Bad Publicity?

[Spartan09]

2 hours ago, kasaran said:

 If you really want to just 'own a gun' then i believe shooting clubs are the way to go.  but from what i have been told, the gun is stored in a non firing way at the club itself and not taken home.  though correct me on that if im wrong?

Not exactly...

 

If you have your firearms certificate and the appropriate security, then you can keep your firearms lockes at your house.

 

Only exceptions to that (for firearms) are Section 7 (pistols) and section 5 firearms that are otherwise illegal (such as machine guns...  which can only be held by people that have been thrloroughly vetted by the home office)

 

So if i were to have my section 1 FAC, and own, for example, a lee enfield, then i can keep it at my house in an appropriate gun safe, and with the ammo locked away seperatly.  I can then take it to a shooting range, sign it in to say its being used there (along with any extra checks that may be required by the gun range themselves), and at the end of the day take it home again and lock it away.

 

As long as the gun is kept in a case during transport, and the ammo kept in a seperate case, there is no issue in carrying it to the gun range to use.

[jsmithski]

18 hours ago, kasaran said:

 

So the percentage of gun deaths out of recorded offences 0.34% that is how many result in one loss of life

 

Knife deaths account of 0.55% or knife related offences.    

 

and by those stats you are 4.88 times more likely to be victim of a knife crime. Makes sense when you consider availability. 

 

But with the gun offences being so much fewer, it is only slightly less likely to be fatal (0.21%).

 

Shows how much more effective guns are at killing people.  But then that is their only purpose.  

 

Your using  the logic that you feel the gun man is going to miss.  Is that something you want to bet your life on? 

 

Personally as i said previously.  You have a chance to out run or fight back with a knife man.  And for practicl purposes.  Its only the people with a meter of the knife man at risk.  Not everyone within 50 metres etc  thats just my view on it.  See my earlier reference to the isis knife attacks in london a couple years back.

I need to comment on that, I’m sorry. 
 

1. You assume when people get guns they become murderers. Because for criminals it does not make any difference if guns are legal or not, easily available or not - they have them anyway.

 

2. You can’t fight back a man with a knife. I’m sorry but this is BS. Ever been to a knife fight? I wish I could show you how knife fight ends for someone unarmed, even mma fighters, police officers etc.

[kasaran]

11 minutes ago, jsmithski said:

I need to comment on that, I’m sorry. 
 

1. You assume when people get guns they become murderers. Because for criminals it does not make any difference if guns are legal or not, easily available or not - they have them anyway.

 

2. You can’t fight back a man with a knife. I’m sorry but this is BS. Ever been to a knife fight? I wish I could show you how knife fight ends for someone unarmed, even mma fighters, police officers etc.

1. where do i assume that? my point is that the death rate for attacks of the sort would increase massively, as the used weapons severity is higher. 

 

But as you bring it up i reckon such altications would increase.  imagine throwing an gun into all those occasions where conflict occurs and neither party feel they can physically best the other?   how likely would one or both parties brandish said arm as the ultimate trump card?  Secondly, im sure more people would be capable make the snap decission to shoot someone from a distance at a moment of stress (even a relatively short one) than would get right into their face to stab them.

 

2. maybe not fight but you could definately run, or barricade a door as you cant stab through doors...  as for fighting, yes, you would have a major disadvantage.  but then you could arm yourself with a stick, narwhale tusk , chair or whatever. improvised weapons can work in knife fights, anything that stops them from closing the gap to you.  could you do that with a guy armed with a gun? no, it would be that indianna jones scene, but less comical.

[Druid799]

4 minutes ago, kasaran said:

imagine throwing an gun into all those occasions where conflict occurs and neither party feel they can physically best the other?   how likely would one or both parties brandish said arm as the ultimate trump card?  

Think it’s safe to say we ALL know one if not more people that on paper would very successfully pass the check’s to have what ever but equally we also know they’d be swanning around with a permanent hard on due to the fact they DO have a gun , and more than likely brandish it in a confrontation ?

[jsmithski]

46 minutes ago, Druid799 said:

Think it’s safe to say we ALL know one if not more people that on paper would very successfully pass the check’s to have what ever but equally we also know they’d be swanning around with a permanent hard on due to the fact they DO have a gun , and more than likely brandish it in a confrontation ?

I’m not that sure about that, let me give you an example. In Poland black powder guns are completely legal and don’t require you to even register them with the police (unlike modern firearms which require you to obtain a permit, pass medical exams etc). So I can now go to a store, buy a black powder revolver, some 10mm lead bullets, black powder, primers and (what is also legal) walk around the city with my revolver on me. Guess what. Since 2009 iirc when that law has been passed only one person has been shot using black powder rifle. One. Your arguments are invalid.

1 hour ago, kasaran said:

1. where do i assume that? my point is that the death rate for attacks of the sort would increase massively, as the used weapons severity is higher. 

IDK, maybe it’s Britain-related. You guys need check where those knife attacks are coming from, we don’t have a knife-killing pandemic over here.

[Stratton Oakmont]

1 hour ago, kasaran said:

 

2. maybe not fight but you could definately run, or barricade a door as you cant stab through doors...  as for fighting, yes, you would have a major disadvantage.  but then you could arm yourself with a stick, narwhale tusk , chair or whatever. improvised weapons can work in knife fights, anything that stops them from closing the gap to you.  could you do that with a guy armed with a gun? no, it would be that indianna jones scene, but less comical.

Close the gap, get back, attack!!!!

“Goddam right I’m a real instructor, I’m a real good one!”

[jsmithski]

14 minutes ago, osteoshot said:

Close the gap, get back, attack!!!!

“Goddam right I’m a real instructor, I’m a real good one!”

I would only add that it’s probably much more feasible to have a concealed small 9mm pistol than walking around with a hammer or axe. But that’s just me.

[GenuineGerman]

31 minutes ago, jsmithski said:

I would only add that it’s probably much more feasible to have a concealed small 9mm pistol than walking around with a hammer or axe. But that’s just me.

It’s also very easy to conceal a clasp knife or a small kitchen knife 

[jsmithski]

9 minutes ago, GenuineGerman said:

It’s also very easy to conceal a clasp knife or a small kitchen knife 

Sure, but a knife requires a bit more skills than a handgun and is very poor as a personal protection device. Remember about the physical advantage, you won’t scare a 120kg thug by brandishing a knife.

[kasaran]

1 hour ago, jsmithski said:

I’m not that sure about that, let me give you an example. In Poland black powder guns are completely legal and don’t require you to even register them with the police (unlike modern firearms which require you to obtain a permit, pass medical exams etc). So I can now go to a store, buy a black powder revolver, some 10mm lead bullets, black powder, primers and (what is also legal) walk around the city with my revolver on me. Guess what. Since 2009 iirc when that law has been passed only one person has been shot using black powder rifle. One. Your arguments are invalid.

IDK, maybe it’s Britain-related. You guys need check where those knife attacks are coming from, we don’t have a knife-killing pandemic over here.

ok, i like finding stats.  first off https://www.statista.com/statistics/1120240/poland-recorded-and-detected-crimes/  has a lovely quote: The number of recorded crimes in Poland in the years 1999 - 2019 showed a downward trend, from over one million in 1999 to 507.2 thousand in 2019. At the same time, the number of detected crimes has just decreased over the years.

 

thats the same everywhere,  not everything gets reported. But it is interesting the researcher felt a need to highlight it (perhaps a certain ranking lower down is why?).  gun crime generally does get reported, its hard to hide gun wounds.  and a quick google describes: May 2019 when a student wounded two people using an unlicensed black powder firearm and some fireworks. 

 

im guessing thats what you are refering to?  with black powder stuff, i guess its just not so popular, not cool or snappy.  can imagine a wanna be gang man puling out his antique gun and being ridiculed as a wanna be pirate or cowboy.  but quick internet search does show a suprising lack of reporting (unless the countless polish sites that i couldnt read had evidence to the contarary?)

 

Now this ones interesting, sadly 2002 statistics (so before the recent relaxation in laws)  https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Crime/Murders-with-firearms

Poland ranked 18th with 111 people murdered using fire arms. UK?, joint 39th (with denmark) with  14.

 

lets have some more:  https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/nov/30/new-york-crime-free-day-deadliest-cities-worldwide

Warsaw with an official population statistic of 1.8 million is around four times smaller in terms of population and three times smaller in terms of area than London BUT it has a higher murder rate. 

London 1.6 people per 100,000 Warsaw 1.9 per 100,000  (interestingly glasgow has 3.3...)

 

so dont go making out that Poland is some law abiding beacon.  remember Poland is joint 45th on the corruption rankings by transparency.org  with the UK 11th,  perhaps bad publicity like knife crimes get hushed by the government so eager to attack womans rights, gay rights etc

 

did find this graph for Uk gun crime from https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-7654/ 

 

im guessing other would be the home made bodge jobs or your muskets.  20% imitation? UKARA hard at work there.  the country map does correlate with @GenuineGerman , like london, birmingham is a hot spot as opposed to my paler cambridgeshire

 

 

@GenuineGerman said hope in human nature a while ago... how about hoping that you wont need a weapon to go about your daily life? i feel its a sad state to be in.  to feel the need to always be armed just to be safe

[rj1986]

Page 1: Someone anti-KM is trying to petition 1j limits

 

Page 7: a discussion that a small 9mm Handgun is better than a narwhal tusk for self defence

[Lozart]

3 hours ago, GenuineGerman said:

im not specifically talking about soviet or Russians what im saying is the the SED in East German decided they did think people were going to come back to East Germany after taking a trip to the west so they decided to build a massive wall, man it with armed guards .just to err on the side of caution. To me erring on the side of caution is totally undemocratic and criminalises whole populations.

 

 

 

To be fair 3.5 million people defected to the west before they built the wall (or "Anti-Fascist Protection Rampart" to give it it's GDR name).

[Dogsbody100]

3 hours ago, Tommikka said:

And another good guy with a gun, school armed security who ran away when the reason he had a gun occurred:

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-48521988
 

 

Better results have occurred when we have good guys with a Narwhal tusk and fire extinguisher, or good guys with harsh words:

“Don’t come here” or  “You ain’t no Muslim, bruv”

 

https://youtu.be/7gMJBQoHJ4E

 

 

 

 

Somewhere out there is footage of experiments of ‘good guy with gun’ scenarios, they mostly resulted in more casualty’s

 

Having a gun in the right place at the right time is one thing, you need to be able to use it properly in a stressful situation. 

 

Granted the security guy who did a runner was a dick and could have done more, he may as well have not been there at all. 
 

I don’t think he counts as an example for that reason.

 

Then at the end of the scale entirely is those guys armed with tusks and fire extinguishers, those guys need Victoria crosses!! Again, the argument still stands, what would that piece of shit murdering terrorist have done were they not there? We’ll never know but he’d have had one less thing to worry about.

 

That brings me on to your other point, that interveners cause more casualties, could be but as above we won’t ever know, certainly again the perpetrator would have one less distraction.

 

If I was one of these assholes shooting somewhere up I’d be thinking twice if I knew someone there also had a gun! 

[Tackle]

Not entirely sure why you guys are still debating the pro's & cons of UK firearms ownership, ain't ever gonna happen, will only get worse in fact in the case of law abiding citizens who would be prepared to go to the aid of others in the event of the kind of emergency situation being discussed.

Will that concern criminals or lunatics though ?........ 

Don't be silly, those intent on doing harm will always succeed, in much the same way that is Airsofters are the pretty much the only people affected by the vcra.

[Stratton Oakmont]

7 minutes ago, Lozart said:

 

To be fair 3.5 million people defected to the west before they built the wall (or "Anti-Fascist Protection Rampart" to give it it's GDR name).

And all the guns and ammo they had couldn’t stop the mighty ‘Hoff’ from singing that wall right down to rubble.

[GenuineGerman]

55 minutes ago, kasaran said:

@GenuineGerman said hope in human nature a while ago... how about hoping that you wont need a weapon to go about your daily life? i feel its a sad state to be in.  to feel the need to always be armed just to be safe

I don't think I've said that i think we should all be walking around carrying guns just in case. My argument was that we should be allowed to apply to have any weapon. If its come across like that i apologise and would like to clarify that position. I completely agree with your point it would be very sad if you had to carry a weapon around with you just to feel safe.

 

There will always be an element of society that can't abide by the rules and will break laws be it knives, guns, drugs, fraud. Buy heroin you are funding Islamic extremism, buy cocaine you fund the cartels. Where does it stop The reality is its all of big shitty chain of horrible people. But i still have faith in human nature because the good outnumber the bad . And you can't treat good people like they are bad.

16 minutes ago, Lozart said:

 

To be fair 3.5 million people defected to the west before they built the wall (or "Anti-Fascist Protection Rampart" to give it it's GDR name).

They did and the SED shat themselves and decided just in case anyone else wants to leave we are going to wall you in. Practical experience causes me to worry about the just in case argument because it will always give you a reason to deprive someone of something.

 

The UK has a proud history of democracy which is rightly deserved but What if   

[Tommikka]

7 minutes ago, Dogsbody100 said:

 

 

If I was one of these assholes shooting somewhere up I’d be thinking twice if I knew someone there also had a gun! 

However that doesn’t work when you look at the US.

In Parkland there was someone on scene with a gun, they ran away, the police arrived - all armed and waited

 

America suffers from mass shootings because the shooter is willing to shoot as many people as they can until they die

 

In Las Vegas he gathered all his weapons, barricaded himself in, started shooting and continued until they got to him 

 

There is a problem with the number of guns out there, the gun culture that sees the gun as a solution and something that brings the

concept to minds to go out for a shooting prepared to go out ‘in glory’

[Stratton Oakmont]

8 minutes ago, GenuineGerman said:

The UK has a proud history of democracy which is rightly deserved but What if   

We would wheel out shakin stevens and no wall would stand.

[Lozart]

10 minutes ago, GenuineGerman said:

 

They did and the SED shat themselves and decided just in case anyone else wants to leave we are going to wall you in. Practical experience causes me to worry about the just in case argument because it will always give you a reason to deprive someone of something.

 

The UK has a proud history of democracy which is rightly deserved but What if   

 

It makes sense to be sceptical but be careful it doesn't descend into paranoia.

[Impulse]

2 minutes ago, Lozart said:

 

It makes sense to be sceptical but be careful it doesn't descend into paranoia.

 

@Lozart is a reptilian trying to distract us from the lizard people who run the world.

[Lozart]

2 minutes ago, Impulse said:

 

Lozart is a reptilian trying to distract us from the lizard people who run the world.

 

[Druid799]

2 hours ago, jsmithski said:

I’m not that sure about that, let me give you an example. In Poland black powder guns are completely legal and don’t require you to even register them with the police (unlike modern firearms which require you to obtain a permit, pass medical exams etc). So I can now go to a store, buy a black powder revolver, some 10mm lead bullets, black powder, primers and (what is also legal) walk around the city with my revolver on me. Guess what. Since 2009 iirc when that law has been passed only one person has been shot using black powder rifle. One. Your arguments are invalid.

Hahaha now that is a slim excuse ! Your hardly going to get your local ‘hardmen’ going out on the town with a brace of duelling pistols stuck in the top of there breaches are you ?😳

in the uk you can buy and own any fully functioning pistol or rifle without a license just as long as it’s listed on the home office ‘prescribed obsolete calibers’ list But this doesn’t mean I’m going to rush out and stock up on Labele pinfire revolvers now does it ?
That excuse is as Danny glover says to Mel Gibson  in ‘Lethal weapon’ is “that’s thin , that’s really fucking thin !” 🤣 🤣🤣🤣

[Stratton Oakmont]

6 minutes ago, Druid799 said:

But this doesn’t mean I’m going to rush out and stock up on Labele pinfire revolvers now does it ?

Steady on, you will make heroshark/cromulon giddy talking like that.

[Adolf Hamster]

forget a tangent, the direction this thread has taken is approaching normal (meant in the angular sense of 90° from tangent rather than "ordinary")

[jsmithski]

Not sure I understood your responses but if the only argument is that black powder guns are not cool, then there’s no sense in continuing this conversation. Is such revolver less deadly than a glock?