Ghillie suit wearers/snipers wearing team armbands around their ankles or hidden among their foliage. Cheating? Close to the limits? Tactical?

[Cannonfodder]

Well done on completely missing the point. You claimed you're not putting on your leg to hide the band but also say putting it on your arm will make you stick out so it goes on your leg. How is that not trying to hide it? 

Edited September 14, 2022 by Cannonfodder
Accidentally posted early

[Pseudotectonic]

If one day we have a perfect invisible tech (let's call it magic suit) anyone wearing the magic invisible suit will be fully expected to wear armbands at the very minimum, probably leg bands as well, if not just for safety and ID reasons.

I think the visible armband rule should be mandatory to all players to maintain fairness, if the guy in normal suits have to keep his armband visible (and not allowed to hide it), a ghillie should not enjoy any privilege to be able to remove or relocate or obscure their armband just because they choose to dress in leafs. I would even argue ghillies should have mandatory leg bands in addition to armbands as to allow prone position identification for friendlies.

If I decided to put my armband in my pocket just because I am dressed in some magical optical cloaking tech (therefore should be "fully invisible") they would have kicked me out of the site.

The thing is, this is ultimately a game, and any game needs some sort of balance for A. a fun experience for all and B. for the health of the hobby in general. By and large the real world counters to real snipers are not commonly practised in airsoft or have a much higher bar of entry than just paying £50 for a ghillie overall. This is also a game legally limited to 1J plastic bullets and the rules should be designed around the gameplay that emerge from it and I would say perfect invisibility should be ruled out. At the minimum team identification should be visible from any angle. Outside of the armbands, you can be as invisible as you want but keep the armbands visible.

Moreover if you wear a ghillie you should still need to make the armband (and leg band) visible even just for identification reasons alone. If someone has the rare skills to identify you from under the bush before you can shoot him but not able to tell you are friend or foe, they will be forced to either shoot you or ask you verbally which team you are on, which frankly both are merely workarounds of a problem that should not be allowed to take place in the first place. So this is as much as a class-privilege problem and a practical gameplay rule-set problem.

[BigBell1987]

@Pseudotectonic the whole speculative invisible tech is just a daft and proves that people are just being salty for the sake of being salty, making up extra ways to whine.

 

5 minutes ago, Pseudotectonic said:

if not just for safety

Bands for safety?

 

7 minutes ago, Pseudotectonic said:

maintain fairness

 

7 minutes ago, Pseudotectonic said:

I would even argue ghillies should have mandatory leg bands in addition to armbands as to allow prone position identification for friendlies.

Fairness soon went out the window!

More rules you bring in the more whiners whine.

Ghillies have to wear leg bands for when prone, well ok non Ghillies can't stay in cover that hides arms, on and on and on it would go, more whining than enjoying unless you enjoy whining in which case jobs a good one for some I guess.

 

13 minutes ago, Pseudotectonic said:

any game needs some sort of balance

Ghillies should use bolt action and pizzle and that's a good handicap at closer range.

 

15 minutes ago, Pseudotectonic said:

a fun experience for all

Agreed, so let them enjoy it their way.

 

16 minutes ago, Pseudotectonic said:

By and large the real world counters to real snipers are not commonly practised in airsoft or have a much higher bar of entry than just paying £50 for a ghillie overall

Id argue cheaper than Otacon Stealth Camo or selling your soul to the devil for that magic stuff you were on about.

 

24 minutes ago, Pseudotectonic said:

This is also a game legally limited to 1J plastic bullets and the rules should be designed around the gameplay that emerge from it and I would say perfect invisibility should be ruled out

That to me means that ranges are shorter than real life therefore Ghillies are less effective.

 

27 minutes ago, Pseudotectonic said:

So this is as much as a class-privilege problem and a practical gameplay rule-set problem.

It's not a problem if you don't make it one, you can have hi cap high rate of fire if you want and they can have low rate of fire high concealability. Who cares, enjoy it and when you find one before he finds you and you take his arse out it will taste so much sweeter.

[Tactical Pith Helmet]

1 hour ago, BigBell1987 said:

Bands for safety?

If you wear armbands on your ankle, you would float upside down.  You could drown!

[Pseudotectonic]

In some sites the sniper class already has their own category of joule limits and engagement distances however that is just for the rifle you choose. Ghillies can be worn by anyone so it does not belong in its own separate class of clothing, because there are no separate classes based on clothing like how the sniper rifle belong in a different class from normal rifles.

If wrapping myself in heavy gauge green cotton strings gives me the privilege to remove my armband or reposition it however I please I still wouldn't. Because A. that is an arbitrary exemption of a rule and B. it gives you a visibility privilege therefore is unfair to other players. Does not matter if you did or did not intent to conceal it, or if it is "relocated" for prone position ID or any other reason. The moment you remove or conceal it from the usual expected position i.e. on your arms, you are already generating an unfair visibility privilege. The armband is an agreed identification protocol that makes the game a game. If everyone wears it in one place and one of them wears it in another place, it becomes less legible therefore harder to identify therefore slower or impossible to react to therefore has real gameplay fairness implications.

If the rule is every player is required to wear the armband clearly, everyone should wear it clearly. There should be no exceptions.

If everyone is allowed to bend the rules however they enjoy (even if they enjoy it very very much), we wouldn't have a game at all because it would be impossible for marshals to enforce any rule.

And by the way if some magically invisible person is running around without visible armband and ankle band it becomes a massive collision or tripping risk. Two invisible magicians without armbands can knock each other out running their helmets full force unknowingly into each other and the worst of all is no one will notice and the tripping will pile up in that particular location.

[Cannonfodder]

2 hours ago, BigBell1987 said:

Agreed, so let them enjoy it their way.

 

But if one person, or a minority, is acting in a way that negatively affects everyone else's day shoud they be allowed to carry on? 

[BigBell1987]

30 minutes ago, Cannonfodder said:

But if one person, or a minority, is acting in a way that negatively affects everyone else's day should they be allowed to carry on?

I can't get my head around allowing that to affect my day in the first place to be honest.

[Pseudotectonic]

If we have a ghillie clothing class with their own rules to allow discretion removal or repositioning of armbands, like how sniper rifles have their own rules, surely for marshalling reasons they should just belong to the same class, as such you should only be allowed to wear ghillie if you use a sniper rifle and vice versa. If that is the case then I don't see the issue with different rules applying to ghillies. But in practice since everyone can wear a ghillie, or wear parts of a ghillie, that becomes the issue, because suddenly you have random people deciding not to wear the armband simply because they enjoy it, and it becomes impossible to marshal the game because the only way of team identification goes out the window.

So for management reasons any game sites should never allow discretion removal of armbands based on clothing. It should be based on the sniper rifle special rules. That is at least piggybacking on the existing rule-set and makes it a sniper rifle problem therefore completely eliminates the ghillie clothing from equation, which would make a whole lot more sense to me.

If we reframe the problem into "should sniper users who already play with different joule limit and engagement distances allowed to remove or reposition their armbands", that is a much more reasonable question or proposition than say, can someone remove their armband based on the amount of leafs they are wearing.

So in short this is actually a sniper rifle problem, and not at all related to the ghillie suit clothing.

[leadly]

8 hours ago, Pseudotectonic said:

In some sites the sniper class already has their own category of joule limits and engagement distances however that is just for the rifle you choose. Ghillies can be worn by anyone so it does not belong in its own separate class of clothing, because there are no separate classes based on clothing like how the sniper rifle belong in a different class from normal rifles.

If wrapping myself in heavy gauge green cotton strings gives me the privilege to remove my armband or reposition it however I please I still wouldn't. Because A. that is an arbitrary exemption of a rule and B. it gives you a visibility privilege therefore is unfair to other players. Does not matter if you did or did not intent to conceal it, or if it is "relocated" for prone position ID or any other reason. The moment you remove or conceal it from the usual expected position i.e. on your arms, you are already generating an unfair visibility privilege. The armband is an agreed identification protocol that makes the game a game. If everyone wears it in one place and one of them wears it in another place, it becomes less legible therefore harder to identify therefore slower or impossible to react to therefore has real gameplay fairness implications.

If the rule is every player is required to wear the armband clearly, everyone should wear it clearly. There should be no exceptions.

If everyone is allowed to bend the rules however they enjoy (even if they enjoy it very very much), we wouldn't have a game at all because it would be impossible for marshals to enforce any rule.

And by the way if some magically invisible person is running around without visible armband and ankle band it becomes a massive collision or tripping risk. Two invisible magicians without armbands can knock each other out running their helmets full force unknowingly into each other and the worst of all is no one will notice and the tripping will pile up in that particular location.

 

The last bit reminds me of a time me and another ghillie sniper were going for a stroll on an attempted flank, the chap tripped over a branch and hit the deck!

 

I started shouting for him and pretended I didn't know where he was, then when he stood up I was like "ah there you are". He didn't speak to me again 😂

10 hours ago, Cannonfodder said:

Well done on completely missing the point. You claimed you're not putting on your leg to hide the band but also say putting it on your arm will make you stick out so it goes on your leg. How is that not trying to hide it? 

 

The issue is that you see me wearing a band on my leg (or often a band on each leg) as hiding it and I don't. I'll still carry on doing it (IF THE SITE ALLOWS) and you'll still have an issue with it and that's fine.

 

Probably just best to agree to disagree.

[clumpyedge]

If you have been going to sites that allow you to wear an ARMband around your leg or ankle then that's fine, its their decision. Speaking from a marshaling perspective on the sites I have worked on my position is this. If I got a complaint about someone be it sniper or not generally someone will come to me and so "so and so on green team is doing this that and the other" if you are wearing that ARMband on your ankle and decide you want to do something knobbish or is perceived as being knobbish by the other team it doesn't leave much for someone to give a decent description or tell me what team you are on. This then forces the occasional scenario where EVERYONE wearing a ghillie that day has to be told off together as, as a marshal we cant get a positive ID.

 

My personal thoughts on it are this. Bollocks to how much you have spent on your suit, its a mute point. You are playing a team based game where by you are marked so the other team can positively identify you and shoot you. If you choose to hide that after a marshal has placed that on your arm because it ruins the aesthetic of the tree you are trying to emulate then you are cheating (if playing on a site that states you have to have it on show). If you are playing on a site that allows you to move it then again, their site, their rules. I will however say that I have been to sites that allow this and the amount of snipers that then bitch and moan all day about being lit up is a hell of a lot more than the one or two people on this thread who "accept" that risk - take one of mustangs recent video as case and point, constantly gets hit by his own team but if he were wearing the band on his arm, more than likely would have been less of a problem but then again they could have just had it out for him.

 

Not sure why but this whole thread takes me back to a day at copehill down when a sniper got very very salty and complained to the DS running the event that he'd spent in excess of £500 building and crafting his suit only to spend most of his weekend either dead waiting for a medic or having to leave it in the harbor area because a large number of people on the other team had either thermal scopes or helmet mounted thermal. Not the same situation but did make me LOL.

 

My post is not directed at anyone so no toy throwing please. Just my thoughts based off of posts already made.

Edited September 15, 2022 by clumpyedge

[leadly]

 

51 minutes ago, clumpyedge said:

If you have been going to sites that allow you to wear an ARMband around your leg or ankle then that's fine, its their decision. Speaking from a marshaling perspective on the sites I have worked on my position is this. If I got a complaint about someone be it sniper or not generally someone will come to me and so "so and so on green team is doing this that and the other" if you are wearing that ARMband on your ankle and decide you want to do something knobbish or is perceived as being knobbish by the other team it doesn't leave much for someone to give a decent description or tell me what team you are on. This then forces the occasional scenario where EVERYONE wearing a ghillie that day has to be told off together as, as a marshal we cant get a positive ID.

 

My personal thoughts on it are this. Bollocks to how much you have spent on your suit, its a mute point. You are playing a team based game where by you are marked so the other team can positively identify you and shoot you. If you choose to hide that after a marshal has placed that on your arm because it ruins the aesthetic of the tree you are trying to emulate then you are cheating (if playing on a site that states you have to have it on show). If you are playing on a site that allows you to move it then again, their site, their rules. I will however say that I have been to sites that allow this and the amount of snipers that then bitch and moan all day about being lit up is a hell of a lot more than the one or two people on this thread who "accept" that risk - take one of mustangs recent video as case and point, constantly gets hit by his own team but if he were wearing the band on his arm, more than likely would have been less of a problem but then again they could have just had it out for him.

 

Not sure why but this whole thread takes me back to a day at copehill down when a sniper got very very salty and complained to the DS running the event that he'd spent in excess of £500 building and crafting his suit only to spend most of his weekend either dead waiting for a medic or having to leave it in the harbor area because a large number of people on the other team had either thermal scopes or helmet mounted thermal. Not the same situation but did make me LOL.

 

My post is not directed at anyone so no toy throwing please. Just my thoughts based off of posts already made.

 

If there were more than one ghillie on a banded team (and they all have then on their arms) then the complaint just becomes "one of the ghillies with a band on his arm" so you still have to tell them all off anyway.

 

I've never moved my band from my arm to my leg. Like I've already started, I always ask if I can but If I can't then it's not a problem and it stays put.

 

Has anyone actually come across this ornis it just youtuber troll speculation?

 

And with regards to that Mustang video, im fairly certain that video was filmed at Phoenix. I've played there quite a few times and im 99% certain from memory that they won't let you wear a band / tape on your legs. Could be getting mixed up with somewhere else though. 

 

Last time I played there I may have accidentally not seen Mustangs hand in the air when he was walking back to the safe zone,😊.  I couldn't see much of him from the cover I was using and gave him a few rounds before seeing his hand 😂

Edited September 15, 2022 by leadly

[clumpyedge]

19 minutes ago, leadly said:

 

 

If there were more than one ghillie on a banded team (and they all have then on their arms) then the complaint just becomes "one of the ghillies with a band on his arm" so you still have to tell them all off anyway.

 

Not necessarily, some ghillies are darker than others, some use different guns, some use full face protection, some don't. There's generally more than one way to tell people apart even when wearing even if they are wearing Alan Titchmarshes perv curtains but yes generally its easier to have a word with all of a group rather than pick out an individual all depends how accurate the complainer is, more often than not its a shit description.

 

19 minutes ago, leadly said:

 

I've never moved my band from my arm to my leg. Like I've already started, I always ask if I can but If I can't then it's not a problem and it stays put.

 

Didn't say you did.

 

19 minutes ago, leadly said:

 

Has anyone actually come across this ornis it just youtuber troll speculation?

 

Numerous times people have tried this when I worked as a marshal, ended up taping their arm rather than giving them a nice velcro arm band. Seen a fair few instances while playing guess what happened... the marshals made them wear it on their arm and hovered over them majority of the day.

 

19 minutes ago, leadly said:

 

And with regards to that Mustang video, im fairly certain that video was filmed at Phoenix. I've played there quite a few times and im 99% certain from memory that they won't let you wear a band / tape on your legs. Could be getting mixed up with somewhere else though. 

 

It was at Phoenix from memory. I didn't see the band on his arm in the video I might have been mistaken but he usually does those self loving 360 spin videos and was fairly certain I didn't see it on his arm, may have been pre-game but I have been at games where he has been and have seen him put it round his ankle or leg.

 

19 minutes ago, leadly said:

 

Last time I played there I may have accidentally not seen Mustangs hand in the air when he was walking back to the safe zone,😊.  I couldn't see much of him from the cover I was using and gave him a few rounds before seeing his hand 😂

 

 

Edited September 15, 2022 by clumpyedge

[Rogerborg]

14 hours ago, BigBell1987 said:

whine whine whiners whinging whine whine whine 

 

Do mirrors reflect your image?  Ghillie suit or otherwise.

 

Well, from now on, you're going to be invisible to me.

[Oneshotscott]

Have not read the entire 3 pages but the answer is simple and should be universal. 

 

ALL PLAYERS IRRELEVANT OF ROLE SHOULD WEAR ARM BAND ON UPPER ARM SO THAT IT IS CLEARLY VISIBLE. 

 

 If "snipers" hide it on ankle area then they are simply shit at sniping and will be shot at by both teams as a result. 

 

Comes down to the sites to have any common sense to apply rules mind. 

[leadly]

I thought of you all today as the marshal was applying tape around my leg 😂😂

[Shamal]

6 hours ago, leadly said:

I thought of you all today as the marshal was applying tape around my leg 😂😂

That wasn't tape...it was a tracking tag lol 😉

[Pseudotectonic]

But for real how is the tape/armband supposed to go on something like a poncho? There is no arm to wrap around.

A horizontal strip near the shoulder?

 

[concretesnail]

18 minutes ago, Pseudotectonic said:

But for real how is the tape/armband supposed to go on something like a poncho? There is no arm to wrap around.

A horizontal strip near the shoulder?

 

Round the head, rambo style. 

[Tackle]

21 minutes ago, Pseudotectonic said:

But for real how is the tape/armband supposed to go on something like a poncho? There is no arm to wrap around.

A horizontal strip near the shoulder?

 

Easiest solution, if the player is not able to display his tape/armband where it should be (& is clearly visible), then it should be placed at the end of his forestock, as close to the muzzle as possible where it can't be covered by the players hand. 

 

[leadly]

3 hours ago, Tackle said:

Easiest solution, if the player is not able to display his tape/armband where it should be (& is clearly visible), then it should be placed at the end of his forestock, as close to the muzzle as possible where it can't be covered by the players hand. 

 

 

I honestly honestly read foreskin then 😂, not forestock. Man these night shifts are taking their toll on me!!

[Tackle]

20 minutes ago, leadly said:

 

I honestly honestly read foreskin then 😂, not forestock. Man these night shifts are taking their toll on me!!

Don't blame the night shifts you Dirty Birdy 🐧

[clumpyedge]

13 hours ago, Pseudotectonic said:

But for real how is the tape/armband supposed to go on something like a poncho? There is no arm to wrap around.

A horizontal strip near the shoulder?

 

 

Wrist.

 

In all the years I've been playing people have NEVER turned up like this to a game (that's not to say they don't but I certainly haven't seen it) I wore one once and as I say above the wrists seems to be the most sensible approach - I had both taped by the Marshal which I had no issues at all with.

 

I don't understand everyone wants to resemble a 70's porn stars mossy cleft than do anything even close to as interesting as the picture above because of the popularized swamp donkey gimp suit. Time and time again I notice that people seem to assume a ghillie is the must have for concealment when in actual fact airosfters are generally like a slightly dimmer version of a t-rex being that if you don't move chances are you wont get noticed if you have a decent solid colour or pattern on.

 

I miss CafeRacing (if you don't know him look him up on YouTube)

 

 

Edited September 20, 2022 by clumpyedge

[Impulse]

29 minutes ago, clumpyedge said:

 

Wrist.

 

In all the years I've been playing people have NEVER turned up like this to a game (that's not to say they don't but I certainly haven't seen it) I wore one once and as I say above the wrists seems to be the most sensible approach - I had both taped by the Marshal which I had no issues at all with.

 

I don't understand everyone wants to resemble a 70's porn stars mossy cleft than do anything even close to as interesting as the picture above because of the popularized swamp donkey gimp suit. Time and time again I notice that people seem to assume a ghillie is the must have for concealment when in actual fact airosfters are generally like a slightly dimmer version of a t-rex being that if you don't move chances are you wont get noticed if you have a decent solid colour or pattern on.

 

I miss CafeRacing (if you don't know him look him up on YouTube)

 

 

 

Wrists or lower forearm is generally what I do when wearing my cobra hood and I can attest to what you're saying here. All through the summer I wear OD trousers, a black t-shirt and a cobra hood that has had no crafting done to it whatsoever (it's just an evolution of the scrim net over boonie trick I used to do to break up silhouette) and I still have people walk right by me. Airsofters are pretty blind in general

 

I'm pretty adamant on the point that people should learn how to hide before investing in a ghillie. The best suit in the world won't make up for crappy fieldcraft and I relish in counter-sniping ghillies who don't know how to use it.

[spamofthejungle]

I think cheating might be a strong word for it, although it does seem borderline. I would definitely class any attempt to make your armband less visible as unsporting to say the least, to your own team and the opposition. Nobody wants to be that guy who lights up the friendly sniper who snuck into such a good position he's intermingled with the opposition, and that hesitation after spotting them can easily see you out of the game instead. Which to me feels unfair, if we came across a non-ghillie player wearing the band under their kit, we would call that out immediately, but for some reason some ghillie guys seem to think they're above the rules, everyone else, and fair play.

SOME ghillie guys, but that mentality, almost like they're the protagonist, and everyone else are NPCs whos experience is irrelevant, does seem to be more prevalent among our scrim wearing brethren. 

 

 

[Rogerborg]

15 hours ago, spamofthejungle said:

Nobody wants to be that guy who lights up the friendly sniper who snuck into such a good position he's intermingled with the opposition

 

I have come to be immensely relaxed about it.  Team-kill has kill right in the name.

 

That reminds me, I need to look into LED armbands for CQB over the winter.