The_Lord_Poncho Posted October 24 Share Posted October 24 19 hours ago, Rogerborg said: Spot the firearm, the air weapon firearm, and the non-firearm air weapon here. Top - air gun (based on the semi-only selector) middle - firearm (H&K logo on the folding stock) bottom - airsoft (process of elimination) actually - just spotted the bottom one too only has semi. But loads of white text safety blurb printed on both the top and bottom options, so those must be the more dangerous ones. Oh, wait, hang on.... Rogerborg 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenJackson Posted November 21 Share Posted November 21 On 24/10/2024 at 12:02, Pseudotectonic said: Ok after looking up statutory interpretation, it seems there are various rules the judge can use for interpretations, but it is up to the judge to decide which rule to use. And among these rules, the only way airsoft is considered air weapon is if it is taken using the Literal Rule and selectively with certain English dictionaries and not others, and very selectively on words, and without considering the generally understood conventional classifications. Meaning even with this method the judge will have to quite purposefully go out of his way to interpret airsoft as air weapon, which should never happen. Paperback Oxford English Dictionary says "Air rifle" (or "air pistol") is defined as: a gun which uses compressed air to fire pellets. And then "pellet": a piece of small shot or other lightweight bullet. - Origin Old French pelote 'metal ball'. Cambridge Dictionary online says "air rifle" is: a gun [...] uses air pressure to fire a pellet (= small metal ball). And when using other methods i.e. Golden Rule or Mischief Rule or Purposive Approach, then airsoft should logically be excluded. The exclusion of "airsoft" (as a class of barrelled weapon with certain ballistic characteristics) from "firearm for the purposes of this Act" should extend to "firearm [and shot gun and air weapon] ..." because that should be the more accurate meaning within context, and for the purposes of the introduction of the exclusion as a general exclusion to the Act. And generally, I think any judge would select the easiest method of interpretation, and the "general exclusion" method is the most straightforward, and would require the least interpretation gymnastics from the judge. To say "airsoft is air weapon" would require the judge (actually, firstly, the prosecutor) to make a technical judgement to explain how a particular airsoft rifle uses compressed air or air pressure therefore it is air weapon, and why metal pellet is irrelevant to such a definition. Which should be easily defended with above by the defendant (or his solicitor). So I guess we should be safe for now. Airsoft guns are not "air weapons" under the Section 57A. This changes when we breach the "lethal" power limits as described. If this is a bolt action gun then this becomes an air rifle by legal definition, which unless you're in Scotland, won't get you in any hot water for ownership, but a site would be screwed if somebody complained of an injury and it was discovered you were over the limits and had technically injured them with an air rifle. The same can be said for fully automatic airsoft guns, although once these surpass the specified limit, they become Section 5 firearms, meaning there's no legal variation between your airsoft gun, and a completely bog standard real M240B. As already stated, the UK firearms law is incredibly poorly written, with far too many overlaps and grey areas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Rogerborg Posted November 22 Supporters Share Posted November 22 21 hours ago, BenJackson said: Airsoft guns are not "air weapons" under the Section 57A. I'm baffled by why that would be. All that 57A says is: An “airsoft gun” is not to be regarded as a firearm for the purposes of this Act. Anything beyond that is inference and (absent case law) assumption, not explicit. 21 hours ago, BenJackson said: As already stated, the UK firearms law is incredibly poorly written, with far too many overlaps and grey areas. 115% agreement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
novioman Posted November 24 Share Posted November 24 Forgive me if this has been mentioned in an early post. If airsoft guns are legally airguns then mail order delivery wouldn’t be possible, it would have to be RFD transfer to RFD with all the associated costs, delivery by an approved courier as some shops offer with airgun sales, or physically collecting face to face from the shop. As mail order is allowed I presume that airsoft guns aren’t legally classed as airguns. Rogerborg 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neptune Posted November 24 Share Posted November 24 On 22/11/2024 at 12:20, Rogerborg said: I'm baffled by why that would be. All that 57A says is: An “airsoft gun” is not to be regarded as a firearm for the purposes of this Act. Anything beyond that is inference and (absent case law) assumption, not explicit. Air weapons are firearms as they exceed the one joule limit, therefore airsoft guns are not air weapons, because they aren't firearms. As stated above by novioman, it's the reason why Section 31 & 32 of the VCR Act 2006 doesn't apply to airsoft guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EDcase Posted November 24 Share Posted November 24 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Neptune said: Air weapons are firearms as they exceed the one joule limit Air rifles up to 12ft/lb (16.25J) are allowed with no restrictions apart from being over 18. Its ironic that more dangerous toys are easily sold over the counter or even by specialist mail but our 1j toys need a registry. Airsoft has its own little caveat in the law. Edited November 24 by EDcase Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neptune Posted November 24 Share Posted November 24 (edited) Well the limit for airsoft is 1.3 joules (378fps w/ 0.2g) for auto, or 2.5 joules (518fps w/ 0.2g) for semi, but yes the VCR Act aspect of it makes no sense. Edited November 24 by Neptune Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Rogerborg Posted November 26 Supporters Share Posted November 26 On 24/11/2024 at 10:48, novioman said: Forgive me if this has been mentioned in an early post. If airsoft guns are legally airguns then mail order delivery wouldn’t be possible, it would have to be RFD transfer to RFD with all the associated costs, delivery by an approved courier as some shops offer with airgun sales, or physically collecting face to face from the shop. That's a great point. However... On 24/11/2024 at 10:48, novioman said: As mail order is allowed Perhaps better to say that nobody has yet prohibited it. On 24/11/2024 at 15:33, Neptune said: As stated above by novioman, it's the reason why Section 31 & 32 of the VCR Act 2006 doesn't apply to airsoft guns. Hasn't been applied, yet. I really, really hope that we don't get a test case for this, particularly in Scotland. Tommikka 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
novioman Posted November 26 Share Posted November 26 1 hour ago, Rogerborg said: That's a great point. However... Perhaps better to say that nobody has yet prohibited it. Hasn't been applied, yet. I really, really hope that we don't get a test case for this, particularly in Scotland. Let’s not get pessimistic, no reason why they should at the moment. Tommikka and Rogerborg 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommikka Posted November 26 Share Posted November 26 All ‘air weapons’ fall within firearms legislation, and this was the case when the VCRA was put into place and airsoft would at that time have sat in firearms legislation as ‘low power air weapons’ within the 6 and 13 ft lbs limit Subsequently compliant airsoft guns within joule limits have been specifically cleared of being firearms Paintball remains in firearms legislation, and Home Office guidance is being nice to pajntballers - as long as people aren’t dickheads with dodgy imports and/or dodgy projectiles. There are some very grey interpretations, focused on frangibility & lethality - which will (and has) put people in serious trouble with the use of other projectiles To date I am not aware of any issues with the need for RFDs (Except for various ‘issues’ experienced by the original Scottish paintball sites who had major legal problems and firearms prosecutions) The UKPSF keeps on the case to protect (responsible) paintballers and the legislation change on the definitions for airsoft covers airsoft There is always the danger of a politician getting uppity, and that has happened a lot in Scotland - but both airsoft and paintball have been doing well - including since before airsoft was airsoft Rogerborg 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neptune Posted November 26 Share Posted November 26 (edited) 6 hours ago, Rogerborg said: Hasn't been applied, yet. ...Because that's not the law, it's not as if the police and courts forgot to enforce it. Yes a blind judge could rule airsoft guns as air weapons and thus a firearm, in the same way they could rule that a sausage roll is a car and is subject to vehicle exercise duty. But in the absence of such hypotheticals becoming reality, airsoft guns are not air weapons. I should also point out that if Section 57A of the Firearms Act was somehow nullified and airsoft guns became air weapons, it would remove airsoft guns from Section 36 of VCR Act, because it doesn't apply to firearms. Meaning two tones would cease to exist and RIFs as we know them would actually become more prevalent to the general public. Edited November 26 by Neptune Rogerborg 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommikka Posted November 26 Share Posted November 26 57 minutes ago, Neptune said: ... I should also point out that if Section 57A of the Firearms Act was somehow nullified and airsoft guns became air weapons, it would remove airsoft guns from Section 36 of VCR Act, In which case the VCRA didn’t apply to airsoft for the decade of 2007 to 2017 before section 57a was produced, and there was no need for the statutory instrument to add the airsoft skirmisher defence 1 hour ago, Neptune said: ...because it doesn't apply to firearms.. I would have tended to agree as an airgun is a firearm and an airgun that looks like a ‘proper firearm’ couldn’t be both a firearm and an imitation firearm ….. but a case went to court and @Rogerborgwon the argument that we would be on opposing sides of with a gentleman’s agreement to agree to disagree But case law now says otherwise - a firearm can be an imitation firearm Licenced firearms are controlled via the licence and certificate processes Categories of firearms are available by other controls, such as low powered air weapons sold face to face / via RFDs, and other categories aren’t controlled other than self policing good practice by parts of the industry - such as paintball retailers that follow UKPSF recommended guidelines ….. and courtesy of the section 57a exemption a category of what would be low powered air weapons are not subject to controls but the industry has a potential liability under which retailers protect themselves as a collective under the UKARA and other similar schemes (or don’t protect themselves and take risks against personal high fines and loss of good faith in the industry with fake defences Rogerborg 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Rogerborg Posted November 26 Supporters Share Posted November 26 1 hour ago, Neptune said: Yes a blind judge could rule airsoft guns as air weapons and thus a firearm The problematical definition would be air weapons but not firearms. It would be a perverse interpretation given the definitions in FA 1968 Section 1(3)(b) , and the "air weapon / other firearm" in S19. The only thing giving me slight pause - and given the particular loathing for gun-shaped toys North of the border - is the meaning of "air weapon" in Section 1(4)(a) of the Air Weapons Licensing (Scotland) Act 2015. "an air weapon which is not a firearm (within the meaning of section 57(1) of the 1968 Act)" That refers to the 1J lethal barrel limit. This legislation was written before the Policing and Crime Act 2017 and so couldn't have referenced the S57A exemption for airsoft guns. But PCA 2017 didn't amend the Scottish legislation to say "57(1) or 57A", and neither has Holyrood now that 57A exists. Can Westminster legislation amend Scottish Acts? Don't know! But if I were working for the Procurator Fiscal (presumably after having traded my soul to Satan for a bag of Tangfastics), I'd bang the table and say "Ah hah! That clearly shows that Westminster-and-or-Holyrood meant to draw a distinction between <=1J airsoft guns, which are neither firearms not air weapons, and >1J airsoft guns which are not firearms but which are lethal barrelled air weapons for the purposes of the Scottish Act. Hang him, your honour! Hang him, then send him to Barlinnie!" It would be a preposterous thing to claim, and I present it as such. There would be no reasonable prospect of conviction unless you misrepresented the law and/or manipulated the evidence, which is exactly what the Scottish Fiscal has form for doing with airsoft guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neptune Posted November 27 Share Posted November 27 14 hours ago, Tommikka said: In which case the VCRA didn’t apply to airsoft for the decade of 2007 to 2017 before section 57a was produced, and there was no need for the statutory instrument to add the airsoft skirmisher defence It did apply, because Section 57 of Firearms Act (definition of a firearm) was amended in 2017 that would have encompassed airsoft guns, but they created Section 57a (airsoft exemption) at the same time, this was done using Policing and Crime Act 2017. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommikka Posted November 27 Share Posted November 27 2 hours ago, Neptune said: It did apply, because Section 57 of Firearms Act (definition of a firearm) was amended in 2017 that would have encompassed airsoft guns, but they created Section 57a (airsoft exemption) at the same time, this was done using Policing and Crime Act 2017. I know I was commenting on your claim that the VCRA would not apply to airsoft guns if section 57a was removed Airsoft guns were low powered air weapons, which were within the Firearms legislations scope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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