Mag Retention- the Soldiers Perspective

[Adolf Hamster]

figured this probably counts as off topic.

reckon we've got a few members on here who've served their country and maybe even spent some time on a 2-way range.

i'm kinda curious what the experience of things like magazine retention, number of rounds carried etc is. we're quite used to movies/video games/americans shooting stuff and seeing folk just dropping mags on the ground and not giving a damn but it feels like this is very much the opposite of what goes on with an actual army.

so what's the deal? will dropping any bit of issue kit lead you to straight to a bollocking from an nco and a month cleaning latrines? or is it more a case of "it's a gunfight, anything goes"?

my gut feeling is that somewhat like airsoft (or at least the way i play airsoft) mag retention is very much prioritized over speediboi reloading cos that shit's expensive and if you've got your buddies around you saving milliseconds on a reload isn't that big a deal.

 

[Keithlag]

if you start droping mags all over the place how can you refill them with the extra rounds you have it wont take to long to get through your 8 mags of 30 that you only put 28 in so the spring works better so you have less stopages.

 

[Dogsbody100]

Used to carry the L86A1 in service, sometimes you’d have up to 12 mags on your person being a support weapon and dropping/leaving behind any of them (or anything else) was a massive no no. 
 

Everything issued had to go back into stores.

After expending what you had in a mag (usually 28 rounds to save the spring) you’d dump it down the front of your smock where the webbing belt would hold it until you had 5 mins to transfer it back to the webbing. 
 

Even with all that mags would go missing all the time! 

 

[mightyjebus]

As Dogsbody100 says the magazines are issued along side the rifle. If you get 8 mags they want 8 mags back. On the plus side the mags aren't serial numbered so if you misplace one then another of the same make/model will do when handing them back in. the rifle has a serial number and butt number to make life easier for the armourer so you can't use that trick with the rifle (but seriously who looses a rifle?).

The older mags like the RG and early colt magazines would feed more reliably with 28 rounds in them the newer HK/EMAG/PMAG etc all have better springs so 30 rounds can safely be carried and fired. Don't forget that if you drop 2 rounds from each mag you will be 16 short with 8 mags so will need to reload sooner and if you are using all your mags then there is a good chance you don't want to be in the position to have to reload.

going back to the magazines, there were originally designed to be a consumable so the original idea was to use them and then drop them but somewhere along the tight-arsed british way they seem to have become accountable. On the flip side you can't walk through an American FOB without tripping over spare mags and loose rounds. ask anybody who has served in Iraq and Afghan about the red bins that litter the US camps - full of rounds from 9mm up to .50 cal. their ideas when it comes to mags and rounds are a lot different from the Britsh way. in fact the Britsh wareness around rounds can be summed up below.

I was driving to catch a helo flight at 4am and seen something in the middle of the road so I stopped the vehicle and jumped out and lying in the road was a 100 rounds of 7.62mm linked. Since it was pitch black and 4am, I couldn't see another soul so I jumped back into the vehicle and when I got to the helipad I gave them to the wee guy who controlled the flights as he was the only silly bugger awake at that time.

Fast forward a couple of days and I get a call from the RMP's. They asked my where I had found all these rounds? I was like "do you mean the 100 7.62?" and they ask "yeah but what about all the 5.56 and 9mm stuff in the bag as well?"

Turns out that when word got around that someone had found some rounds that were going to be handed in, all the unaccounted for loose rounds floating about mysteriously joined the 100 rounds I found. If this had been an American camp they would have just chucked them in the red bin.

(if anyone is wondering the 100 linked fell off the back of a Landrover heading out on patrol).

 

[Tackle]

Mine was a different time, just as accountable for every bit of kit, but forget mag retention, 58 pattern pouches were more like canvas buckets & pretty much a two handed job to secure.

thankfully (?) I was never in a firefight, reckon I'd have lost half my mags running between cover.

This thread is a good example of why I praise most of the brands of load bearing kit seen in airsoft, even viper, when you've had to use some of the worst issued kit, makes you appreciate the stuff that's around now.

 

[Adolf Hamster]

Hmm, some interesting perspectives.

I knew about the whole disposable magazine thing, few countries seem to have tried it all with the same result (presumably the officer equivalent of an accountant at the test picks it up and asks why it cant be used again)

So it's pretty common to carry loose ammo or is that more a situational thing?

 

[Diemaco]

Hmm, some interesting perspectives.

I knew about the whole disposable magazine thing, few countries seem to have tried it all with the same result (presumably the officer equivalent of an accountant at the test picks it up and asks why it cant be used again)

So it's pretty common to carry loose ammo or is that more a situational thing?

Loose? Not in my experience, but having a couple of extra boxes of ammo in your daysack, so you can refill the mags is quite a common occurrence on our exercises. 

 

[Tommikka]

Disposable magazines are a misnomer.  The lack of use of disposable magazines isn’t due to accountants.

There isn’t a real need to dump magazines, it’s a Hollywood thing.

If a soldier needs to shoot at such a rate that they have to drop magazines then they can do so with standard ones.

Ammunition is supplied boxed, not in magazines.  It’s more efficient that way - the box contains its capacity in ammunition not losing part of it to magazines.

On operations the ammunition has to be brought to those who need it.  Someone has to drive a lorry across the desert carrying it, risking being attacked, using fuel.  If they deliver ammunition in magazines then they are delivering less, and need to make more trips - just because someone wants to look cool and can’t be bothered to use something twice.

Delivering anything to a FOB risks lives.

You can of course send in helicopters rather than lorries, but they carry less and are at greater risk

If you’re dropping a perfectly good magazine then you’re bringing in dirt and risking damage, it’s going to cause a stoppage in the future and you’re going to make yourself more work

Soldiers already under load a standard magazine, a cheaper lower quality disposable magazine may also result in loading even less 

 

[EvilMonkee]

To add my service experience to the above (all of which is correct) its also part of the skills and drills for the L85 series that the mag comes off and goes back in the pouch before reloading.  Also, there was part of the weapon handling test where you were timed reloading mags.  Think it may have gone now but again it shows British doctrine that mags are not disposable.  Can also attest to shoving empty mags down the front of smocks etc when on Ex.

 

[Adolf Hamster]

Loose? Not in my experience, but having a couple of extra boxes of ammo in your daysack, so you can refill the mags is quite a common occurrence on our exercises. 

aye that's what i was meaning, when i said "loose" i was thinking "not in magazines" as opposed to just clinking about.

 

[mightyjebus]

normally I wouldn't quote wikipedia but in this case they make a good statement

"Magazines have been manufactured with lightweight aluminum or plastic bodies and other inexpensive materials in order to keep costs down, or to meet requirements that treat the magazine more as a disposable piece of equipment than one that is supposed to stand up to repeated combat use."

The RG mags were a good example of this, cheap, lightweight, easily prone to jamming from dirt and easy to damage however with the new HK mags, which added a stronger spring and better feed lips, the reliablity went up. The need to carry 28 rounds also went away with the better mags. individual riflemen are trained to clear stoppages so carrying 30 rounds per mag and clearing 1 or 2 stopages over 8 magazines is still better than being 16 rounds down. That's why you spend so much time on the range hearing "the rifle fires 1 or 2 more rounds and stops again"

The Colt made magazines have went through a couple of redesigns especially for the newer M855A1 round which did wear the aluminium feed lips on the M4.

This all applies to the AK platform as well. there have been 5 mag redesigns for the 47 platform alone. 

another way to look at this is if I lost an empty magazine (search catterick training area for 5 mins and you will find one probably) the most that would probably happen is I'd get shouted at for a bit and then get a bill for the replacement item. If I lost 1 bullet then my world would end.

 

[Tommikka]

normally I wouldn't quote wikipedia but in this case they make a good statement

There is nothing wrong with using Wikipedia as a source.

The ‘bad’ reputation was heavily spread in a blame game by parts of the media who failed to conduct proper research.  They used wiki sources purely as fact and repeated content.  Then got their fingers burnt and blamed Wikipedia for their own failings.

The primary benefit and disadvantage is that anyone can create or edit a wiki page.  The reader must take that into account, a benefit that almost the whole world can validate content, a disadvantage that almost the whole world can falsify content or be wrong.

 

[Adolf Hamster]

There is nothing wrong with using Wikipedia as a source.

The ‘bad’ reputation was heavily spread in a blame game by parts of the media who failed to conduct proper research.  They used wiki sources purely as fact and repeated content.  Then got their fingers burnt and blamed Wikipedia for their own failings.

The primary benefit and disadvantage is that anyone can create or edit a wiki page.  The reader must take that into account, a benefit that almost the whole world can validate content, a disadvantage that almost the whole world can falsify content or be wrong.

the problem with quoting wikipedia is the same as any other branch of the internet- you need to have enough existing knowledge/background in the subject area to be sure the information is correct.

needless to say background knowledge and modern journalism don't seem to be statements that fit together any more.

 

[Stodgy]

I would like to add my two pen worth. On ops it’s normal for bandoliers with ten round stripper clips to be used. We used to carry between 4-6 bombed up PMags. Cracking bits of kit they are may I add and if you have buckshee ones always good to trade with team USA. 
 

Our reason was easier and lighter for bandoleers with rounds in stripper clips to fit in daysacks etc. Takes seconds to rebomb them. Any decent section will pull one or two back to manage ammo in a good scrap. So it doesn’t really cause issues and ideally only the belt fed weapons are used along with precision strike weapons. More so in the winter tours in all honesty when 5.56 hasn’t the legs. Most of our spare ammo was link with most having at least one 200 round belt of both calibers. Forget that rubbish about breaking down belts. Doesn’t happen in my experience. 
 

In the future it’s all about weight saving and speed so less will be more. Less mags and easier access to stripper clips will be more prevalent and that’s being proven by experimentation now. 
 

Just my take on things based on my experiences 

 

[Adolf Hamster]

That's interesting, kinda the real shooting version of us airsofters stuffing a speedloader in a pouch.

 

[Diemaco]

I would like to add my two pen worth. On ops it’s normal for bandoliers with ten round stripper clips to be used. We used to carry between 4-6 bombed up PMags. Cracking bits of kit they are may I add and if you have buckshee ones always good to trade with team USA. 
 

Our reason was easier and lighter for bandoleers with rounds in stripper clips to fit in daysacks etc. Takes seconds to rebomb them. Any decent section will pull one or two back to manage ammo in a good scrap. So it doesn’t really cause issues and ideally only the belt fed weapons are used along with precision strike weapons. More so in the winter tours in all honesty when 5.56 hasn’t the legs. Most of our spare ammo was link with most having at least one 200 round belt of both calibers. Forget that rubbish about breaking down belts. Doesn’t happen in my experience. 
 

In the future it’s all about weight saving and speed so less will be more. Less mags and easier access to stripper clips will be more prevalent and that’s being proven by experimentation now. 
 

Just my take on things based on my experiences 

Just curious, but when you get issued boxed 5.56, is it also packed on stripper clips? Ours is, and it makes reloading mags a sight quicker than loading individual rounds. 

 

[mightyjebus]

normally the small cardboard boxed stuff is just loose rounds. The bandoliers are where you usually get the stripper clipped stuff.

 

[Diemaco]

normally the small cardboard boxed stuff is just loose rounds. The bandoliers are where you usually get the stripper clipped stuff.

That's interesting. All our boxed 5.56 (both live and blank) comes on stripper clips (usually black plastic). We had British Radway Green ammo a while back,  but I've no idea where it's from at present.