• Hi Guest. Welcome to the new forums. All of your posts and personal messages have been migrated. Attachments (i.e. images) and The (Old) Classifieds have been wiped.

    The old forums will be available for a couple of weeks should you wish to grab old images or classifieds listings content. Go Here

    If you have any issues please post about them in the Forum Feedback thread: Go Here

Joule Creep - A public science experiment

I guess the effect is only noticeable when the over voluming is beyond what an aeg can produce, since it relies on having the same propellant force throughout the entire travel down the barrel, so I guess that that means all gas guns (perhaps not CO2 ones if the valve closes well before the bb leaves the barrel) and I guess most hpa guns as well.

 
I think you could seriously over volume on aeg's.....

take a full cylinder box like an AK47 with 455mm barrel

then shove on a mp5k 110mm barrel = mofo over volume

I'm gonna go with say green gas might behave react differently as it hits end of barrel and expands as it hits air

or some other crap like that.....

dunno - don't care to watch an open university course on expansion of gasses as it reacts to air at speed malarky

just didn't seem to work for me on aeg - but was only about 100 to 125 mm over volumed

 
Maybe a crazy overvolumed aeg would do it. But I mean that a gas gun overvolumes in a whole different league, an AEG will never be able to over volume as much as a gas gun because of the high pressure of the green gas.

 
Wish I'd seen this a lot earlier, I don't have the patience to read through it all now lol.

The shortest explanation I can come up with is:

Joule Creep is an observable phenomenon that occurs when you chrono a gun with a higher cylinder to barrel volume ratio on .2s to pass chrono, and then change to a heavier weight to play.

So to break that down, it's important to understand that we don't actually chrono a gun for the fps reading, but the joules associated with that fps reading.

The faster and heavier something is, the more joules.

So fps limits are set because they put a cap on the max joules any gun on site ought to be putting out.

So, with that in mind. Let's say you've got a gas rifle - long barrel, powered by expanding gas.

On a .2, the shot is so light that it gets spat out using barely any of the power supplied at all.

I'm just making these figures up to explain it, but for argument's sake, let's say a .2 is accelerated out of the gun so easily that the time it spends in the barrel only leaves it time to have about 40% of the propellant sent down the barrel applied to it.

So now you've got 60% of that gun's power, shot to shot, just being wasted as surplus energy. It just comes out of the barrel after the shot and evaporates into the atmosphere.

Now the gun is chrono safe, or so they say, so the user loads up .3s to play, because they offer better wind resistance, accuracy and range.

This is where joule creep is dangerous.

People think this gun is safe, because it passed chrono. But, it passed chrono on a .2.

Adding more weight means that the 60% surplus power will now start to apply more of itself to the shots because it takes more energy to get them moving, they accelerate slower so they spend longer in the barrel.

The gun is now shooting hot in joule terms, despite having an observably lower fps than before.

Hence "creep" because the fps reading - should you chrono again to observe the fps drop or something - will be lower than before. But it won't be lower by as much as the conversion charts state, which means the joules will have actually increased, because the fps hasn't dropped by enough to balance it out.

The failing of the conversion charts is that they assume the same power is being used for each shot and each weight, when in reality, the weigh loaded literally dictates how much power gets applied to the shot, by the length of time it spends in the barrel.

The reason it's less apparent in AEGs is because they generally don't over volume unless the barrel is very short, and with short barrels, even heavier ammo isn't under enough concentrated pressure for long enough for it to gain a substantial amount of energy.

Also, a spring powered piston doesn't behave the same as expanding gas.

Air from a piston doesn't expand, so when it meets resistance from the BB being in the barrel, there's an air cushion between the piston head and the BB.

The BB being there actually acts sort of like a brake for the piston, limiting how fast it can move.

That's why AEGs sound different when they dry fire. Dry firing has the piston slapping the cylinder head with no resistance. Whereas when there's a BB in there, it hits home with a lot less force.

Where as gas doesn't give much of a shit what's around it, it's expanding whether you like it or not.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
This is why sites should really chrono on the weight you're going to use and then calculate the energy in Joules, rather than what some do and give you some .2s to put through the chrono.

I suppse that sets up a further need to trust people aren't saying they're using .2s when they're chronoing with .28s. I guess a set of scales would fix that but it's a lot of effort to go to.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
With regards to cheating chrono I often wondered at the chrono - no mag required

hold gun upright - marshall drops in his own 0.20bb

the bb would roll down barrel stopping just other side of hop up

holding gun at a slight incline to prevent bb rolling forward

NOW chrono it - deffo bb is 0.20gms, the hop wouldn't really matter if it was wound right on coz bb stops just in front of hop now

Readings should be slightly higher than a gun setup to fire 0.20's with hop on a little but suppose site could allow say 360 - 365 max

as their own 0.20 bb was fired with no real hop/spin on it

This would also save people who have their hop set just perfect for say 0.30 or 0.25's having to wind it fully off just for chrono

As a few sites demand zero hop off I am lead to think

Really never saw any joule creep on aeg's like I said - but maybe gas - green gas/propane may expand or behave differently as it propels bb

Maybe - and this is just pure bollox maybe when it reaches end of barrel is reacts slightly as it exits the barrel pushing the bb hit the air outside

Dunno about CO2 guns - they might also or might not have joule creep

Would be interesting to see if the HPA guns have any joule creep as they are using normal compressed dry air - unless they add anything else

so in effect what is being expelled is the same stuff an aeg fires so to speak

If so then in "theory" if HPA's didn't suffer creep then it would point to the type of gas used in propelling the bb

and would point to Gas Guns would only have to watched for creep

But yeah end of day the chrono is not 101% perfect but it is a rough basic test to start to ensure we have similar powered guns within the limits of site

Still could run a hot gun but that would mainly down to deliberate cheating rather than some gas guns having a bit of creep

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Back
Top