UKARA - yes I know it should be a banned topic….but

[1967PF44]

So I will never criticise anyone selling an Airsoft gun,  be it a Realistic Imitation or just an imitation, for taking care to ensure that the sale is only made to someone who intends to use it for one of the prescribed purposes that makes the sale lawful.

 

However in this world of grave concerns about your personal data, how do we feel about a retailer (with access to that database) providing information such as confirmation of current validity of UKARA to a private seller/one of their mates/site owner ? 
 

my personal view is that there is no doubt that would be an offence and a clear breach of the GDPR legislation. But do I care? Actually I think I do, as that database has my name, address, date of birth and personally sensitive information that I don’t want just anyone to be aware of. If they are accessing the database to share the info with any Tom, Dick and Harriet, then what else are they doing with my data.

 

Am I being over sensitive?  Or is this the world we live in, where we have to be much more careful.

 

Ater all there are many many’s to verify the legality of a sale before it’s made, open source research is easy, and offers the same protection. 
 

I have spoke to Uk prosecutors who have confirmed that simply asking the question “Are you over 18 and are you going to use this Airsoft gun only in a Skirmish, or for other associated and approved purposes”  is enough to satisfy the requirements of the statutory defence.   Being registered on UKARA only confirms that you were once a player, and does not reveal your intentions for the use of a particular RIF/IF

 

Thoughts ? 

[1st commando]

Retailers can only see name , site number and registered post code 

oh and whether it's in date 

[concretesnail]

As far as I'm aware the ukara only last 12months and then has to renewed by a site. I should be possible to for a retailer to see if that particular number is "active" or "dormant", then confirm either way for an enquiring party without having to divulge any details. 

So the ukara number should be the only information passed to the third party. Then you yourself would be giving the name and address to the seller for shipping. 

I believe that is how I should work, as the ukara is only there to facilitate distance selling. This is just how I understand it and and happy to be corrected/informed if it differs either way.

 

 

[1st commando]

you are correct the only check that is carried out is that it's active and the shipping name and post code match 

[1967PF44]

10 minutes ago, 1st commando said:

Retailers can only see name , site number and registered post code 

oh and whether it's in date 

Your right, although the database contains more information than that that someone must have access too.  in any case my UKARA status, (active/dormant) is deemed to be personally sensitive information under GDPR- which I have agreed by signing up to share with any “retailer” who is part of the scheme and whom I want to by an RIF from  - and no other party especially not private sellers 

[Rogerborg]

I'm struggling to see what the problem is.  The whole point of UKARA is to provide this information.  That's why we complete the forms.  I can't think what nefarious purpose name, address and DOB could be put to, nor what other "personally sensitive information" is in there.

 

 

24 minutes ago, 1967PF44 said:

I have spoke to Uk prosecutors

 

In the Fiscal?  The same prosecutors who fumbled this appalling prosecution of a chap who posted imaged of himself on Facebook, in a Facebook airsoft group, changing the charge when it became clear how badly they'd messed it up, and deliberately eliding exculpatory evidence, leading to an acquittal when they got caught?  Those prosecutors?

 

[1st commando]

1 minute ago, 1967PF44 said:

Your right, although the database contains more information than that that someone must have access too.  in any case my UKARA status, (active/dormant) is deemed to be personally sensitive information under GDPR- which I have agreed by signing up to share with any “retailer” who is part of the scheme and whom I want to by an RIF from  - and no other party especially not private sellers 

Ok so the only people who have access to the full info are the site you gave the details to and whoever enters that info onto the database for you or the  site .

Private sellers have NO access to any information other than "active" or "inactive " and the only way they could get even that info is by you giving out your UKARA registered membership number to them 

UKARA memberships are searchable by the membership number that only you have (and your site) . No one can just browse a list of members , you have to input that info to get the most basic of confirmation back out 

[1967PF44]

If you talking about the Denny case from several years ago, that was a shambles, caused not by the Fiscal actually, but not helped by their approach.   If we ever meet in person, assuming you are Scottish Skirmisher there is a chance of that at a skirmish, then speak to me and I’ll tell you the real story behind that 😉

3 minutes ago, 1st commando said:

Ok so the only people who have access to the full info are the site you gave the details to and whoever enters that info onto the database for you or the  site .

Private sellers have NO access to any information other than "active" or "inactive " and the only way they could get even that info is by you giving out your UKARA registered membership number to them 

UKARA memberships are searchable by the membership number that only you have (and your site) . No one can just browse a list of members , you have to input that info to get the most basic of confirmation back out 

Yes I understand that.   But private sellers can’t search the database? Or can they 

[1st commando]

1 minute ago, 1967PF44 said:

If you talking about the Denny case from several years ago, that was a shambles, caused not by the Fiscal actually, but not helped by their approach.   If we ever meet in person, assuming you are Scottish Skirmisher there is a chance of that at a skirmish, then speak to me and I’ll tell you the real story behind that 😉

Yes I understand that.   But private sellers can’t search the database? Or can they 

private sellers cannot "search" the database 

There did use to be a check page for private sellers where you could use a buyers membership number to get a simple "yes/no" to valid membership but i don't think it ever worked properly and tbh private sellers can use other methods . UKARA database was for retailers to be able to efficently check in a way that was authorised by the HO at the time the VCRA passed , Not a method for private sellers to access the information 

[novioman]

Most shops are not requiring UKARA now, the only retailer I know who won’t accept anything else is patrol base, I expect their are more, but that’s the only one I know of. 

[Rogerborg]

1 hour ago, 1967PF44 said:

If you talking about the Denny case from several years ago, that was a shambles, caused not by the Fiscal actually, but not helped by their approach.   If we ever meet in person, assuming you are Scottish Skirmisher there is a chance of that at a skirmish, then speak to me and I’ll tell you the real story behind that

 

The Grangemouth / Falkirk case, and it looks like Police Scotland made a whopping great mess out of it by thinking that an airsoft gun was a real firearm, then doubled down once the error was made and changed the charge to good old Section 127, as a "menacing" communication.  Since the case is done and dusted, is there a reason that you can't share the gossip here?

 

 

20 minutes ago, novioman said:

Most shops are not requiring UKARA now, the only retailer I know who won’t accept anything else is patrol base

 

https://www.patrolbase.co.uk/general-help-and-advice/what-is-a-ukara-or-airsoft-defence

 

UKARA 

+

Fully paid Halo Mill Membership + Played 3 Games (Evidenced)

British Airsoft Club (BAC)

SWAT PASS

Combat South

Re-enactment

TV / Production Theatre

Museum

Civil Service

[novioman]

As I said most shops except other defences now. 

A2 Supplies Ltd
AirSoft World (recommended)
Action Hobbies
BZ Tactical
Crawley Surplus Stores (recommended)
Defcon Airsoft
Fire Support (recommended)
High Pressure Airsoft 
JD Airsoft Ltd 
Just guns
Land Warrior Airsoft (recommended)
Socom Tactical (recommended)
Weekend Warrior
Wolf Armouries
Zero One Airsoft 

[Rogerborg]

16 minutes ago, novioman said:

As I said most shops except other defences now. 

 

Can't see where I was disagreeing.  I'm actually of the opinion that retailers have become too lax, given the apparent lack of policing of sales.

 

 

4 hours ago, novioman said:

the only retailer I know who won’t accept anything else is patrol base

 

That was my point: PatrolBase do accept things other than UKARA.  As they can and should.

 

They do seem to take providing them some sort of defence more seriously than other retailers, some of who sell and accept a completely bogus defence, and one which asks for a membership number, but then just lets you tick a box, as per this:

 

6 hours ago, 1967PF44 said:

“Are you over 18 and are you going to use this Airsoft gun only in a Skirmish, or for other associated and approved purposes”  is enough to satisfy the requirements of the statutory defence.

 

Something that I actually agree with, because the defence concerns itself with future intentions, not past actions.

 

 

6 hours ago, 1967PF44 said:

Being registered on UKARA only confirms that you were once a player, and does not reveal your intentions for the use of a particular RIF/IF

 

Yup.  My view is that if you have a game of airsoft booked for next weekend, that actually matches the "for the purposes of" defence more closely than what you might have done last Sunday.

 

The caveat to all of this is that our defence was granted on a whim that isn't explicit even in secondary legislation, but only in an explanatory note accompanying it, which could be amended or withdrawn at any time.

 

So while we all know that the current system is about as useful as a chocolate fireguard, it does sadden me to see airsoft retailers doing public end-runs around it with nonsense like "cosplay" defences, which just invites the banhammer to fall on us.

[Madhouse]

Seeing as we’re talking all things UKARA … when mine finally gets sorted can I use a different delivery address?

 

I tend to get stuff delivered to work as it’s easier to get it in under the radar of Mrs Madhouse 😉

[1st commando]

8 minutes ago, Madhouse said:

Seeing as we’re talking all things UKARA … when mine finally gets sorted can I use a different delivery address?

 

I tend to get stuff delivered to work as it’s easier to get it in under the radar of Mrs Madhouse 😉

while UKARA recommend retailers only send to the verified post code , most will ship to alternate addresses these days as long as the named recipient matches

[Tommikka]

7 hours ago, 1967PF44 said:

So I will never criticise anyone selling an Airsoft gun,  be it a Realistic Imitation or just an imitation, for taking care to ensure that the sale is only made to someone who intends to use it for one of the prescribed purposes that makes the sale lawful.

 

However in this world of grave concerns about your personal data, how do we feel about a retailer (with access to that database) providing information such as confirmation of current validity of UKARA to a private seller/one of their mates/site owner ? 
 

my personal view is that there is no doubt that would be an offence and a clear breach of the GDPR legislation. But do I care? Actually I think I do, as that database has my name, address, date of birth and personally sensitive information that I don’t want just anyone to be aware of. If they are accessing the database to share the info with any Tom, Dick and Harriet, then what else are they doing with my data.

 

Am I being over sensitive?  Or is this the world we live in, where we have to be much more careful.

 

Ater all there are many many’s to verify the legality of a sale before it’s made, open source research is easy, and offers the same protection. 
 

I have spoke to Uk prosecutors who have confirmed that simply asking the question “Are you over 18 and are you going to use this Airsoft gun only in a Skirmish, or for other associated and approved purposes”  is enough to satisfy the requirements of the statutory defence.   Being registered on UKARA only confirms that you were once a player, and does not reveal your intentions for the use of a particular RIF/IF

 

Thoughts ? 

 

The UKARAs GDPR policy does not say that data is collected/held solely for retail sales.

 

https://ukara.org.uk

 

Paragraphs 5,6&7 cover access to data.

 

5 covers the primary use for retailers to validate a sale

6 covers the Border Agency etc for validating imports

7 can cover validation of private sales 

 

 

5.The system is designed to allow retailer members of UKARA to verify the legal status of purchasers, to comply with the relevant section of the Violent Crime Reduction Act as related to Realistic Imitation Firearms.

6.The system can also be accessed on an individual look up basis by the UK Boarder Agency to allow player imports of RiFs & 24/7 Intelligence department, Hampshire Police also in reference to imports. All retained data is accessible to the administrator and programming technical staff.

7.Any other third-party access to data would only be permitted when the terms of the Data-Protection act have been for-filled for legal access requirements.

 

For GDPR data must be held and used for valid purposes, in the case of UKARA data it must be shared in an appropriate manner to validate sales. 
Arguably a UKARA registered member could complain that confirm/deny is not made for a private sale - eg I get registered, I try to buy a RIF in classifieds and give my number & postcode to the seller.  If the UKARA or site refused to acknowledge then I could complain under the GDPR that they are holding my details but not using it to validate my status 

[Tactical Pith Helmet]

[Rogerborg]

16 hours ago, Tommikka said:

Arguably a UKARA registered member could complain that confirm/deny is not made for a private sale - eg I get registered, I try to buy a RIF in classifieds and give my number & postcode to the seller.  If the UKARA or site refused to acknowledge then I could complain under the GDPR that they are holding my details but not using it to validate my status 

 

Maybe, although that's not one of the listed purposes, it's just vaguely implicit under section 7 because the potential buyer has given permission.

 

That's what's confusing me about OP's original question.  Who's looking up UKARA entries for random shits and giggles?  We've established that those with access need to provide a number, they can't just browser the database or search by details. In practice anybody accessing it will be doing so because a buyer has asked them to, directly or indirectly, and provided their number.

 

I'm genuinely puzzled as to where the problem is.

[1st commando]

1 hour ago, Rogerborg said:

 

 

 

I'm genuinely puzzled as to where the problem is.

Because the cost of tinfoil has gone up which has sent crusty types into a spiral on anything data related

[Jaylordofwaargh]

The defence though doesn't translate we easily for ukara. I for example have been to 5 sites in the last year and have a couple of games booked in in the next few months. But i am not eligible for ukara. 

Do I give my non existent ukara number to a Seller to "check I'm an airsofter" or do I just talk to the seller and say I don't go to the same site often enough to qualify.....

 

There are a couple of pistols I have missed out on due to MUST HAVE UKARA noted in ads, and yes I did contact seller....

 

Meh. Is ukara a walking, talking mess? Yes and many here could go into more detail as to why but, it is at least alive and does hinder (slightly) tools getting Airsoft guns....

[Rogerborg]

1 hour ago, Jaylordofwaargh said:

and does hinder (slightly) tools getting Airsoft guns

 

In the same sense that a chain-link fence will stop some BBs.  

[Sneaky]

I think UKARA and your data is better protected than any government institution….

 

And pretty much everyone has your data, bit late to the party now, scary as it is!

🤔