits (which I'd hope you know for wherever you're located), green gas is what the majority use in the UK (perfumed propane with some lube in).

I apologise if it seems I'm being offensive or confrontational. I will say, the complexities between nerf and airsoft are entirely different, the margin for error in nerf seems wider and in a way most upgrades for nerf (generally speaking), wiring and power upgrades aside are pretty straight forward and if you have done it right... it works. Seems with airsoft even if you have the right part and have done it right... doesn't mean it will work without a bit of fine tuning. So upon more consideration, the chap who said Airsoft guns are a bit more complex... yeah they kinda are on the whole and can certainly be more of a pain to make run right with mods in comparison.

I can admit I am a bit of a cock, I tend to dive into these things at stages not really designed for newbies. I lean on the community for advice and pointers. A lot of airsoft stuff, like my current predicament is personal to my gun and choice of parts. Knowledge on this particular route is limited. I have watched many Hi capa builds, where nothing ends up stock at all. There is much info to be gleaned should I have gone that route, I could learn by others on youtube, alas.... for the SE I cannot.

Yeah, I have read the 144a, but so many people even right here say you can use a little stronger as long as you look after the gun properly. 

Edit: I am aware of TM and where they're from and the designs being based of what they're allowed legally to do. Like the law forbids metal replicas and such in Japan. I may be a newbie, but I have dome some homework ?