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I’m framing this thread as an area for discussing general and site specific rules

It could follow on from recent discussions of representative bodies and standardisation.

 

The specifics of this one is what happens here between about 1:10 & 1:50

 

 

Apparently the person outside the window thinks they can claim an elimination - on the basis that they grunted a noise.

 

Can anyone explain how that grunt can be considered ‘surrender’?

 

 

Next - the fact that she had left the room before he grunted, unless perhaps her back was still passing through the door as we only have fish eye action cam footage.  So at best he grunted at an empty area of the room whilst catching a glimpse of her in peripheral vision


The surrender rule:

Whats your surrender rule?

 

I absolutely hate an absolute surrender rule.  It just produces arguments 

 

I am a great fan of rules for sneaky people (not cheats) and my version of ‘dont shoot eliminations’ comes in two parts

1) Surrender:

You ask someone to surrender, offering the opportunity to not shoot them.

They can accept or decline.
Accept and they walk (it could be a whole group that surrenders)

Decline and let the guns sort it out  

2) Tag / knife / rubber chicken / fluffy bunny etc:

You tap someone on the shoulder etc with your hand, a rubber knife or other object. You probably need to say or whisper ‘tag, you’re out, got you’ etc just to make it clear

This is an absolute elimination - and more importantly a quiet elimination. The victim should leave the area etc as normal.  It allows a sneaky person to get the benefit of having snuck around finding themselves outnumbered behind enemy lines 

 

 

Unless circumstances dictate there should not be a minimum engagement distance that enforces ‘surrender only within x metres’ 

It causes these arguments

 

(Just walk away people. As a Marshall I’m making decisions from what I see, and as an organiser of the games I’ve marshalled, probably every argument I’ve encountered fell into the “Have you read the event pack and did you listen to my brief?”)

 

 

Good reasons for an absolute minimum are for safety purposes such as a pure rental game or young players, and particular weapon/RIF types.

 

Proper ‘skirmishes’ should be an environment of ‘grown ups’. (I’m not restricting that to adults, but including reasonable younger ages)

Without being dickheads players should expect to be shot, dress appropriately if they don’t want to be shot on skin.

 

(I often like to play in a t shirt - that comes with awareness that a close up shot on my forearm is going to hurt more)

 

 

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havent watched the vid but afaik the americans tend to be bigger on their bang/surrender/mercy rules purely because they run higher fps where a lot of folks have some form of med.

 

personally i fall into the camp of bang rules being courtesy only- you get the drop on someone then you can choose to do the bang rule, if they accept then happy days, if they try some john wick shenanigans then light them up. if you pull a bang rule and the other guy can pull some john wick shenanigans and shoot you first then you weren't in a position to be giving out a bang kill in the first place.

 

i dislike both having them enforced or banned, as it's highly situational, for example if memory serves the last time i gave a bang kill i had the barrel of my makarov basically pressed against the guys shoulder, it would have been a dick move to just shoot him like that hence proferring the bang kill which he accepted. likewise i've had folk get the drop on me just pop a single round somewhere that doesn't hurt and i can get why they'd choose to do that and prevent arguments (even if i would have accepted the kill in that situation).

 

now granted i'm coming from an environment where med's aren't a thing, but my view on that is it's precisely why pistols exist and frankly if you want to play the marksmans role you really should be trying to avoid up close action to begin with.

 

knife kills are a different story- should absolutely be mandatory to take them (well, if we aren't bringing covid and social distancing into this) and if someone's had the skills to sneak up on you for a knife kill the least you can do is give them the courtesy of dying quietly, plus it'll make for some good theatre as you walk to respawn watching them take out your team.

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14 minutes ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

knife kills are a different story- should absolutely be mandatory to take them (well, if we aren't bringing covid and social distancing into this) and if someone's had the skills to sneak up on you for a knife kill the least you can do is give them the courtesy of dying quietly, plus it'll make for some good theatre as you walk to respawn watching them take out your team.

For the new normal post Covid should we be considering Lance kills as an alternative to knife kills?

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I don't offer surrender. If I have the drop on someone, it's one to the back with the mk23 or a tap with a rubber training knife and a whisper to let them know, regardless of whether they're a teenager or an adult; a single shot from a 1J gun isn't exactly life threatening, and I'm a sneaky sniper who doesn't want to risk them opening up with an AEG and alerting everyone to my presence. I've only had someone try to surrender kill me once, but they didn't notice I had the mk23 in hand and I just shot at them; they almost seemed surprised that I didn't take it, but they also didn't moan about it as it's within the rules to not accept surrender. They should've just shot me.

 

I think it's a good rule to have, as long as people realise that not everyone will offer it and not everyone will accept it. If I was in that kid's position and surrendered someone (assuming I for some reason just grunted instead of saying it loudly and clearly), I'd just shoot if they didn't accept it. At the end of the day, surrender is a courtesy, not a requirement. Knife kills are just like getting hit by a BB, though. If someone manages to sneak up behind you and give you the tap of death, you should quietly take it and head back to respawn.

 

I also don't think there should be MEDs for 1J guns, whether that's your rifle or pistol. I think bang rules shouldn't exist and if you have an MED you should transition to a gun without an MED if you're caught in that kind of situation; it's why I tend to move around with the mk23 out and the VSR slung on my back if I'm moving about the site, as if I do get into a scrap I'd rather be able to just raise the gun and shoot than take the time to transition and then start shooting. If you're in America running a 1.5J AEG with an MED, keep a 1J gun handy for close engagements. Sidearms are fantastic as they rarely go over 1J unless you actively try and push them to, and everyone can carry a pistol in a holster. The issue with the bang rule is you can say bang, they say bang, then people get into an argument over who said it first. Also, people try to bang kill from really far away sometimes, which is dumb.

 

When I first started airsoft back in the mid 2000s, there were a lot less rules about bang kills (they existed, but weren't universally used) and there was no such thing as a surrender. When I first started, I was about 14 years old too, so I don't really see it as a safety hazard to have close engagements for teenagers either; I was much more likely to injure myself on the rugby team than I was playing BB wars. At the risk of sounding like a terrible, old-fashioned, empathetically-challenged human being, I think the current generation needs to harden up a bit if they're getting into a hissy fit over getting shot by a 1J BB gun too close. Fortunately, a lot of the younger players at my local site aren't like that; they play harder than most of the older regulars and are a lot less scared of getting shot at than the 40 year old tacticool milsim dudes xD

Edited by Impulse
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1 hour ago, Tommikka said:

For the new normal post Covid should we be considering Lance kills as an alternative to knife kills?

 

speak for yourself, imma just mount the bayonet on the dragonuv.

 

social distancing thine filthy casuals :P

 

 

56 minutes ago, Impulse said:

I've only had someone try to surrender kill me once, but they didn't notice I had the mk23 in hand and I just shot at them

 

1 hour ago, Adolf Hamster said:

if you pull a bang rule and the other guy can pull some john wick shenanigans and shoot you first then you weren't in a position to be giving out a bang kill in the first place.

 

 

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I don't think there's any arguments about knife kills (other than current social distancing rules) there is literally no downside to it and ive never witnessed a kickoff about it.

Bang rules are difficult, you shoot a first timer from 6 inches away in the ribs then they aren't coming back.

Putting a round in a more experienced player webbing at point blank is fine.

 

Basically it comes down to be don't be a dick, bang rules are good in circumstances where its going to hurt like f#$k (almost any shot at under 1 foot to the back with no form of padding) but i would rather a rule allowing the back if a gun to function identically to a knife to remove debate from that.

If it's a small group then take a couple of steps back and then hose them down.

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thought occurrs, as we're discussing different game rules:

gun hits.....

 

there seems to be 3 options:

all gun hits count, so if you poke the end of your suppressor out of a window someone can bounce a round off it to tag you

the first gun hit doesn't count and you have to either swap to pistol, or walk if you don't have a pistol

guns are bulletproof

 

most sites i've played at tend to opt for the latter, although a mate of mine did get caught out by a wannabe novritsch type character who called him out because he was used to gun hits counting (even though on the site he was playing at the time they don't count).

 

whilst i like the middle option (gives pistols a bit more game time) i can get why most places go for the latter as it's a rule that can generate confusion.

 

likewise i can understand counting them from the point of view that a lot of "gun hits" wouldn't exactly save you if it were actual lead being slung downrange (but then if you're making that argument should armour plates not count?)

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Agree, airsofters can't be trusted to use surrender/bang. Besides there are too many variables....I witnessed someone with a broken gun run into a room quickly repeating "bang". He was shot by the time the second word came out of his mouth, yet claimed it didn't count as he'd already banged everyone, if you'll pardon the expression.

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3 hours ago, Cr0-Magnon said:

Agree, airsofters can't be trusted to use surrender/bang. Besides there are too many variables....I witnessed someone with a broken gun run into a room quickly repeating "bang". He was shot by the time the second word came out of his mouth, yet claimed it didn't count as he'd already banged everyone, if you'll pardon the expression.

That’s just bollox , unless he could have shot everyone in the room then even with the bang rule in use he more than likely couldn’t have taken out everyone in the room before getting hit him self .

 

that grunt was laughable it was so bad ! 

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6 hours ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 the least you can do is give them the courtesy of dying quietly

I don't die quietly for anyone!

I scream,shout,hurl excrement and curse the whole darn world.

I take the hit though lol.

🤭👍

Regards 

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32 minutes ago, Druid799 said:

That’s just bollox , unless he could have shot everyone in the room then even with the bang rule in use he more than likely couldn’t have taken out everyone in the room before getting hit him self .

 

that grunt was laughable it was so bad ! 

 

As I say, can't be trusted. Should only be for one on one situations when you've absolutely got the drop on someone.

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35 minutes ago, Shamal said:

I don't die quietly for anyone!

I scream,shout,hurl excrement and curse the whole darn world.

I take the hit though lol.

🤭👍

Regards 

I can assure you that if I’m screaming like a madman, waving my gun around and demanding surrender ...... that it’s highly likely to be empty 

 

Its worked a couple of times though 


 

(((Unless I come in making some speech about a lucky punk - in which case it might be empty or I’m tripping on adrenaline and the prospects of a customised revolver kill))

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I have still only been to a couple of different sites, however my views on this are very much influenced by one in particular, i am very aware of this bias and speaks volumes to the way that site was run.

Gun hits: They should count or not having a half way house is pay to win ( yes i know this is airsoft). As to the realism of gun hits disabling or what not i didn't learn these rules on a milsim.

 

the next few in my mind are three very different rules;

Knife/gun barrel/melee/dildo kills: should be taken quietly, respect the sneaky bastard that got you and die quietly. @Shamal not calling you out ( and i appreciate your posts are normally laced with humor), but making noise on a knife kill is, in my view not true to the spirit of the game. if someone has done the kindness of not popping you from less than a half a meter then i also think this should be respected. The rule always was mentioned as a knife in one hand gun in the other. 

 

surrender: this is an odd one for a couple of reasons, first it is very situational and could take an age to explain when and where it should be used in the brief, second, i have surrendered before, doing the sneaky thing and i was out sneaked, wasn't expecting contact so soon, i didn't have rifle anywhere near 'ready' and bumped into a sneak team coming the other way - when i stepped into a small clearing they all look at me and to save getting hosed (i would not have been the fastest draw) i just said 'fuck' and raised my hand taking the death instead of the bb storm that would have come my way. Third if you (@Mad-Al) less than a meter away then surely a surrender should be offered if you have the drop? Newer players (not counting those in /god mode) i feel would accept that. I have also found that it is not the younger ones that moan about close contact shots, they tend to be older/oPeRaToR types, the younger ones wear them with pride.

 

bang: just no. if you are that close just one shot to the center mass will do.  This one is back to the paintball days, too many times have i seen (paintball) marshals ask for a marker that has been used for a 'bang' kill an it has come out empty - their response was you cant bang if  you cant back it up. 

 

@Adolf Hamsterfuck me don't even start on the plates are armor and negate hits, or 'i'm wearing x weight plate it can take y no. hits from z projectile'. this is only something i have heard happening but i if i did hear it or specifically directed towards me (on a skirmish game where no such rule has even been thought of by marshals) i'd mag dump to drown out the whining... 

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I can appreciate the kindness factor of the bang rule but if I cant give them a tap on the head or a poke in the ribs with the supressor on my MK23 then i'd be much more happier to shoot them somewhere it wont hurt.

 

Playing as a sneaky sniper, I do like to wonder off by myself and get in some flanking positions, so i'd hate that effort to be ruined by someone being a dick and not accepting my bang attempt!

 

I'll be mooching about with my bushed up MTW as the weekend, so if in doubt, i'll make the ting go scrrrrrrrrrrrr.

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I personally like the Americans idea of a hand on the shoulder is a ‘knife kill’ and your out.

Or similar to when  someone suggest a barrel tap in the shoulder, works in the same way as far as I can see. If your close enough to do that then the opposition should be out imo. 
I amsaying this as I wouldn’t want to be shot from such a close range and would be happy to call myself out of someone was sneaky enough to get close to me but didn’t have a rubber knife for whatever reason.

 

Im also keen on the other American thing I have seen with a dummy grenade (trmr which doesn’t go bang or even a prop grenade) being dropped in a room and killing everyone.

mostly because I’m too tight to carry and use a load of paper pyro (even though i have just bought a box :D and loading the trmr after each use is a pain in the arse)

it’s just another simpler way for EVERYONE to partake not just those who can afford a grenade or lots of pyro

Edited by Albiscuit
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28 minutes ago, Albiscuit said:

I personally like the Americans idea of a hand on the shoulder is a ‘knife kill’ and your out.

Or similar to when  someone suggest a barrel tap in the shoulder, works in the same way as far as I can see. If your close enough to do that then the opposition should be out imo. 
I amsaying this as I wouldn’t want to be shot from such a close range and would be happy to call myself out of someone was sneaky enough to get close to me but didn’t have a rubber knife for whatever reason.

 

Im also keen on the other American thing I have seen with a dummy grenade (trmr which doesn’t go bang or even a prop grenade) being dropped in a room and killing everyone.

mostly because I’m too tight to carry and use a load of paper pyro (even though i have just bought a box :D and loading the trmr after each use is a pain in the arse)

it’s just another simpler way for EVERYONE to partake not just those who can afford a grenade or lots of pyro

 

A dumy grenade will definely be friendlier on the ears. I suppose it depends if everyone in the room notices the granade. Might load up my dump pouch with pine cones on monday and see how i get on :D

 

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dummy grenades i don't think should count like actual pyro, but that doesn't make them useless.

 

lob a dummy grenade (and the inventive things that can be used such as chocolate bars) then shoot them as they try to flee.

1 hour ago, Jaylordofwaargh said:

@Adolf Hamsterfuck me don't even start on the plates are armor and negate hits, or 'i'm wearing x weight plate it can take y no. hits from z projectile'. this is only something i have heard happening but i if i did hear it or specifically directed towards me (on a skirmish game where no such rule has even been thought of by marshals) i'd mag dump to drown out the whining... 

 

yeah it's the kind of rule that's best left for video games.

 

one of those rabit holes that if you started you couldn't get out of- if plate hits don't count do non-lethal grazing shots not count? what about lucky leaf bounces? etc etc.....

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1 hour ago, Jaylordofwaargh said:

I have still only been to a couple of different sites, however my views on this are very much influenced by one in particular, i am very aware of this bias and speaks volumes to the way that site was run.

Gun hits: They should count or not having a half way house is pay to win ( yes i know this is airsoft). As to the realism of gun hits disabling or what not i didn't learn these rules on a milsim.

 

the next few in my mind are three very different rules;

Knife/gun barrel/melee/dildo kills: should be taken quietly, respect the sneaky bastard that got you and die quietly. @Shamal not calling you out ( and i appreciate your posts are normally laced with humor), but making noise on a knife kill is, in my view not true to the spirit of the game. if someone has done the kindness of not popping you from less than a half a meter then i also think this should be respected. The rule always was mentioned as a knife in one hand gun in the other. 

 

surrender: this is an odd one for a couple of reasons, first it is very situational and could take an age to explain when and where it should be used in the brief, second, i have surrendered before, doing the sneaky thing and i was out sneaked, wasn't expecting contact so soon, i didn't have rifle anywhere near 'ready' and bumped into a sneak team coming the other way - when i stepped into a small clearing they all look at me and to save getting hosed (i would not have been the fastest draw) i just said 'fuck' and raised my hand taking the death instead of the bb storm that would have come my way. Third if you (@Mad-Al) less than a meter away then surely a surrender should be offered if you have the drop? Newer players (not counting those in /god mode) i feel would accept that. I have also found that it is not the younger ones that moan about close contact shots, they tend to be older/oPeRaToR types, the younger ones wear them with pride.

 

bang: just no. if you are that close just one shot to the center mass will do.  This one is back to the paintball days, too many times have i seen (paintball) marshals ask for a marker that has been used for a 'bang' kill an it has come out empty - their response was you cant bang if  you cant back it up. 

 

@Adolf Hamsterfuck me don't even start on the plates are armor and negate hits, or 'i'm wearing x weight plate it can take y no. hits from z projectile'. this is only something i have heard happening but i if i did hear it or specifically directed towards me (on a skirmish game where no such rule has even been thought of by marshals) i'd mag dump to drown out the whining... 

Yo @Jaylordofwaargh.

Points taken👍

You are right I do try to inject some humour into my posts and there are a couple of reasons for that. Firstly I have no real technical knowledge about airsoft guns,I just like to use them, and because of my inability to contribute anything of a technical nature and because I still want to bring something to the table,I use humour.

Second reason is because I try not to take things too seriously.

I love playing airsoft and I play it because I have fun and for me that is the point.You say about the "spirit of the game" does that mean that it has to be as close to real life as possible? Like they say,alls fair in love and war.

My idea of spirit is what I personally bring to the game and that's the operative word 'game'

During a normal days play there is much shouting. Banter,blaspheming and yes,screaming(in a manly way)but I have never been admonished for becoming vocal if I've been knife killed its how you do it.I would never scream out " Look out guys he's coming up behind you with a knife!"

I may cough loudly though. 😉

Regards 

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You call surrender/bang and they don't call hit, then you shoot. Simples. 

The call is a courtesy, But if it's not taken with the call of hit then it's still game on.

In her case, she didn't call hit, therefore he didn't kill her.

The call of surrender/bang is not the same as a knife kill, A tap with a rubber knife is a hit.

Every site has a slightly different take on the rule, I've never used it, and tend to shoot for the knackers instinctively.

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I think the main issue with the clip you referenced that the site is using "surrender kills" as a substitute for a "bang kill" but this is an American site so perhaps less said the better on that one. If we work on the assumption that the surrender kill must be taken at that site then logic dictates you have to have the target in your sights. The player in question clearly didn't and seemed to trying to use the "surrender" kill as a substitute for either a grenade or a blunderbuss (but even then I'm sure it would have missed as he was so far off target).

 

I'm yet to encounter "bang kills" or mandatory surrender kills on any site in the UK but I've been told they are out there. Personally I'd avoid such sites as the bang rule has a well established history of generating a considerable amount of conflict and frequently being abused.

 

The surrender option is meant to be just that, an option. Much like in real life it's up to you if you're going to surrender when given the chance or if you're going to play your hand in the hope of a win, just don't complain when you get shot. Personally I like the surrender rule and depending on the situation I will give the other play the option. By all means call me silly but I tend to look at the surrender rule as being good sportsmanship and showing respect to your fellow player, at least when it comes to the option of shooting someone at point blank.

 

Knife kills are another option and they certainly have their place in the hobby but in lieu of Covid this will no doubt have to change in the interest of social distancing. Admittedly it's somewhat satisfying whispering "knife" to someone when placing a hand on the shoulder while also often resulting in a "well played" after the brief drop of the head when on the receiving end.

 

As far as dummy grenades are concerned, I think they're best left out of it. At the end of the day these could/will just lead to arguments as from what I've seen there is little to nothing to actually indicate when one lands in the room with you unless it happens to be in your field of vision.

Edited by FreeFrag.UK
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4 minutes ago, FreeFrag.UK said:

As far as dummy grenades are concerned, I think they're best left out of it.

Some sites even go so far as to have a ban on running from grenades. So if one gets thrown at you - You take it. It stops people trying to turn and run, potentially causing accidents both to themselves and others. At the end of the day that person has just spend like £3 to kill you. If someone chucked a chocolate bar at me, I think the marshal would be getting it, And I'd be expecting him to share.

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19 hours ago, Tommikka said:

I’m framing this thread as an area for discussing general and site specific rules

It could follow on from recent discussions of representative bodies and standardisation.

 

The specifics of this one is what happens here between about 1:10 & 1:50

 

 


The surrender rule:

Whats your surrender rule?

 

I absolutely hate an absolute surrender rule.  It just produces arguments 

 

I am a great fan of rules for sneaky people (not cheats) and my version of ‘dont shoot eliminations’ comes in two parts

1) Surrender:

You ask someone to surrender, offering the opportunity to not shoot them.

They can accept or decline.
Accept and they walk (it could be a whole group that surrenders)

Decline and let the guns sort it out  

2) Tag / knife / rubber chicken / fluffy bunny etc:

You tap someone on the shoulder etc with your hand, a rubber knife or other object. You probably need to say or whisper ‘tag, you’re out, got you’ etc just to make it clear

This is an absolute elimination - and more importantly a quiet elimination. The victim should leave the area etc as normal.  It allows a sneaky person to get the benefit of having snuck around finding themselves outnumbered behind enemy lines 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is how my local site does it and it's how I think it should be. 

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Bang rules are dumb, too much ambiguity. If you're that worried about getting hurt run the site with a lower fps. There have been a few uk based cqb site I've played at that require a lower fps and semi only and some that didn't allow grenade use simply as they were in a highly urban area.

 

Surrender options. Fine. You call it and they have to option to take it, in the knowledge that of they don't they could be getting hit at the mich closer closer range.

Giving players that choice can make for some quite memorable moments, I know I've had few.

 

Dummy grenades. If it doesn't go off it does fire so it's a dud. I know I've used my bfg when it's not primed. Roll it in and when they are running for the exits follow it in and shoot them as they flee.

 

Knives. After covid we'll have to see how things go. But they should be allowed. It should be a silent option. A tap on the shoulder, a whispered knife kill, no hit call out, just take it and walk away, if someone has been sneaky enough to creep through then they should be able to continue that advance.

Edited by concretesnail
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8 hours ago, Shamal said:

My idea of spirit is what I personally bring to the game and that's the operative word 'game'

This is absolutely what I mean, it is a game, one based on 'honour'... I can get from choke point to respawn and back many times before endex is called, I play with more care when lives are in less supply.

If we were to play as close to real we would need to do the whole armour protects....which on a skirmish day is a no. 

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