HK416/417, TM, VFC or G&G?

[Too0ld]

Hi guys

So I'm giving some serious thought into getting either a HK 416 or 417 but the question is which brand. I'm probably leaning more towards a 416 due to not having to get extra M4 mags but I prefer the look of the 417 so I need to make a decision. Either way I'll be looking at the shorter versions available (but not the HK416c, not a fan of the lack of battery storage/PEQ box battery) I've researched TMs, VFCs and also came across the G&G TR4-18. I prefer the TM and VFC models but wondered if anyone has had any experience with the G&G?

I understand the TM requires propriety mags (or those recoil shock PTS ones) and batteries (unless I convert for lipo) so this would be the more expensive option however, from my so far quite limited experience, I love the quality and performance of the TMs I own and others that I've have had the chance try out. Another thing about TMs that I'm not sure about is the whole recoil shock system, I'm just not a fan of it. I can understand why people do like it for realism and it is quite cool but I just see it as something that could go wrong, uses more power and is not really necessary for airsoft. I'm aware there is a device you can install so the TM 416 can use normal M4 mags (I run normal PTS EPM mags) but you loose the stop fire on empty fuction but I'm not too concerned about that. How easy is it to disable the recoil shock feature and does this impact the performance? 

I'm unfamiliar with VFCs but from what I can gather they are well built, look excellent but I've read conflicting information about the quality of their internals. I've not had any experience with VFCs personally but a few people I've spoken to who have and some say they are fantastic and others say meh so not sure what to think - this may be down to speaking to some who are more experienced and technically minded and have a better understanding of internals and others who are comparing it to the rentals they had been using before getting their own!

Although I haven't owned a G&G I have tried a few out as they seem to be everywhere and I have been surprisingly impressed by a few models (such as ARP9/556) for what they cost. Having said that though I much prefer quality over quantity and would hate to waste £300 odd quid on the G&G and then find that I should have bought the TM or VFC.

I have no immediate plans to upgrade so I want to know which will offer the best balance of quality, performance and reliability straight out of the box.

Any help or advice would be much appreciated, and if there are any other brands that I should consider please let me know

 

[Druid799]

To be honest bud if your going to disable the recoil and aren’t bothered by the mag stop then I don’t see any point in you getting the TM seeing as there the big selling points for most players !

 

[Too0ld]

To be honest bud if your going to disable the recoil and aren’t bothered by the mag stop then I don’t see any point in you getting the TM seeing as there the big selling points for most players !

Yeah I'm pretty sure I would not be bothered about the recoil shock features of the TMs, but I'm pretty sure it would be a great gun due to previous TM experiences. I suppose it is 'fear of the unknown' when it comes to VFC or G&G

 

[heroshark]

vfc has a nice external but internal it a bit meh. That is easily sorted being a v3 gb plenty you can do to fix that. As above no point getting a tm if you are not interested in the features. This said It use no more power than an other aeg because of it and although the recoil is removable it's not like its heavy. Pretty much not worth opening to mess it up and the stop on empty is really useful. The have a nice external not quite vfc but with the gb left stock lasts years as long as you don't seriously knock it about it'll be fine. Lipo mod is pretty much a standard its not worth running those silly nihms when you factor the costs. Stick a nice barrel an hop in leave th gb till it breaks then pour money into upgrading the gb you cant go wrong.

 

[Too0ld]

vfc has a nice external but internal it a bit meh. That is easily sorted being a v3 gb plenty you can do to fix that. As above no point getting a tm if you are not interested in the features. This said It use no more power than an other aeg because of it and although the recoil is removable it's not like its heavy. Pretty much not worth opening to mess it up and the stop on empty is really useful. The have a nice external not quite vfc but with the gb left stock lasts years as long as you don't seriously knock it about it'll be fine. Lipo mod is pretty much a standard its not worth running those silly nihms when you factor the costs. Stick a nice barrel an hop in leave th gb till it breaks then pour money into upgrading the gb you cant go wrong.

Thanks this is really helpful, like mentioned the recoil system is not of much interest to me but it's good to know that it doesn't have a lot of weight to it and I can see how stop on empty is useful, I just don't like the idea of shelling out for a set of new mags! Other than the lipo mod I can't imagine I would need to do anything to the TM for a long time as you've mentioned whilst the VFC might need tinkering so I am now more leaning towards TM, I really need to see them in the flesh.

 

[lokkers]

I've got a VFC 416 and I love it. Solid gun, shoots well and the external finish is excellent. I was in the same position as you last year (TM vs VFC), and opted for the VFC for pretty much the same reasons: LIPO ready, got existing STANAG magazines, and it was cheaper.

That being said, I've just bought a TM SCAR-L NGRS and I'm sold. I've not skirmished with it yet, but the recoil shock is awesome, and I can see the empty stop will add to the immersion. 

Like I said, I love my VFC, but if I had my time again I'd probably get a TM 416 (or the new Mk18)

 

[Too0ld]

I've got a VFC 416 and I love it. Solid gun, shoots well and the external finish is excellent. I was in the same position as you last year (TM vs VFC), and opted for the VFC for pretty much the same reasons: LIPO ready, got existing STANAG magazines, and it was cheaper.

That being said, I've just bought a TM SCAR-L NGRS and I'm sold. I've not skirmished with it yet, but the recoil shock is awesome, and I can see the empty stop will add to the immersion. 

Like I said, I love my VFC, but if I had my time again I'd probably get a TM 416 (or the new Mk18)

I really appreciate this, thanks. I'm thinking that if I did get a VFC I would doubtless end up getting a TM at some point as well anyway so should probably go TM first.

Before deciding on the 416/7 I was also considering the SCAR L/H as well. I was thinking 416/7 due to familiarity with the platform but SCARs seem very similar. I know it is obviously subjective but which between the 416 and SCAR do you find has the better handling qualities and general ergonomics?

 

[Wo1f]

Scar is the more ergonomic platform. Controls are in the same place, but the selector is 90 degrees safe to auto instead of 180, mag release is ambi and the stock folds, as well as taking a good sized 7.4 lipo without mods.

 

[lokkers]

I really appreciate this, thanks. I'm thinking that if I did get a VFC I would doubtless end up getting a TM at some point as well anyway so should probably go TM first.

Before deciding on the 416/7 I was also considering the SCAR L/H as well. I was thinking 416/7 due to familiarity with the platform but SCARs seem very similar. I know it is obviously subjective but which between the 416 and SCAR do you find has the better handling qualities and general ergonomics?

If you're thinking you'll end up with a TM down the line, then get it now. No point getting a VFC 416, only to then replace it with a TM.

The only draw back for going for a TM setup is the initial cost.  The SCAR and 4 PTS EPM mags set me back the best part of £600 (?), and the 416 is more expensive than the SCAR.

Whilst I believe you can use non-TM mags in TM NGRS', you won't get the stop-on-empty, and you need an adapter. The TM NGRS mags don't fit non-TM guns either (at least they don't fit my VFC).

Ergonomics wise, I think they're pretty similar but I'd agree with Wo1f - the SCAR edges it. The 45 degree throw on the selector switch is much nicer. I'd say the SCAR also feels slightly lighter, although I've not weighed them.

View attachment 44622

 

[Too0ld]

I really appreciate your input guys, I'm gonna go TM but you've reopened the SCAR/416 debate in my head again! I'm in no rush so I'm going to take the time and scope out both versions in the flesh, I've got to be sure if I'm considering spending £600 with extra mags. The lower cost of the SCAR plus the fact that it doesn't require mod for the battery is attractive, as is the folding stock.

Can I just double check something: is it just the TM M4s, 416/7 and SCARs that have the empty stop function and the rest just have the recoil function?

 

[Sharpe_95]

I can't speak as an expert, but I bought a TM HK416 DevGru in Jan as my first gun having got into the sport. It seems to be a very reliable, well built and robust system that shoots very well (not just to my uneducated eye but also to my mates that have done airsoft for years).

I use a 7.4v, 1100mah Nurprol lipo on deans in a magpul stock instead of the proprietary stock (from daves custom rifles in the UK, which has a nice space for that exact battery cut into the rubber plate).

I don't notice that the EBB takes up battery. The 7.4, 1100mah battery lasts all day (10 till 3) with perfect shooting. This may be because I only use single shot? That said perhaps the battery life is offset by the lower FPS from the TM vs most guns pushing out c.325+?

Certainly the main reason I bought the TM 416 was because I wanted a gun that shot really well straight out the box, would never need to be upgraded and was highly reliable (in fact most people say NOT to touch TMs as they shoot so well and if you tinker with them the 'magic pixies fall out').

Anyway, hope this helps. 

- Sharpe. 

 

[Too0ld]

(in fact most people say NOT to touch TMs as they shoot so well and if you tinker with them the 'magic pixies fall out').

Yeah I've heard about the TM fairy dust! Other than mod for batteries I would be leaving it untouched until something goes then look at the possibility of upgrading. My TM P90, which is standard and is about 285 fps out ranges my krytacs which are about 330-340 fps, I don't know what witch craft they put into them but the last thing I want to do is loose any of it!

Thanks for your input, nice to hear about how much you get out of the batteries, I use those batteries (albeit without deans) in my Vector and was planning on using them for the recoil shock I get.

I do like the look of the Devgru but I'm leaning more towards the 416D. One is cost but I also like attachments to have functionality so a mock suppresser is a bit pointless for me. I do like the QD aspect of it on the Devgru though and I have wondered if a tracer unit could be installed in it, that could sway me.

 

[tasum]

Don't mean to hijack this thread, but can you shoot the tm scar with the stock folded? Do they have a wire connection that is exposed when the stock is folded?

 

[lokkers]

Don't mean to hijack this thread, but can you shoot the tm scar with the stock folded?

Yep, although I don't know why you would unless you're some sort of heathen ?.

The wire is visible, but it looks pretty sturdy and doesn't get in the way when the stock is folded.

View attachment 44669

 

[Prisce]

Don't mean to hijack this thread, but can you shoot the tm scar with the stock folded? Do they have a wire connection that is exposed when the stock is folded?

I do it all the time. I use it for tight areas, or when on the run with an objective, much to the frustration and annoyance of most people who think I’m doing something evil.

 

[ImTriggerHappy]

I do it all the time. I use it for tight areas, or when on the run with an objective, much to the frustration and annoyance of most people who think I’m doing something evil.

Ditto it is why I prefer folding stocks on all my toys. 

 

[Too0ld]

Apologies for resurrecting this thread but I just wanted to thank everyone for your help and advice. I checked out the 416 and SCARs and after making a tough decision I am now the proud owner of a 416 Devgru. I wasn't intending on getting the Devgru as I wasn't all that fussed about the attachments and thought I would get the 416D but I was mightily impressed with the overall quality and once I shot it I was sold. I loved the ergonomics of the SCAR and I would have got one if I was thinking with my head but my heart took over and I just couldn't ignore the fantastic looks of the Devgru and I know I made the right decision. I had it converted for lipos and now I've just got to track down the elusive PTS EPM recoil mags...

 

[lokkers]

Good stuff! 

Finally getting to to a skirmish today with my new SCAR, so fingers crossed I’ll still love it by the end of the day!