Airsoft Governing Bodies

[GenuineGerman]

23 minutes ago, Druid799 said:

Think we’ve reached the “put up or shut up” point , general consensus seems to be we do need something now so me personally I’m going to start pushing UKAPU as my chosen option from now on so I’ve up’ed my membership from the free one to the gold membership to give them more funds . May not be the ‘perfect’ answer or solution but they’ve got an established organisation in place (They’ve been around since 2010 , in airsoft turns that’s bloody historic !) and if everyone joins then they’ve got the backing to OFFICIALLY represent us as a sport/recognisable hobby/leisure activity .

 

I have done the same and agree with you on this.

[Adolf Hamster]

11 hours ago, AlphaBear said:

It's not a question of a fiver or a tenner.... it's a question of whether any UK airsoft body is capable of making legal representations to the lawmakers in the UK. Without having that ability the body will hold no merit in political circles. 

 

kind of a vicious circle, a body won't have that power until enough people sign up to it, once they represent enough of the uk airsoft scene (not just players but sites and retailers too) then they'll have weight. which leads us to:

 

1 hour ago, Druid799 said:

Think we’ve reached the “put up or shut up” point , general consensus seems to be we do need something now so me personally I’m going to start pushing UKAPU as my chosen option from now on so I’ve up’ed my membership from the free one to the gold membership to give them more funds . May not be the ‘perfect’ answer or solution but they’ve got an established organisation in place (They’ve been around since 2010 , in airsoft turns that’s bloody historic !) and if everyone joins then they’ve got the backing to OFFICIALLY represent us as a sport/recognisable hobby/leisure activity .

 

it does seem they're the best option we have, and arguably better to bolster their ranks to get it moved in the right direction quicker.

[MiK]

11 hours ago, RebelScum said:

Just signed up.  You should rep for them, as that was a motivating post!  Plus I'm a sucker for a patch.

No worries matey, glad to have “repped” if it helps us in the long run

The patches are kinda nice too & the postage is included in the subs so I doubt they are making much of a profit from them at all.

[Iisjreg]

This is really interesting and I've been thinking about this a lot in the past few days and I've come to my own conclusion that a NGB is not necessary for airsoft.

 

It absolutely could be done, it's not rocket science. Parkour and Frisbee are established and recognised but then they've worked hard for that and really want to be seen as proper sports. Airsoft... doesn't really.

 

Firstly, and most importantly, is it an organised sport. Technically, yes, but it is, very much, a hobby first and a sport second.

 

Then there's necessity: we haven't had one and it's been fine. Why would one want a governing body and/or recognition by Sport England (or other national agency)? It seems this is mainly to 1) achieve consistency in national and international competition; 2) gain legitimacy for working with children and 3) secure lottery funding for "development". Competitive airsoft seems like a very small part of the hobby in the UK and I don't see any real international competitions and it's never going to be Olympic. Nobody seems that fussed about "bringing airsoft to the kids" (I know some people do try) and I don't think schools are very keen on guns 'n violence. Then, I don't see what funding would be used for if not for 1 or 2.

 

If the idea is to "lobby" government against new laws, then anybody can do that and organisations have previously been set up for that purpose. Plus, just because there is a governing body doesn't mean that the government would listen to them anyway.

 

Paintball is used to show what "could be" but ukpsf don't really seem up to the task either, no offence intended. I'd say they have more reason to be recognised but they're not quite there.

 

This seems like a bit of a storm in a teacup and has only come up because the temporary rules mean that we can't play with our toys just yet.

[Tommikka]

2 hours ago, AlphaBear said:

In my mind I can run a 4 minute mile. In reality it’s more like 15 minutes 😂

I can run a 4 minute mile

But not necessarily in 4 minutes

 

[Tommikka]

A pointer about the free memberships:

 

Free is nice. But free does nothing for them but getting numbers, for any official government body or sports England etc overlooking it doesn’t show ‘true’ committed members (UKARA is better on that front as it is people who have committed a level of playing and joined a site)

 

Delta Force (Tesco’s of paintball) attempted to make a claim with sports England by counting everyone who has played their rental sites calling them ‘members’ - they were laughed out. 

The UKPSF made a move to boost membership with a free option, it was a terrible struggle to get people to put their name on a piece of paper.  Either valuing it as nothing because it was free or wondering what the con was

It was known that sport England would not recognise free members, but the intent was to hook people and try to gain upgrades later. It’s only been in the last year with Covid that players have paid attention again.

 

(From the 90s the UKPSF was one man, it took him stating that he was going to step down in 2014 to make people realise that it was about to become nothing, and for the last few years it has had a true committee and is making slow progress)

 

Airsofts main action was probably 2006 & 2007 with the VCR bill/act, and is behind in those terms.  But airsoft players have not been able to just totally sit back due to the need for UKARA etc - so there’s a possible advantage there that may beat player apathy

 

If you can do so, sign up with a paid option.  The money is probably all

spent on the patches etc, or a tiny element remains - but it shows commitment from you to the game.

If they get a penny left over per person then that will eventually make a £1 and they can afford a phone call to government 

 

[Panama]

I just signed up with a free account to at least show my intent to UKAPU and I also have two sons (over 18) who both play and will recommend they do likewise.

 

As someone relatively new to the sport and to UKAPU it would be nice if someone (apologies if they already have I missed it) said that in principle, that they (UKAPU) would be willing to represent the sport as a governing body. I would happily up my membership to paid to help facilitate that happening and them having a true voice to represent us all.

Edited March 29, 2021 by Panama

[Druid799]

Me personally I’d rather not have a full blown governing body overseeing airsoft , but I now realise we do need a visible national ‘organisation’ (nothing to do with this ‘open/not open sites debacle , think this has just galvanized the discussion)representing us to the Gov/local Gov/local councils/etc hence I’m now fully supporting UKAPU , as I said earlier ATB definitely has its place(representing the people who make a living from the sport) but I don’t want them to have overall control as I genuinely believe it’s not in my or my fellow players best interest to have that happen . Where as UKAPU is a player based organisation so one would think they’d be out to safeguard the players best interests over fiscal interests like ATB would be ? 

[Adolf Hamster]

3 hours ago, Iisjreg said:

Firstly, and most importantly, is it an organised sport. Technically, yes, but it is, very much, a hobby first and a sport second.

 

tbh i'd say airsoft is as deserving of being called a sport as any other shooting sport, sure you could argue that it relies on equipment but then so does motorsport.

 

it can be both a hobby and a sport, but the main thing is regardless of which it is there still needs to be representation.

 

3 hours ago, Iisjreg said:

This seems like a bit of a storm in a teacup and has only come up because the temporary rules mean that we can't play with our toys just yet.

 

i think druid summed it up perfectly:

9 minutes ago, Druid799 said:

this has just galvanized the discussion)representing us to the Gov/local Gov/local councils/etc

 

at the moment it's just a few weeks stuck indoors (well, for you lucky buggers on the mainland at least), but there are other issues for our hobby, everything from the small scale confiscation of individual parcels as @Asomodai has had to deal with, through to fighting the next wave of "ermegerd bern erll der gernz" movement which is an ever present problem for any hobby involving gun-shaped objects.

 

3 hours ago, Iisjreg said:

Then there's necessity: we haven't had one and it's been fine. Why would one want a governing body and/or recognition by Sport England (or other national agency)? It seems this is mainly to 1) achieve consistency in national and international competition; 2) gain legitimacy for working with children and 3) secure lottery funding for "development". Competitive airsoft seems like a very small part of the hobby in the UK and I don't see any real international competitions and it's never going to be Olympic. Nobody seems that fussed about "bringing airsoft to the kids" (I know some people do try) and I don't think schools are very keen on guns 'n violence. Then, I don't see what funding would be used for if not for 1 or 2.

 

we haven't really had one because initially it's a grassroots industry, which is great for ease of access and initial growth, but as has been discussed makes for instability and has issues where site quality is basically luck of the draw.

 

not sure about the lottery argument, i suppose it would be nice to reach a level of recognition where such things can happen but it's not what's motivating me into wanting some oversight.

 

in the long run a well established governing body can set standards such as chrono practice, fps limits (where applicable, such as where dmr's are in relation to rifles/basr's, or lower cqb limits etc), ratio of players to marshals, training for site staff, standardized game rules, how to deal with rule breakers, it could negotiate bulk insurance deals, organize larger events, get involved in larger scale charity work, manage PR and fight both the big and small legal battles.

 

that's in the future of course, rome wasn't built in a day and all that, but i'd rather we were dictated terms by a governing body that we had some input for than be ripped apart the next time a politician with an axe to grind reads about little timmy who took his 2-tone justbbgunz special into school and decides to drop the banhammer.

[MiK]

I would also say that the “two-tone” for non defence sales also needs tightened/looked at - all it takes is another 12yr old being given/getting hold of a pistol and being raided by the police like last year or the lad stopped in Brum a few years back, this will do so much damage to anything that is tried to make Airsoft legit.

I’m not pointing fingers at the vendors to be at fault but parents also need educating more at point of sale/be held responsible when they buy their “innocent little angel” a two-tone or allow one to be brought into their household.

I am a realist and I know bad things could happen if someone picks up a rif who isn’t meant to but not having a “body” who will speak on our behalf or for the rights of the sport things like everyone has mentioned in this thread or another pandemic and us not being counted as a sport will only keep repeating.

Edited March 29, 2021 by MiK

[Nick G]

6 hours ago, GenuineGerman said:

I have done the same and agree with you on this.

Likewise, upgraded my membership earlier.

 

Nick

[MiK]

Oh, I will add about the UKAPU patches they seem to send out in batches and you might have to chase them up on it on failbook (I don’t have a failbook account that I use so I got the boss to use hers to chase them up ).

[Asomodai]

13 minutes ago, MiK said:

Oh, I will add about the UKAPU patches they seem to send out in batches and you might have to chase them up on it on failbook (I don’t have a failbook account that I use so I got the boss to use hers to chase them up ).

Nowt much difference to this place then! 

[Druid799]

1 hour ago, MiK said:

I would also say that the “two-tone” for non defence sales also needs tightened/looked at - all it takes is another 12yr old being given/getting hold of a pistol and being raided by the police like last year or the lad stopped in Brum a few years back, this will do so much damage to anything that is tried to make Airsoft legit.

I’ve never hidden the fact I’ve always been against two-tones , I feel there just a ‘backdoor’ way to sell RIFs . When the VCR bill came in to effect the same retailers who were pushing the UKARA scheme and trying to gain control of all retail sales are the same ones who then came up with Two-tones to circumvent it ! 

[Shamal]

20 hours ago, Asomodai said:

 

Many people know my opinion in the need for a bonified license, which would only come with a governing body and recognition as a valid hobby/sport.

 

However some people don't want this recognition because people don't like change and oversight. It works for them right now, so why change? The answer is, Airsoft has been in or around part of this grey area of legality and acceptability for a very long time, which cant last forever. Are we allowed to continue, be visible and be legitimate, or not be legal and become underground? The risk of trying to find out once and for all is that we might get the wrong answer. But I think it's something we really have to deal with as Airsofters and get a definitive answer. If we come out of the gate wanting to become legitimate, it would give us an advantage in negotiations, rather then skulking around in the shadows waiting for an "incident" to bring the problem to us completely unprepared to deal with it.

 

I support some form of recognition and legitimate representation, as it would help legitimise Airsoft in the eyes of lawmakers and set us apart from the idiots with RIF's in public that you find in the newspapers.

 

Airsoft itself may come across a bigger (Unspecified) threat in the very near future which if we had representation in place, could help fight off whatever it is more effectively; rather then scramble around at the last minute fighting amongst ourselves to organise. If we have no representation in place to already deal with an (unspecified) threat, we would in a far worse position to defend Airsoft. 

 

Airsoft is already or will become political for those outside of the hobby, we need to acquire the tools to negotiate, defend and come out the other side as a legitimate sport or hobby. It might mean it would be harder to get into the sport as a new player, it might mean paying a regular yearly fee and as a result might mean less money flowing to retailers, but at least it will save the hobby as a whole which is far more important. 

 

Bottom line. I don't mind paying more money to help safeguard what we do. 

Are we not already a legitimate sport/hobby? And i think it is legal.you make it sound like its not. Ukapu is working all the time to defend and protect us. They have a proven record of fighting and winning moves to impose sanctions on our activities.

I can see that with a governing body more and more rules and regulations will creep in.Your whole life history will be under the microscope before you get your official photo airsoft player id card.lol

The briefing times will increase as well.20 mins site rules and 20 mins gov bod rules. Lol

🙂👍

Regards 

[Adolf Hamster]

8 minutes ago, Shamal said:

I can see that with a governing body more and more rules and regulations will creep in.

 

i'd rather a governing body with some accountability to airsoft were setting the rules than some pencil pusher in parliment with an axe to grind against all things gun-shaped.

 

10 minutes ago, Shamal said:

The briefing times will increase as well.20 mins site rules and 20 mins gov bod rules. Lol

 

not really, if the governing body is setting rules it'll be stuff the sites will merge in, if anything it'll be the opposite because folk will be used to the standard ruleset so it won't need explaining in minute detail at every site because people will know the score.

[Tactical Pith Helmet]

6 hours ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

i'd rather a governing body with some accountability to airsoft were setting the rules than some pencil pusher in parliment with an axe to grind against all things gun-shaped.

 

 

not really, if the governing body is setting rules it'll be stuff the sites will merge in, if anything it'll be the opposite because folk will be used to the standard ruleset so it won't need explaining in minute detail at every site because people will know the score.

Exactly this!!!

 

The safety brief for a real steel site takes about 5 mins; why?  The safety brief is NRA standard.  The same could happen in airsoft.

 

If we really got our act together we could link up with BASC and add our membership of however many to their 130K members and get real clout.  They have media trained spokespersons, ex-parliamentarians, and professional PR people to hand. 

 

If we don't regulate ourselves, some other fucker will, and they may do so with some high profile media event behind them.  

[Cannonfodder]

Some very good points made here. 

 

With the way various parts of the shooting community have tried to throw other groups under the bus to save their own slice of the pie, I think we would be better off with a separate body to represent airsoft (IIRC the BASC did exactly that when the vcra was being discussed) 

[Guest]

My response is always, if you think there should be a governing body/group in charge, don’t sit back.

 

Grow some balls, set it up yourself, get involved.

 

Otherwise, you may as well be the mouse saying the cat should have a bell on its collar. It’s all rhetoric until you do something yourself.

[Adolf Hamster]

5 hours ago, rocketdogbert said:

My response is always, if you think there should be a governing body/group in charge, don’t sit back.

 

Grow some balls, set it up yourself, get involved.

 

Otherwise, you may as well be the mouse saying the cat should have a bell on its collar. It’s all rhetoric until you do something yourself.

 

this is a fair point, i'll confess to not planning on doing it myself for various reasons that ultimately boil down to excuses.

 

so i'm pretty much exactly the mouse (well hamster) wishing the cat would have a bell on its collar.

 

in my defence, i do have a cat, tried to get him to wear a collar, and he refused by repeatedly removing collars, which feels like a parable for how me trying to do anything political will end up