What Are People Doing for UKARA Nowadays?

[Armo1000]

Technically, you don't pay for UKARA. You pay your site's membership fee. But some sites add an 'Admin' charge for updating the database for you.

I pay £13 for yearly membership to GZ and that's it. Membership also drops the price by £5 per game day, so you recoup the money after three visits.

I must be lucky then because our regular place Tech Brigade never asked or asks for any money besides the walk on fee.

 

[Jaylordofwaargh]

What has always been the flaw in UKARA (from a players perspective) is the 3 game (at same site) rule, as it is often the requirement of sites that sign you up as a member then add you to the UKARA list.

When we can play again I want to go to ALL the sites! Sure I may want to go back to the first one, however going to lots of local sites is supporting many business. 

I also want to add to the collection - two tone is something I may just have to suck up, but there is the extra cost as well. Some retailers are charing £15 for the work (admittedly some are sticking a token £1 or doing it for free) which may not sound like much but is an extra I would rather spend on travel or go towards a game day. 

Personally this means I will have to try an UKARA alternate (and i'll add my research and outcomes to that older thread) or stick to playing 1 site over the summer (if we can go play) or maybe as mentioned above make take evidence to a retailer (bookings and photos of games)....

Would I still airsoft if we had to use nerf! styled if's - yes -

would I play less woodland - not I don't exactly sneak in my play style....

My 2p

 

[DRay]

What has always been the flaw in UKARA (from a players perspective) is the 3 game (at same site) rule, as it is often the requirement of sites that sign you up as a member then add you to the UKARA list.

When we can play again I want to go to ALL the sites! Sure I may want to go back to the first one, however going to lots of local sites is supporting many business. 

I also want to add to the collection - two tone is something I may just have to suck up, but there is the extra cost as well. Some retailers are charing £15 for the work (admittedly some are sticking a token £1 or doing it for free) which may not sound like much but is an extra I would rather spend on travel or go towards a game day. 

Personally this means I will have to try an UKARA alternate (and i'll add my research and outcomes to that older thread) or stick to playing 1 site over the summer (if we can go play) or maybe as mentioned above make take evidence to a retailer (bookings and photos of games)....

Would I still airsoft if we had to use nerf! styled if's - yes -

would I play less woodland - not I don't exactly sneak in my play style....

My 2p

Agree RE: same site three times. Playing at the same site is boring and you just end up learning the map which for me removes most of the challenge. That said, unless you live somewhere with 52 airsoft sites law of averages would suggest you will play the same one three times within the required 12 months. 

 

[ak2m4]

What has always been the flaw in UKARA (from a players perspective) is the 3 game (at same site) rule, as it is often the requirement of sites that sign you up as a member then add you to the UKARA list.

When we can play again I want to go to ALL the sites!

Sure it's a big problem, I was chatting to an app developer I used to work with and he was looking into developing an alternative system, not spoke to him for a while but I liked the ideas he was putting forward.  Basically register on website / app, then app on phone with QR code get scanned when you play, when you want to prove your defense you can give out a one-time passcode / URL to view the info.

 

[SSPKali]

Sure it's a big problem, I was chatting to an app developer I used to work with and he was looking into developing an alternative system, not spoke to him for a while but I liked the ideas he was putting forward.  Basically register on website / app, then app on phone with QR code get scanned when you play, when you want to prove your defense you can give out a one-time passcode / URL to view the info.

Ooh interesting idea, I guess that makes the GDPR angle easier as you control your data and who (other than the sysadmin) gets to see it.

Having a database of personal information linked to gun* ownership isn't a headache I would want! UKARA (from their GDPR statement) seems to want to keep all the data in perpetuity...not sure how legal that is (guess who spent a day doing Data Protection Act training today!)

 

[Tommikka]

Ooh interesting idea, I guess that makes the GDPR angle easier as you control your data and who (other than the sysadmin) gets to see it.

Having a database of personal information linked to gun* ownership isn't a headache I would want! UKARA (from their GDPR statement) seems to want to keep all the data in perpetuity...not sure how legal that is (guess who spent a day doing Data Protection Act training today!)

I’m not so switched on with GDPR as opposed to older DPA...... but I understand that there isn’t a time limit on data retention, only that the duration is valid (no longer than its required) etc

The statement shows their intention to hold beyond expiry, and a reason for doing so.

If it was just a membership list for checking details as of today then expired membership might not be suitable to be kept, but they have covered it by stating that a sale might need to be checked at a later date

 

[ak2m4]

@SSPKali when I last spoke to him he said he put the question to an airsoft group on FB but no one seemed that interested in such a system, all very negative! I did say FB probably not the greatest place to ask the question.  GDPR questions never arose, far more interested in working out the technology side of things.  The one-time URL that would expire is a nice touch and of course the ability to view your own information.

Sadly I don't think he's continuing with the idea due to the negativity he experienced, I did recommend he just build a rough working concept and get a single site to trial it.  Maybe it's worth me reaching out to him, be interested to know what others think; constructive ideas etc.

 

[DrAlexanderTobacco]

@SSPKali I did say FB probably not the greatest place to ask the question. 

Waste of time gauging interest in the first place imo - the way I'd do it would be to just get it working, "minimum viable product" etc. and shop it out to a couple of sites with high crossover close together. It could be a hard sell if the site owners are happy with the extra money/retention that UKARA brings, but I don't know whether there are membership fees for UKARA itself etc.

Point being, get it out in the open somehow, get people using it and you'll get people recommending it on FB rather than just hawking it.

SSPKali on-point about security as well - needs to be done properly

 

[Jaylordofwaargh]

. It could be a hard sell if the site owners are happy with the extra money/retention that UKARA brings, but I don't know whether there are membership fees for UKARA itself etc.

Not just the membership fees (£10 i'm fine with) it is the you must come here FOUR times! Well it does vary, the local sites are between 1-4 visits. The retailer/site relationship is a key factor in trying to sell another system. 

The app looks to work on a BAC style ideal, I would spend the money to be signed up to this - didn't see it on which ever fb group it was on. It can be a cavern of bs. Unaffiliated sites and stores? That could be an avenue.

 

[jsmithski]

Anyway,  UKARA is there for a reason. It’s our way of self regulation to a degree. Otherwise we will end up like Australia and running around with Gel Blasters. It just takes one person to act like an idiot and bring our hobby into disrepute. 

There are more countries where there’s no airsoft legislation. Does the UKARA really helps keeping the community safe? Australia is a totally different case, their government is mental.

 

[AlphaBear]

There are more countries where there’s no airsoft legislation. Does the UKARA really helps keeping the community safe? Australia is a totally different case, their government is mental.

The United Kingdom Airsoft Retailers Association was formed in response to the 2006 Violent Crime Reduction bill to enable a safe method of selling Realistic Imitation Firearms (RiF's) to the UK Airsoft player market by confirming the eligibility of purchasers. > Will it keep the community safe? Not at all, but it is there to sell RIFS to legitimate players and therefore acts as a responsible instrument to show the authorities that there is self regulation within our sport.  I believe if there was no UKARA then we would either all be running around with two tones or worse still the whole hobby would be stopped. 

Oz is an extreme example of course but there are countries where two tone is compulsory so we are in a good place with having UKARA. for that sole reason we should be thankful for the scheme. I appreciate there are some  players who don't like the scheme as it stops them buying RIFS  but look at the potential alternatives of not having the scheme and what could happen. 

 

[jsmithski]

The United Kingdom Airsoft Retailers Association was formed in response to the 2006 Violent Crime Reduction bill to enable a safe method of selling Realistic Imitation Firearms (RiF's) to the UK Airsoft player market by confirming the eligibility of purchasers. > Will it keep the community safe? Not at all, but it is there to sell RIFS to legitimate players and therefore acts as a responsible instrument to show the authorities that there is self regulation within our sport.  I believe if there was no UKARA then we would either all be running around with two tones or worse still the whole hobby would be stopped. 

Oz is an extreme example of course but there are countries where two tone is compulsory so we are in a good place with having UKARA. for that sole reason we should be thankful for the scheme. I appreciate there are some  players who don't like the scheme as it stops them buying RIFS  but look at the potential alternatives of not having the scheme and what could happen. 

I hope we will never have to do the same here in PL but if for any reason it becomes a necessity it’s still not the end of the world.

 

[MiK]

So has anyone recently got a non UKARA membership like justco or sportsman and managed to buy any rif’s ?

my UKARA actually expired today and I was planning a getting a little something to cheer my lockdown blues a bit

 

[GenuineGerman]

I use my re-enactment membership and PLI to buy RIF's

 

[Jaylordofwaargh]

So has anyone recently got a non UKARA membership like justco or sportsman and managed to buy any rif’s ?

my UKARA actually expired today and I was planning a getting a little something to cheer my lockdown blues a bit

Surely you are sat in an easy spot, can you not just get in contract with the site that signed you up to resubmit? Even if they charge to renew membership thats still cheaper than the others discussed here... 

I sit in that odd place of being an airsofter that for various reasons hasn't qualified for UKARA numbers. For the sake of hilarity consider the following

2019: 2 games - working lots but managed to get to the same site 

2020: two days before game day :LOCKDOWN: fine, move to summer CSW (rip) closes, rough for everyone. New site - sneak in a game in summer and October and boom lock down again. I'm looking into BAC but would need CS to verify.

Still, I have a decent fund for the next guns now...

 

[gunbod007]

So I just forked out an extra £50 for Sportsman's Association to use as Valid defence on my import from KYairsoft. Having ordered it I realised they offer 2 part shipping which would probably get through customs but anyway spoken to a firearms lawyer and he reckons this should be enough.

Really interesting point here is that UKARA is essentially preferred by retailers because it is pretty solid as defence and holds up in court. At the end of the day it is their responsibility to check.

But legally speaking you can buy or import a RIF without any of these previously discussed memberships. If you had an FAC for example you could say the RIF is for drills or target practice.

You just need a valid excuse essentially that if a reasonable person was to judge you they would say yeah he's not using this RIF for bad reasons. That valid excuse or defence has no exact legal licence or membership. UKARA has just become a very popular way for retailers to protect themselves but they can accept whatever defence they deem fit.

 

[Neptune]

If you had an FAC for example you could say the RIF is for drills or target practice.

You could say that, but it's not a defence under the law so would likely be rejected.

 

[DrAlexanderTobacco]

But legally speaking you can buy or import a RIF without any of these previously discussed memberships. If you had an FAC for example you could say the RIF is for drills or target practice.

Legally speaking, you can buy or import a RIF without any defense - it's up to the seller to decide on which defenses they'll accept as it's an offense to sell one. Customs can be tricky too always dicey going with someone outside of the norm. Importing through customs until, by memory 2014ish was chance if you even found someone who understood UKARA.

 

[ak2m4]

Legally speaking, you can buy or import a RIF without any defense - it's up to the seller to decide on which defenses they'll accept as it's an offense to sell one. Customs can be tricky too always dicey going with someone outside of the norm. Importing through customs until, by memory 2014ish was chance if you even found someone who understood UKARA.

I ordered an AEG from HK only late last year with no defense marked on the box, arrived no problem - some slip through, some don't.  I've heard 1 in 10 are sent away to be checked.  I'm still skeptical regarding how customs access the UKARA system.  If you were one of the UK retailers who owned and operated that database would you allow UK customs to access it so potential customers can purchase outside the UK hmmmm. 

Going forward be nice to have a system where the sender could include a defense URL in the documentation or on the shipping label.  

 

[Tommikka]

So has anyone recently got a non UKARA membership like justco or sportsman and managed to buy any rif’s ?

my UKARA actually expired today and I was planning a getting a little something to cheer my lockdown blues a bit

Normally threads on how to obtain RIFs without UKARA would cover the fact that VCRA doesn’t require UKARA but (for airsoft) a ‘defence’ that reflects the VCRAs skirmisher defence

Evasion wouldn’t be endorsed.

The current situation makes things difficult - we can’t play, some people

are strapped for cash and others have their disposable income piling up.

We want shiney things to keep us happy and we also want to support businesses so they still exist when this is all over

As your UKARA is only just expired, the first port of call would be to check in with the site you are a member of and see if they will extend 

So I just forked out an extra £50 for Sportsman's Association to use as Valid defence on my import from KYairsoft. Having ordered it I realised they offer 2 part shipping which would probably get through customs but anyway spoken to a firearms lawyer and he reckons this should be enough.

Really interesting point here is that UKARA is essentially preferred by retailers because it is pretty solid as defence and holds up in court. At the end of the day it is their responsibility to check.

But legally speaking you can buy or import a RIF without any of these previously discussed memberships. If you had an FAC for example you could say the RIF is for drills or target practice.

You just need a valid excuse essentially that if a reasonable person was to judge you they would say yeah he's not using this RIF for bad reasons. That valid excuse or defence has no exact legal licence or membership. UKARA has just become a very popular way for retailers to protect themselves but they can accept whatever defence they deem fit.

Split deliveries are a ‘possible’ workaround as they are different sets of ‘parts’.  But customs are aware of methods of smuggling

Breaking down a RIF into multiple packages is exactly that - smuggling.  This was offered by many Hong Kong retailers when the VCRA initially came into force 

Not ideal ‘advice’ from a lawyer

‘Valid excuse’ is not enough under the VCRA, you need one of the defences under the VCRA ad your ‘valid excuse’

For target practice you do not need a RIF. An IF will do just as well, and you aren’t restricted to basic blue BB guns, there is the two tone painting service

On a sale within the UK it is the sellers responsibility, on import it is the importers responsibility 

UKARA has popularity because it was introduced in negotiation with government and is the scheme that’s proposition enabled the skirmisher defence

You could say that, but it's not a defence under the law so would likely be rejected.

As on another thread a ‘shooter’ successfully managed to buy a RIF from a UK retailer for the purpose of practice for their FAC firearms.  They have the valid sportsman membership and insurance because that is their primary use.  On that thread we noted that the sale is not VCRA compliant on that basis, but as it’s a UK retailer to buyer sale then any fallout is the retailers problem

For gunbod it’s a different matter - they are the importer.  The different packages might get through, or they might get matched and challenged leaving gunbod with nothing or a box of RIF parts when one package gets through and the other gets stopped